OT - John Deere 650 problem

[AJMD429]

My nephew's 1970's-era John Deere 650 has been stored at our place for the last year until he finds a place he can use it, and we've put maybe 10-20 hours on it, finding it runs well, despite the usual dings, rust, and some minor repairs needing done. The other day when it was super-cold, we started it to plow snow, and he was shocked that the hydraulics "wouldn't work". As a novice to the farm-tractor world, I'd read the manual when we adopted it, and knew there was a bypass-valve which you could turn to warm-up the fluid when the weather was cold. He'd never heard of such a thing (we'd also known it from when we had a bulldozer a few years ago with a similar feature). Anyway, we went to let it idle and warm up awhile with the bypass on, and were ready to use that time to dig out the scraper-blade from the frozen ground it had settled in to. My nephew, still bothered that something must be wrong with his tractor due to the hydraulic 'not working' right at startup in the zero-degree weather, decided it was silly to have to pick-axe the rear blade out of the frozen ground, and just told my son to 'pop the clutch' to jerk the blade from the ground. Having heard (dunno if true) horror stories when we had the bulldozer of dozers being damaged majorly if their tracks were frozen into the ground and someone tried to 'drive' them loose, I started to tell my son not to do so, but it was too late, and there was a loud 'pop' noise, then a repeated 'klunk' every half-second or so accompanied by a jerk of the whole tractor, until I reached over and shut off the ignition. We hoped it was just a clutch with surface rust or ice causing it not to slip appropriately, but now I'm not so sure.

We DID still have to pick-axe the rear blade loose before the tractor would move, so I guess I was right about not trying to force equipment to move if it is frozen-in, at least in terms of it not working anyway. Was I also right about it being potentially damaging to the tractor...?

The machine since then runs fine, shifts into all ranges ('hi' is 2wd, and 'lo is 4wd) and gears ok, but there is a decided 'klunk' you feel and hear approximately every revolution of the rear wheels. It seems to be from the left side, but that's hard to tell. It isn't too noticeable if you're on soft ground or going slow pushing a bit of snow, but on pavement it is really a hard jerk and loud noise, regardless of what gear or range you're in.

I'm thinking a tooth may be off some big gear in the rear differential, but I know nothing at all about tractors. The tires are old, starting to get fine cracks, and the rims have rust around the valve-stem hole made worse I expect by the calcium chloride solution I'm told they weighted the tires with. The tires flex similarly throughout the revolution, so I don't think the solution froze, or that there is merely a tire defect we're feeling - the noise is too hard and metallic for that. The only other thing I could think of was if a shear-pin somewhere had sheared, but I'd think all that would do would be make one wheel not have power (I haven't really figured out how to 'test' that; both seem to spin a bit on slick ice if the bucket hits deep snow).

Is this something we could inspect ourselves and at least diagnose without renting a trailer and taking it to a dealer?

Suggestions welcome.

Any ideas?

[Don McDowell]

Check the transmission and rear end fluids. Those ol JD"s can leak around the covers, and the water seeps in on top of the oil turning to ice in cold weather. Makes a mess until things gets thawed out.
Also go to true hydraulic or hythran type fluid in the hydraulic case.

[wecsoger]

I'm scared to think that part of the gear/axle in the back may be chipped off. If so, you may be damaging more internal parts running it. Yeah, roll it off on a trailer and get it to the dealership or a good mechanic.

Now, my apologies, but some people should not be allowed tools other than a rubber hammer and iron anvil. Initially it sounds like he ruined a good old piece of machinery. You obviously know to read a manual, which he seems incapable of. And also incapable of keeping up routine maintenance like keeping parts like tires cleaned.

Please report back here on the diagnosis. If it turns out bad, he'll probably just blame the mechanic. Or shoddy John Deere parts.

(sigh)

[Don McDowell]

If you have a covered shop to work on it, pick up a repair manual for it from some place like valubilt.com. Those early JD's aren't hard to work on, the hard part will be finding gears,shafts etc if there is something broke needing replaced. Good news is most of the bearings are timken and can/should be available at Napa ,Car quest etc.

[morgan in nm]

I'll call around for you but it is a bit too modern for me to know how to fix it for ya.

Now if it were made prior to 1960, I would probably even have a book.

[cowboykell]

My guess is that there is a broken cog (tooth) on the bull gear.

[fatoldfool]

thats a tough little tractor and it take abuse to break it. I am going to guess a pinion tooth or ring gear tooth was popped. They aren't that hard to work on if you have a shop/repair manual. I would not operate it until it's inspected and repaired. Good luck on it!

