LEO Attitude toward citizens and guns?

[Charles]

My Stepson is an Arson Investigator with a fire deparment in one of the big Dallas bedroom communities. As an arson investigator, he is also a police officer. He tells me the LEOs he knows are very much against citizens carrying guns, and think in fact only police should have guns.

I tell him that is not my experience, but then again, the only LEOs I know are ones I run across in the persuit of the shooting sports. They probably are not the average cop.

What say the wise ones on this board?

[Otto]

That probably becomes more true with each passing year. Cops a drawn from the general populace, and every year, the older ones retire and are replaced by younger ones who have been bombarded since birth by authoritarian propaganda against individual liberty and personal responsibility.

[Hobie]

Some of these young cops raised mostly in urban environments would just as soon as we would all march to and from work. They have to be educated that is they that serve and not the other way around. One even sees them in the gunshop buying guns.

[buckeyeshooter]

I would agree with your son. Where I live the law enforcement community does not repect the individuals right to be armed.

[Old Time Hunter]

This is what was posted in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel this morning:

A University of Wisconsin poll found 69% of residents oppose concealed carry. Moreover, 90% of Wisconsin sheriffs would opt out of issuing permits. Conducted in 2006, the findings are understandable when two years earlier one in five fatally shot officers had their partner's gun used against them, according to the Brady Campaign. These were criminal acts but they were committed with legal, registered guns.

Now to be fair, University poll was only at the University, I believe the last time that they did a state wide poll 69% of citizens were for concealed carry. But the point is, and I know this probably can be substantiated, the sheriffs are against concealed carry. I for one am for it, but if I was a deputy, I would want more control of my environment and to do that by me having the only gun on the block sure helps establish the authority figure. Even though it is wrong.

[KCSO]

Last LEAA survey we sent out indicated that over 80% of LEO's were in favor of CCW and were aganst more firearms legislation.

[BobM]

Late last year an older gentlemen from a neighboring county was taking his wife to our local hospital for surgery when his truck broke down about two blocks from the hospital. He had his CCW pistol with him and a locking case (as he had planned to leave in the truck-the hospital is posted against CCW) but asked the officer what he should do since his truck was now going to have to be towed to a repair shop. We held onto his pistol until after the surgery and he was able to obtain a loaner car. It wasn't a big deal to us (small rural town of about 12-13,000) but I've wondered what would've happened if he'd gone to one of the more urban hospitals.

[L_Kilkenny]

All LEO's are not created equal. Here in Iowa, county deputies are pretty laid back as are the police from medium sized towns. The highway patrol tend to be more "careful" and small town cops generally have less experience, are many times kinda young and just starting, can have "small man's disease" and tend to come unglued at the word GUN. Again, this is profiling and not hard and fast rules.

LK

[MrJudgeOC]

Going on 25 years as a LEO working in both the "big city" and rural. My observation pretty much mirrors society. 80/20 split. City folk, the 80 is against. Rural, the 80 is for.

Mike

[vancelw]

I am a Texas LEO. I personally am not aware of any peace officers with the attitude your stepson describes. I am guess the urban areas like DFW may have different attitudes, but I also know a lot peace officers from that area and know of none with that attitude. I may be that they only talk about it when they are with other officers they feel more comfortable with.

It is real easy to see how, the longer one stays in the LE business, you could start to develop a bias towards citizens possessing guns. When the overwhelming majority of the people you deal with every day are breaking the law, it would be hard not to apply your attitudes towards those people to a broader group of the citizenry.

An example would be Texas laws regarding Unlawfully Carrying a Weapon. Recently, the legislature relaxed those laws so that there were more instances that a person could legally have a handgun without having to have a concealed carry permit. The LEOs were concerned because it made it harder to get charges against those who carry guns when they are up to no good. LEOs have the right to carry a weapon 24/7 and forget that the average law-abiding citizen wants those same rights to remain uninfringed.

So the LEOs I know were distressed by the UCW laws being relaxed, but if you asked them directly, they have no problem with law-abiding citizens being armed. Sometimes, when you look at a problem from a different direction, it's not a problem at all.