[Rusty]

Doc,
Just for the record you might mention to your nephew about what goes on with heavy equipment in the winter. My BIL was a mechanic on a strip mine in WV back in the late 70's and early 80's till they moved down here. In the winter if they shut down for the night for some reason they would often have to spend much of the next day freeing up the cat tracks on the big D8's they used because they were frozen to the ground. They just wouldn't have the HP to break themselves loose.

[Sixgun]

Doc,
I agree with the other boys on a broken tooth. Ain't nothin' to pop off the diff cover, drain the fluid and make a visual inspection. At least you will know what has to be done. If nothings wrong, just clean the innards up real good, smooth up the contact surfaces, add silicone "form a gasket" and fill her up with gear oil.

It might have been near empty of gear oil.

Before you drain the oil etc., you can lift up the rear end so the tires will be in the air, then (after blocking the front wheels ) run it in gear. Get a hose (or a doctors stethascope--I know, its spelled wrong) about 3/4" to 1", stick one end in your ear and poke around with the other end near where you think the noise is coming from. The noise will get real loud where the problem is---I use this method all the time in finding which valve, etc. is knocking.------------Sixgun

[AJMD429]

Thanks for all the responses. From the symptoms, and the consensus I get here, I'm thinking a tooth on a big gear bit the dust. I'll see if the owner wants me to check it out or what. I feel bad it's broken when in our possession, but the owner was the one who wanted to 'pop it loose' vs. dig it out. Oh well, stuff can be fixed, and I know those tractors are well built; I just wish I had one of my own.

I'll post an 'update' when I find more out. (I'll wait until someone is griping about "too many OT posts" though, just so I can annoy them even more... ).

[Nath]

Doc,
I agree with the other boys on a broken tooth. Ain't nothin' to pop off the diff cover, drain the fluid and make a visual inspection. At least you will know what has to be done. If nothings wrong, just clean the innards up real good, smooth up the contact surfaces, add silicone "form a gasket" and fill her up with gear oil.

It might have been near empty of gear oil.

Before you drain the oil etc., you can lift up the rear end so the tires will be in the air, then (after blocking the front wheels ) run it in gear. Get a hose (or a doctors stethascope--I know, its spelled wrong) about 3/4" to 1", stick one end in your ear and poke around with the other end near where you think the noise is coming from. The noise will get real loud where the problem is---I use this method all the time in finding which valve, etc. is knocking.------------Sixgun

Sixgun has it, I would listen first as described and if it is the diff case drain and inspect whats come out with the oil, then open the diff and take a peek,,,,,
If the clutch was rusty from standing it would not be as progressive as normal and just grab hard, which could of been to much for the crown wheel.

Good luck, Nath.

[CJM]

Don't try to do any heavy pulling until you get the ring gear replaced. It's a helical design gear so as one tooth is just leaving contact, the next tooth is in full contact, and the next tooth after is just entering contact. With one tooth missing, you can move it ok on the two teeth that are just entering and ending contact, but try to do any hard pulling and they will also snap off and you will ruin the pinion gear as well as the already ruined ring gear, and the tractor won't move at all.

[AJMD429]

Yep. No using it until checked out.

[gimdandy]

After you find a manual ,and then listen with stethoscope and subsequent oil cavity draining , a judicious inspection of oil will probably lead to the problem.Ring and pinions are usually sold as a set .When you find problem used tractor yards are a good way to go many times.Had a 650 20 years ago and bought used parts in a town north of here "Nampa Tractor Salvage 208-467-4430 ". Also seems like the 650 didn't have a 3rd member inspection cover but came out the side after you removed wheel, axel , and axel housing. Don't think his problem is going away on it's own , however .

[peabody]

hello guys, this is my 1st post.
im interested in leverguns, have several myself, but could not stay away from a ''tractor'' post.
ha.

my old john deere 51' ''A'' is retired now, wagon rides , and cow checker now. but still love the oldies.

was just wonderin ? how did the 650 turn out ?

fixed ? ....... anyhoo. 2 years ago, i couldn't resist, new holland had a sale going on, no interest , no payments
for one year, zero percent interest ..... ahhhh, shucks. bought an open station TN60A 4x4 with bale spikes front and rear, [love the loader] buckett and buckett teeth. how did i ever gits around without 4x4 ? man, i love this thing !!!

and now i wonder ? why oh why ? didn't i buy one of these 20 years ago ? be paid for now. ha.

and yes, i plug her in , cold weather, keep her warm with block heater, and after i start it, i run the hydrulics , and cycle the oil, b4 i putt a load on her.

they do make a magnetic [sp] block heater, , that would help with the older tractors,
i used to putt bar-bee-que bricks in buckett, [steel] and set under tractor after thay turn red,sure helped to start.

wow, i wrote a book !!! ha.

peabody

[Nath]

Hi peabody.

I allways wonder why no one makes a heater that goes around the battery/s, cold kills batteries for sure, or do they?

Nath.

[Don McDowell]

Hey Peabody, my 49 A with the factory wide front, and power block engine is my salvation and mainstay tractor when none of the newer ones want to do the work, especially in cold weather.

[peabody]

Hi peabody.

I allways wonder why no one makes a heater that goes around the battery/s, cold kills batteries for sure, or do they?

Nath.

well ? ya ? not knowing about any comercial batterys warmers ?

but my uncle uses a old electric blankett, on his 1206 farmall. just drapes the blankett over the hood, lets it hang down ,
covers both batterys box's... course its in the barn, and he uses the block heater too. seems to work ok ?

peabody

[44magHunter]

Yep, AJMD has it right. It was frozen to the ground and we were going to dig it out, until my cousin had the bright idea to 'just pop the clutch.' I knew nothing of tractors being frozen to the ground at that time, so I just listened to my 30-some-odd-year-old cousing who had had this tractor for years and years. I was already in the seat and I had already put it into gear and popped it when my dad said "S-T-O-P-!" The tractor had already started to jerk very violently and make all kind of grinding noises when I realized what my pa had just said. I flipped the key (yes, it was me, not my dad, like he said) and turned the throttle all-the-way down to shut it off, but it was already too late. When we were done, we had it out of the ground after using some levers to loosen it up a bit. When my cousin was driving it down the driveway, I noticed a slight popping sound every once in a while. I didn't say anything about it because I figurd it was just the rear 3-point hitch clanking back-and-forth.

The next time we got it out to use it was a few days ago and it started up just fine. My dad had tole me to use it to plow the 6" of snow that we had gotten that night before. As I said, it started up nice and it went into EVERY gear nicely. I probably used it for an hour or so when I started noticing the noise. I couldn't tell my dad cause he wasn't home. When he got home, I forgot to tell him and when we took it over to the neighbores house to plow their drive, I remembered to tell him. He waid just to be careful and if it got real bad or got stuck, just to leave it and wait for his help. It never go worse, so I just finished the job and parked it. The next morning, me and pa went over there to take it back to the carport/tractorport. This time it was Dad driving, since he wanted to know exactly what the noise sounded like and felt like. He drove over to the house and said he thought it was a big tooth being popped off of one of the big gears, which sounds right to me. We parked it and have not tried to run it since.

I appreciate all the advice you guys are giving us, and I hope it all goes well. I hope this doesn't put me in any trouble seein' as how it was my cousin and the owner of the tractor who told me to just pop the clutch........
Again, thanks for all help/advice given.

[peabody]

Hey Peabody, my 49 A with the factory wide front, and power block engine is my salvation and mainstay tractor when none of the newer ones want to do the work, especially in cold weather.

sadly, don. i havent started the ''A'' in a long time, probly will this spring.

mine is tricycle front end, no power steering, and to be honest. im getting old n' slow.ha.

really hard to steer in the cold, its just so nice, just to get on the new holland, power steering and shuttle shift.

this little 3 cylinder diesel, just sips fuel. but ? to keep hours off of it, i'll use the ''A'' whenever i can in good weather.
i also have a farmall ''H'' that belonged to a good friend of my grandfather, im restoring it. but ? got laid off a year ago, untill times get better, ? dunno... hopes to someday.

i remember as a kid plowing with a two bottom trip, in the moonlight, in the south bottoms at the homeplace, [the early 60's]

grandpap also , in those days had a 36' john deere 'B' .... would pull 2 14''s ... also had a reg-12 farmall... wishes i knew where they are today.
we used to feed small round bales with the B, in the winter.[cause u could use the brakes to steer,.ha.] pulling the hay around on a sled .made of hedge posts. and plyboard.
if the snow was too deep we'd use jack n' jake our two big mules.

ahhh heck.... story time !!!

once we was tring to move a large water tank, with the B, henry springs , a neighbor was helping.
he jumps on the B, and my dad hooked the mules to the front of the B, hollers back at henry. ready ?!!
dad takes off, mules just a lunging, moved to where he wanted it....

about that time henry says.....ok !!! i got it in gear now !!

ha.

peabody

[stretch]

Nath, I used to have a battery heater in an old Mercury I had.

It was a mat that you put the battery on and plugged in.
Worked great!