[TCB in TN]

I have family and friends in LE, and they are very pro-civilian carry/ownership/etc. I know several others, and have heard them talk about a lot more that are completely against us poor civilians having guns. It is sad, but most of the US vs THEM mentality seems to be coming from them. My experiences with LEOs has been poor, had an officer wipe out and wreck right off my farm a few years back, I saw the whole thing as I was riding around my field on my horse. I rode over and helped him out, and he was a real donkey....... came up with some lame story about another driver running him off the road. Then ordered me to leave (when I was on my own property), I just got back on my horse and rode around the field until another officer I knew showed up and I stopped when he waved.

I was on my way to lunch a couple of months later and was pulled over in my old truck, wasn't speeding or anything, officer said it was in response to a Bolo (I had a dark blue 85 chevy that had been redone). He really pushed hard, and was rude about searching my vehicle. I asked him what time the supposed crime occurred, which he said was about two hours before. I gave him the plant number and told him to call HR, as they could confirm that I was at the plant during that time. He cussed me and said that I needed to learn some respect for LEOs, then got back into his cruiser and peeled out.

About two years ago I was pulled over for a seat belt violation. (Pulled out of one parking lot, into another less than 1/2 mile up the road). When the kid came to the window I handed him my DL and my CCW permit, and informed him that I was armed with a pistol in the console. He starred at me for about 5 or 10 seconds, then JUMPED back out of my window, and put his hand on his carry pc. I had to laugh, I told him to relax, if I was going to shoot him then I sure wouldn't have told him about the gun! I got a little speech about how only officers need guns, at which time I told him he needed to give me my ticket, and find himself a new job. My cousin knows him real well, and said that the guy will end up shooting someone. Said he was a complete coward. Unfortunately there seem to be more people like that getting into LE than the protect and serve guys.

[vancelw]

Unfortunately there seem to be more people like that getting into LE than the protect and serve guys.

I'll only say this...You get what you pay for.

It's not an attack on anything you said, I just see the trend in my own line of work as well. It's harder and harder for us to find good candidates with what we have to recruit them with.

[stretch]

What Vancelw said - it's certainly harder up here in Maine to get
really good folks in law enforcement. Not impossible, just a lot
harder than it used to be.

I used to have a neighbor across the street who was a really
good, respected cop, both in AND out of the law enforcement
community. Absolutely top-notch guy and a very good trooper.

He's dead now, and the guy who bought his house is a young
trooper. No comparison. Not a bad guy, but not in the same
league as his predecessor.

I know several LEOs, and I none that I know have a problem with
me or folks like me having guns. We're out in a rural area.

-Stretch

[Hobie]

One of the problems is that some police officers do look upon some of their employers as "civilians" when they are just the same. That is, I'm here to say, a good thing in this country as when you are in the military your civil rights are severely constricted. The trouble being is that these folks don't see it that way, they see it as a bad thing as they believe they are different and better than the rest of us. Some have been taught that and some come to believe it in having to deal with the underside of society.

[Otto]

One of the problems is that some police officers do look upon some of their employers as "civilians" when they are just the same. That is, I'm here to say, a good thing in this country as when you are in the military your civil rights are severely constricted. The trouble being is that these folks don't see it that way, they see it as a bad thing as they believe they are different and better than the rest of us. Some have been taught that and some come to believe it in having to deal with the underside of society.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here.

[SoftwarePro]

I have seen this attitude among LEO's where they differentiate between themselves and "civilians". The fact is that LEO's ARE civilians. A civilian, by definition, is someone who is not a member of their country's armed forces, in other words, the military.

I see this as an unfortunate by-product of the militarization of the police that has been going on for several decades now. It promotes an "us vs. them" mentality, "them" all too often being everyone who is not an LEO. When SWAT teams were first created, they were for unique and rare situations and hardly ever called out. Now they are used to serve routine warrants for non-violent crimes. The federal government is constantly giving surplus military equipment and free money to local LE organizations to encourage this militarization.

Personally, I'd like to see the term "law enforcement" eliminated altogether. It smacks of authoritarianism which is contrary to the principles on which this country was founded. Whatever happened to peace officers?

[donw]

i have two very close relatives who are in LE, neither has a problem with us 'citizens' being armed or owning guns.

i live rurally...it's not uncommon to hear gunshots.

one of the problems i see is that paranoid legislators, particularly here in California, actually CREATE problems with firearms where none exists(ed) before.

it's an old cliche' but: if only the police have guns, you have a police state.

IMO...there are some cops who should not be allowed to carry guns. they should, in fact, not be cops.

[SargeMarlin]

Just want to make two comments as a 17 year PO (2.5 as a state trooper in a rural state, 14.5 as a local PO in two jurisdictions of 5000 and now 70,000) now a Sgt., and a team leader on our swat team.

Alot of officers opinions on guns comes from experiences, good and bad, on the job through personal experience and through that of their field training officers. But it also comes from the way they were raised and the opportunities given to them while growing up. That being said, the hiring process is supposed to weed out those whose reactions are less than desirable, but you can't catch them all. We just hope that the training process will make them into what we hope will be a good common sense using officer and fair individual. To be treated as though they would wish to be treated if the role was reversed. Doesn't always happen, and times have made it tough to fire those who get too far into the career.

My second, and I do not want to sound disrespectful, but to the gentlemen who used the term "routine warrant", I would ask what exactly is that? The word routine is used too often because you never know, whether it be a traffic stop, domestic disturbance or that meaningless search warrant, who or when things go south and you end up on the wrong side of a right cross or a pistol.

I fear that I am on my soapbox, and that's not what I wanted. I am a life member of the NRA and firmly believe that all of us should carry guns. The old saying that an armed society is a polite society is very true where I come from.

SM

[SoftwarePro]

The optometrist in this article is who I had in mind when I said "routine warrant". I hadn't seen this particular article before it popped up in my google search just now, but it does address what I was saying rather nicely.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5439

[mod71alaska]

My only 1st hand experience with this issue happened a couple of years ago. I called the Belfast PD to ask what the open carry law was in Maine. The officer told me OC was legal in Maine, but then strongly advised me against it! Wait...I have a right to own the firearm and it's legal to open carry in Maine and I'm being strongly advised not to? The explanation was that if I OC in Belfast people would be nervous and they...the PD!...would be deluged with a lot of calls from concerned/scared citizens. Yes, I can understand the point of view of the police, but what was very glaring to me was how years of PCness taught in our schools and society have eroded the people's respect for the firearm and the rights we have to own and carry them to fear and avoidance. I really wanted to point out to the officer I was talking to that his primary responsibility was to uphold the law, and the oc law was on my side of this issue. I didn't pursue it further, however, because more than wanting to make that point I didn't want to get on the "wrong side of the law" as become someone they keep their eyes on!

[6pt-sika]

I live in a rural central Virginia community .

The older county cops and older state troopers are fine fellows !

HOWEVER the younger ones seem to have a Marine Corp/StormTrooper mentality .

If I'm not mistaken they are there to SERVE and PROTECT not inflict fear in law abiding citizens !

[Leverdude]

I'v had experiences on both ends of the spectrum. I live in a less gun tolerant area than many here, but most of the cops I know who actually know the place they work, meaning those who live here or came in when most lived here have a much different attitude towards the people. That often evaporates as they move up the ladder & turn into politicians though. I know our chief looks for reasons not to give out a permit but theres older gents at the gun store will swear he's a great guy they used to shoot right out back with 35 years ago. I dont have a meaningful answer though. I have cop friends I shoot with regularly & they invite me to the PD range occasionally. But theres also cops that have tried to intimidate me while there or at other ranges too. I think at the end of the day it just boils down to cops being people & any group of people is going to have some arrogant fools. Can be a meaningful difference if the arrogant fool has a badge though.

[kimwcook]

Well, guys, I've had contact with LEO's I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for and then there are other's I'd ride the range with. No different than any other profession. We try and weed out those that shouldn't carry a badge, but alas, that's an impossibility. So they're those that shouldn't, but do. Sorry, but it is what it is.

I'm a NRA life member and believe everyone should pack that can, legally and responsibly. I do honestly believe an armed society is a polite society. Most everyone in my department, about 50 commissioned, believe the same. Now there are those in my department that wouldn't pack a gun if they didn't have to. I've never understood that reasoning, but it's their life. They don't carry off duty either and again it's a reasoning I can't follow.

All I ask for is you let me know you're armed and depending upon the situation, I may be the only one armed during our contact. Don't worry, you'll get your piece back, if everythings kosher. And, given the recent rash in our country about cops being ambushed and killed apparently without cause other than wearing a badge, you're going to see more scrutiny from the LEO's you have contact with.

Been doing this job for just about 20 years full time with two years as a reserve.

I think where you're located in the country has a lot to do with LEO's perception of civilians being armed. Some Sheriff's and Police Chiefs are against people being armed. I don't agree, but again I'm starting to digress. That's the short story.

[rimrock]

Doesn't matter if you're LEO or just plain JOE--you have to actively think and evaluate your surroundings constantly when you're packing. And, far too many younger people have not been taught respect or patience. And, certainly far too few have been exposed to the responsibilities about firearms because that's not the parents' job!

[Lastmohecken]

I come from a rural area, and most LEO's here support CCW. I got stopped the other day, for speeding, I was doing 55 in a 35, just had my thoughts somewhere else. I got pulled over, and I was friendy, admitted to just plain not having my head on my driving. I told him I was going to feed my cousin's cattle, I also told I had a CCW and was carrying, plus it was ovious that I had a leveraction BLR right next to me in the front seat, which I had to reach over to get the proof of insuranace out of the glove box.

I gave him my drivers liscense, but I was having to look for my CCW, amongst my other cards, and he didn't even wait to see if I had it, he just ran my license, and gave me a written warning. He never even asked me where my weapon was, which they usually do.

I think it comes down to treating the officer with respect, and not fitting the stereiotype, of a person that usually gives them trouble. If you are clean cut, don't look like a undocumented worker, or druggy, long hair, etc, then you get a better deal. But if you are unfriendly, seem upset off for getting stopped in the first place, etc. Then It will not go as well for you. That's just the way it is.

[madman4570]

Up here in Northern Pa the State and Local Police seem very supportive of CCW

[Griff]

I beg to differ, LEO's are not civilians. Law enforcements agencies are all quasi-military by nature of their organizational structure and the necessity of how they must conduct their business. This alone seperates them from the "civilian" workplace. State law grants them exceptional rights. An example of which is the right to detain a civilian for questioning. This does NOT place them above the law, but rather bestows huge responsibilities on the officer excercising those rights and duties.

Some officers fail see the finer points of the differences, and the lack of differences in other areas, as do most civilians. When you spend your days & nights observing what one human can, and far too often, do to others, it can quickly lead you to conclude that most citizens don't deserve the 2nd Amendment. Unless officers areinvolved with some shooting discipline outside their job... they just don't see the lawful use of guns.

In general... highly politicized police departments encourage officers to parrot the party theme. Dallas, Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, etc. are prime examples. They are often specifically instructed to keep their opinions to themselves. I've seen some chiefs & division heads take this to the extreme. IMO, this usually leads to problems. Officers will reflect the atttutudes and characteristics of their superiors.

Some are just plain ol' bullies... and as such they won't want anything that might level the playing field. Others are just casualties of the job, as described above... and still others abhorr the fact that they themselves are obligated to carry.

JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PROESSION, the men & women of the "Thin Blue Line" are diverse and varied.

Retired P.I.G. (pride.integrity.guts)

[AJMD429]

One of the fundamental differences between the U.S. and other nations is that here, the citizens collectively grant the LEO's defined and limited priveleges to carry firearms when on duty and working for them. The LEO's are NOT supposed to have any real say-so over what firearms citizens own or carry, provided such citizens are NOT acting recklessly, commiting a violent crime, etc.

That is NOT to demean our LEO's who are dedicated enough and idealistic enough to literally put their lives on the line daily to try to promote civility and law and order. I can't imagine the stress of that job, especially given the current government's propensity to create unrealistic 'laws' that the demand be enforced. However, due to the friction created by such 'victimless' laws, I see an increasing DISRESPECT for LEO's by much of the public (as they see LEO's enforce ridiculous laws to please their masters), and DISTRUST for citizens by LEO's, as they start viewing each citizen as a 'perp' who just hasn't been caught yet. That is a shame, and destructive to society.

Hopefully, if we can reign in the current 'regime' to go back to reasonable laws about reasonable things, LEO's can get back to their true role as social protector, and the citizens can go about their daily routine without fear of arrest for some arcane EPA, OHSA, DEA, or other alphabet-agency violation.

In the RURAL areas, most LEO's are 'real people' and understand that the rest of us tend to own and carry firearms. In the URBAN areas, many of the LEO's have the "us vs. them" mentality and just want to beat down whoever gets in their way. I stay away from the urban areas when possible.

[76/444]

Well,... I haven't taken a poll, but, I can say with real assurance that most intelligent and experienced cops don't have an objection to CCW.

Actually, the majority I have met, know that only criminals conceal without a license, and are the true danger to law enforcement. This falls into the same blind mentality of the progressive left thinking posting signs with circles and slahes through pictures of guns, is going to turn armed criminals away!!

In my small town, when I was a mounted search and rescue deputy,... most deputies were hopeful that more honest citizens carried, since, in this remote area they could back them up. Not that this was a conscious thinking, but if asked what they thought , it would boil down to such conclusions the majority of the time. Heck, one never knows who possibly could save your bacon someday!

City cops?, I wouldn't have a clue,... never lived in a city in my entire life,.... thank you very much!

[Gun Smith]

A one of the older members of this forum, I would like to describe the way it was in the 40's and 50's. My parents raised us to respect a policeman yet not be afraid of him. We were raised to respect ALL our elders and we looked at adults differently then than today. Until you were an adult yourself you said sir and ma'am when addressing one.
Today, many kids are brought up by one parent families, usually the mother, who works, and who hasn't the time, or will, to control their kids. Kids today aren't taught to respect adults. The peers they run around with and learn from need to be considered "tough" and so they disrespect adults as a matter of principal. The kids in my neighborhood, including 8-10 year old's curse like sailors, including the girls, back talk anyone who tries to correct anything they do, try to tear up anything they can, and have very little respect for their parents.
It's no wonder they grow up the way they do. When they are adults, they look at the law as something to ignore and some do become dangerous. I can see why LEO's are wary.

For me, the simple solution to illegal use of firearms is mandatory life imprisonment for anyone using a firearm to commit a crime.

By the way, approximately 40% of all babies born in the U.S. are illegitimate. Isn't that a wonderful statistic?

[horsesoldier03]

Dallas is in deed an ANTI CCW force in my opinion. However, the Kaufman Sherrifs Dept provides CCW classes at a very affordable rate and support the idea 100%.

I beleive the large part on the Dallas and suburbs being anti gun for citizens stems from the constant errosion of our gun rights. They are recruiting more and more younger officers these days. Somehow they have convienced them that if guns are outlawed it will be one less worry for them on the street.

My daughter came home from school recently proclaiming a statement I was totally against. I asked her where she learned that, she replied that she had been hearing it at school for years.

The antis are slowly but surely desencitizing each generation regarding gun issues. Thats one of the reasons its important that we not only share hunting with our kids but the 2nd Amendment as well. Thank God the NRA and Second Amend. Assoc fights this daily.

[FWiedner]

I live just outside of Dallas. I've not experienced this anti-gun, anti-CCW attitude of which you speak, and I always have a gun with me.

The law says I can carry with a license, so I do. The law says I can own or possess certain other things, so I do that too.

IMO, what the local LEO thinks about anything, as long as I am "within the law" and not requiring his attention, is unimportant.

I find it all works out best when we avoid each other (or at least when I avoid him). That way neither one of us has to get bug-eyed about anything the other one is doing.

[Rexster]

I work for the "other" big city in Texas, and despite our size, we seem to largely fit the mold of the rural peace officer, as described by other posts in this thread. We see Dallas as the city that wants to think they are the Texas version of NYC or Boston, and treats the rest of Texas like we are lesser creatures. Not that all folks from Dallas are like that, of course.

Not to say we don't have bullies with badges. It happens. Some, especially the younger ones, are temporary bullies, still trying to adjust to their newly acquired authority, and will mellow.

I don't know the percentage, but most LEOs in my region respect the right of citizens to be armed. Before the days of legal handgun carry, plenty of citizens were given a pass by understanding LEOs. (CHLs did not exist until G.W. Bush became governor, and the right to carry unlicensed within one's vehicle was not straightened out until a couple of years ago.) Long guns have long been generally legal in Texas, of course, loaded or not, concealed or not.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I've seen this subject come up before on other forums. Someone posted a link to a survey. It was a pretty extensive survey from across the country. What it showed is basically the leo's will reflex the same mind set as the area they are from. If the area leans toward a liberal anti-gun mind set the majority of the LEO would lean that way as well. pretty much a blue state red state or urban verses rural thing.
On the whole, cops are no different than any other segment of society. You will find the extremes go both ways. I have a good customer that is a LEO and he is one of the most radical gun-rights guys I know.

[dbateman]

you should see how the police treat you over here
Au is no longer free

[horsesoldier03]

I live just outside of Dallas. I've not experienced this anti-gun, anti-CCW attitude of which you speak, and I always have a gun with me.

The laws says I can carry with a license, so I do. The law says I can own or possess certain other things, so I do that too.

IMO, what the local LEO thinks about anything, as long as I am "within the law" and not requiring his attention, is unimportant.

I find it all works out best when we avoid each other (or at least when I avoid him). That way neither one of us has to get bug-eyed about anything the other one is doing.

Dont live in Dallas anymore but visit quite frequently as well as try to keep up with things in the area. Cant remember the Chief of Police in Dallas' name but if it is still the same one I am pretty sure an interview that I read he stated it pretty up front.

[gamekeeper]

you should see how the police treat you over here
Au is no longer free

Ditto for the UK.

[FWiedner]

Dont live in Dallas anymore but visit quite frequently as well as try to keep up with things in the area. Cant remember the Chief of Police in Dallas' name but if it is still the same one I am pretty sure an interview that I read he stated it pretty up front.

The Chief of Police in Dallas is David M. Kunkle. Been been Chief for about 5 years and he's retiring in April.

I think he's done a good job. I feel a lot better about going into some parts of Dallas than I used to.

[firefuzz]

...but what was very glaring to me was how years of PCness taught in our schools and society have eroded the people's respect for the firearm and the rights we have to own and carry them to fear and avoidance.

Here is one of the initial problems to be addressed. My niece, a wonderful young lady, now teaches at the same school my family has attended for four generations. After a casual remark about home teaching at a family diner one Sunday she and I had a very long and in depth discussion about the things that teachers and public schools are teaching that are far beyond the text book by means of attitude and policy, a lot of which is laid down at the state level and beyond local control. It was an eye-opening discussion for her.

This school is a few miles outside my legal jurisdiction, although I carried a county commission also, and had/has several students whose parents are involved in law enforcement attending, including the sheriff's children. Many times these students, including my step-son, were picked up after school by the LEO parent coming home from work...still in uniform and armed. Parents, both LEO and not, waited together in a group along side the parking area and enjoyed visiting as the children were led to the bus area by their respective teachers. We also talked to and waved to the kids as they passed, a priceless PR opportunity. One of the teachers, a young female, took offense to the fact that we were still armed and complained to the elementry principal who in turn approached three of us about it one afternoon.

For some reason, probably because I was oldest and had attended that same school, I was un-officially pushed into the position of spokesperson of the group. Our situation was explained to the principal, who had no problem with us or our guns, but had to express this teachers concern. We offered to meet with the teacher, in an effort to let her get to know us and our situation and to personally hear her concerns and attempt to lay any fears she might have to rest...she ademently refused and moved her complaint to the superintendent's office. The super, a man I had developed a close relationship with years before as a street cop in another jurisdiction, called me at home and we had a healthy discussion about the situation.

His response to the teacher was that he saw no problem with the existing situation and that he was not about to turn away the presence of up to a half a dozen armed police officer's presence at the school, and the public knowledge that we were there, when it wasn't costing the school district a penny for the at least preceived security we provided. (this school has no security force other than the teachers)

It is my understanding that the young lady left at the end of the next school year, none of us ever knew who she was or got to talk to her about why our open presence concerned her so. To our group that was a sad situation as she's probably gone on to another school without the opportunity for us to learn from her or her from us.

Rob

[firefuzz]

On the whole, cops are no different than any other segment of society. You will find the extremes go both ways. I have a good customer that is a LEO and he is one of the most radical gun-rights guys I know.

Most of the cops that I know in my area are of this nature. In fact several active and retired LEO's were strongly involved in passing the CCW laws in my state.

When I was a deputy sheriff in the early 80's, usually working at least 30 minutes from back-up, on several occassions I had "civilians" stop and render aid to me in not so pleasent situations where I outnumbered sometimes three or four to one. When I accepted and offered them the use of a firearm the standard response was generally something like, "No thanks, I've got my own." Had these people not been armed would they have been willing to stop? Probably so, in the area I worked...but maybe not. In at least three of these situations I'm absolutely positive their presence prevented the shedding of blood....I was going to do my job and I wasn't going to take a beating from multiple suspects. On one of these occassions I remember, I'll remember it for the rest of my life, my "assistant" told a particularly mouthey suspect "Mister, you had better shut up...he may not hit you for your mouthing him but I garnendamntee you I will!!!"

So as a LEO (retired) I can garendamntee you I support the "civilian" right to carry, as well as Keep and Bear Arms, and am thankful for it.

Rob

[Old Time Hunter]

Here in Wisconsin, we do have the right to "Open" carry, but unfortunately the local police departments take a negative view of this and find other ways to counter this "right". As in the example in this article: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/39722082.html, the police have now caused more cost, waste of time, and distraction by making bogus arrests to "educate" the public that carrying is not going to be tolerated. All this, even though Wisconsin's top law man, the A.G. J.B. Van Hollen(he is a gun right activist! Pro hunter too) had the state Constitution clarified as that it is a RIGHT to open carry anywhere in the state of Wisconsin, which stood up in the Wisconsin Supreme Court and the federal Supreme Court (thank you Van Hollen!). Yet, as a unified front the organized League of Police Chiefs here in Wisconsin publicly dennouced the ruling and warned that they will direct THEIR officers to arrest, detain, and confiscate any one "open" carrying...even though it is a citizens right.

The first thing I see that needs to be changed is the attitude of the hiarchy of the LE establishment, they are only there by the citizens bidding and the officers are not THEIRS! They truly believe that they are above the law!

[Old Time Hunter]

To me this is the most important statement pertaining to a citizens rights and where it conflicts with LE, from the article in the link from the previous post:

"The reason people are upset about this is it's not about guns. It's about civil liberties. And we obviously have a property issue. There was no warrant issued, no exigent circumstances, no permission to enter the property, yet the police stormed in with guns drawn and put my life at risk," Krause said. Asked why he was carrying a gun to plant a tree, Krause said, "There's no requirement to justify why you're able to exercise constitutional rights. I and everyone else are able to go to church, they're able to vote, they're able to speak their mind. Even though the city might not like it, we have that right."

[76/444]

Here in Wisconsin, we do have the right to "Open" carry, but unfortunately the local police departments take a negative view of this and find other ways to counter this "right". As in the example in this article: http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/39722082.html, the police have now caused more cost, waste of time, and distraction by making bogus arrests to "educate" the public that carrying is not going to be tolerated. All this, even though Wisconsin's top law man, the A.G. J.B. Van Hollen(he is a gun right activist! Pro hunter too) had the state Constitution clarified as that it is a RIGHT to open carry anywhere in the state of Wisconsin, which stood up in the Wisconsin Supreme Court and the federal Supreme Court (thank you Van Hollen!). Yet, as a unified front the organized League of Police Chiefs here in Wisconsin publicly dennouced the ruling and warned that they will direct THEIR officers to arrest, detain, and confiscate any one "open" carrying...even though it is a citizens right.

The first thing I see that needs to be changed is the attitude of the hiarchy of the LE establishment, they are only there by the citizens bidding and the officers are not THEIRS! They truly believe that they are above the law!

What is needed in your state is a group of open carry citizens, to gather together and frequent local retail stores and restaurants. If any LEO harassment entails,... bring a legal suit by all against the offending department.

If the laws are as clear as you state,... a win is obvious.

All that is needed , are citizens willing to stand up for their Rights, in court!

[Old Time Hunter]

All that is needed , are citizens willing to stand up for their Rights, in court!

That is what Krause did in the article...and he won, but the LE's will continue the harrassment irrelevant.

[AJMD429]

I know our chief looks for reasons not to give out a permit but theres older gents at the gun store will swear he's a great guy they used to shoot right out back with 35 years ago. I dont have a meaningful answer though.

The only meaningful answer would be eliminate the 'permit' system entirely, and allow everyone to carry. If and when someone acted criminally or irresponsibly, THEN they could be charged.

The social 'good' to come of a permit system is that it gives LEO's one additional charge to use when arresting the hoodlem-type on something 'light' like vandalism or tresspass or making threats/assault or whatever, and our court system lets those people off in a heartbeat, otherwise. Adding 'unlicensed handgun possession' does help clear the streets a bit of those types, but it doesn't do that much good, and if the social 'harm' to a permit system is that the good guy has to walk down that street un-armed, then the 'permit' system should be scrapped. Perhaps that is unfortunate, but blame the anti-gun LEO's for destroying it, not the NRA.

I respect the LEO community, and 90% of the individuals in it, but you simply cannot have a stable and safe society for long if the collective citizenry (call it 'militia' or whatever) does not have the upper hand defensively against the armed agents of their government. Governments don't generally 'nuke' their own citizens, so it isn't a matter that free citizens need tanks and jets and bombs, but governments do regularly abuse their own citizens with arbitrary arrest, shakedowns, property seizures, etc. - things that a little potential 'pushback' could deter.

Bottom line - if the LEO's and their 'bosses' would be truly reasonable and allow CCW licensure to the ordinary, law-abiding citizen, the permit system could work just fine. When the LEO's start to abuse their ability to deny CCW permits, then THEY are causing a problem, and should lose their 'right' to decide who carries and who does not.

[76/444]

All that is needed , are citizens willing to stand up for their Rights, in court!

That is what Krause did in the article...and he won, but the LE's will continue the harrassment irrelevant.

Well,... when it becomes so obvious that these are blatant violations of their 2nd amendment Rights,... and juries start awarding multimillion dollar judgments against the municipalities who allow such fascist LEO's to stay employed, as well as cash judgments against the individual officers.... I think there will be a change of heart and protocol.


Just one man's opinion.

[PaulB]

That just puts the burden on the taxpayers. The individual cop making the unlawful arrest needs to be sued.

They have to be educated that is they that serve and not the other way around.

I have come to the conclusion this is a naive view. Back here in the real world, when you give a group of people the job of "serving and protecting" you, you have immediately put yourself in a subservient position to them. There is no getting around this fact (sheepdogs cannot look at sheep as equals). It's no wonder that, over time, this group of people starts to look at all of those who they supposedly protect, with contempt.

There are obviously contributing factors to this, a major one being the kinds of lowlifes cops have to deal with every day, giving them a jaded view of humanity. But the main problem is that we delegate protection to others.

There shouldn't be cops. There should only be a county sheriff (if anything at all), with the ability to deputize trusted citizens as needed. Needless to say, this can only work if governments stop making everything in the world illegal. First thing that has to go is the war on (some) drugs. All gun laws should be eliminated. All traffic laws and most traffic signs and signals should be eliminated (as has been successfully demonstrated in some European cities).

In other words, freedom is the solution to these problems.

[76/444]

That just puts the burden on the taxpayers. The individual cop making the unlawful arrest needs to be sued.

They have to be educated that is they that serve and not the other way around.

I have come to the conclusion this is a naive view. Back here in the real world, when you give a group of people the job of "serving and protecting" you, you have immediately put yourself in a subservient position to them. There is no getting around this fact. It's no wonder that, over time, this group of people starts to look at all of those who they supposedly protect, with contempt.

There are obviously contributing factors to this, a major one being the kinds of lowlifes cops have to deal with every day, giving them a jaded view of humanity. But the main problem is that we delegate protection to others.

There shouldn't be cops. There should only be a county sheriff (if anything at all), with the ability to deputize trusted citizens as needed. Needless to say, this can only work if governments stop making everything in the world illegal. First thing that has to go is the war on (some) drugs.

In other words, freedom is the solution to these problems.

Well,... I just have to disagree, Paul.

When the community chest runs dry because of these individual LEO's,... citizens will take better notice of what is going on in their community, imo. nothing like MONEY, or the lack there of, to get people's attention!

As to your comment about LEO attitudes towards those they receive a income from, to protect,... because of dealing the scumbags of the world,...HEY!!! that's the job. What did they expect,... a walk in the park, Barney Fife style?

If they can't handle it without taken their frustrations out on unarmed honest law abiding citizens,.. they should take a sabbatical, quit,...or be sued and then fired!

I have no sympathy or patients for a dog that bites the hand that feeds it!


just one man's opinion.

[Old Time Hunter]

When the community chest runs dry because of these individual LEO's,... citizens will take better notice of what is going on in their community, imo. nothing like MONEY, or the lack there of, to get people's attention!

They'll just raise my taxes... remember we are subservient and sheep to be herded.

[PaulB]

If they can't handle it without taken their frustrations out on unarmed honest law abiding citizens,.. they should take a sabbatical, quit,...or be sued and then fired!

Problem is, they aren't fired. Not all of them anyway (although some departments are better at keeping the riffraff out than others).

They aren't sued either.

I'm not talking about what should be. I'm talking about what is.