One day I took the battery out for something - clean terminals
or somesuch - and the leads had corroded off the mat!
Not so good - a firestarter for sure.

It worked well while it lasted, though.

I've also used radiator hose heaters and block heaters. Once I had
a pad heater that was glued to the bottom of the oil pan with
silicone adhesive. It worked pretty well! One tries these things
up in Maine - especially before one heats and insulates the garage.


-Stretch

[JerryB]

Peabody welcome to the forum.

[peabody]

Peabody welcome to the forum.

thanks

[33wcfshooter]

Always let diesels warm up for at least five min. when it's cold sometimes an hour or more(on trucks sometimes longer esp. before using the jake brake). When the weather is cold we use a gun heater and drape tarps over the rigs so the heat gets on the oil pan (also keep the block heater plugged in while were doing this).Never use starting fluid with a rig with glow pluggs. Never force equipment when it's frozen or in deep ruts (had a relative brake the spindle right off a loader). On the clicking noise your hearing like the others have said could be a broken cog. Also, you might want to check the rims (we've had some crack over the years) look around the lugs for cracks. You also might want to check the rims for rusting through if the tires are loaded (cloride eats the rims inside and sometimes you see it seeping out and this could be what your hearing). John Deere make great stuff but I think you might want to have it looked at before running it again,if something is out of line it can cause bigger problems (had a fan pully get out of line once and threw ballance off the motor and next thing we knew the big Detroit Diesel needed a total rebuild $$$). Hope some of these things help I work for my family's dairy farm (been working with tractors and trucks since I was 4 or 5) and these are things we learned over the years.

[Marc]

One little gear tooth? You all are pikers! When I was a kid on the farm running tractors I broke at least two ring and pinon gears, maybe three, a tooth out of at least one tractor transmission gear, several tractor axles and a tooth out of the old man's pickup transmission. That's all I can remember for sure. You fellers are just getting started! A note on pickups. It is not a good idea to drive a pickup across a frozen plowed field. It's hard on equipment!

I am replacing the rims on my 1952 Massey Harris 33 right now. The centers were riveted to the rims so I drilled out the rivets and I have been drilling holes to bolt the new rims to the old centers. The calcium chloride ate the old rims up. They were splitting badly. It finally got so bad I was afraid to move it. Incidentally these are John Deere rims. It has JD1260 stamped on them. The same rim that JD used on the A. I guess Massey used some John Deere rims.

They way you keep the battery warm is take it out and put it somewhere warm. We used to drain the anti freeze and take the battery out. To start we also would get some coals out of the wood stove to heat the oil up. I live in warm and balmy southern California now.

[peabody]

One little gear tooth? You all are pikers! When I was a kid on the farm running tractors I broke at least two ring and pinon gears, maybe three, a tooth out of at least one tractor transmission gear, several tractor axles and a tooth out of the old man's pickup transmission. That's all I can remember for sure. You fellers are just getting started! A note on pickups. It is not a good idea to drive a pickup across a frozen plowed field. It's hard on equipment!

I am replacing the rims on my 1952 Massey Harris 33 right now. The centers were riveted to the rims so I drilled out the rivets and I have been drilling holes to bolt the new rims to the old centers. The calcium chloride ate the old rims up. They were splitting badly. It finally got so bad I was afraid to move it. Incidentally these are John Deere rims. It has JD1260 stamped on them. The same rim that JD used on the A. I guess Massey used some John Deere rims.

They way you keep the battery warm is take it out and put it somewhere warm. We used to drain the anti freeze and take the battery out. To start we also would get some coals out of the wood stove to heat the oil up. I live in warm and balmy southern California now.

wishes we had your weather !!!!

but, i dont want to live in california. i'm thinkin ? head to belize. english speaking down there.
be a beach bum... ha.

[madman4570]

Hey Peabody, my 49 A with the factory wide front, and power block engine is my salvation and mainstay tractor when none of the newer ones want to do the work, especially in cold weather.

sadly, don. i havent started the ''A'' in a long time, probly will this spring.

mine is tricycle front end, no power steering, and to be honest. im getting old n' slow.ha.

really hard to steer in the cold, its just so nice, just to get on the new holland, power steering and shuttle shift.

this little 3 cylinder diesel, just sips fuel. but ? to keep hours off of it, i'll use the ''A'' whenever i can in good weather.
i also have a farmall ''H'' that belonged to a good friend of my grandfather, im restoring it. but ? got laid off a year ago, untill times get better, ? dunno... hopes to someday.

i remember as a kid plowing with a two bottom trip, in the moonlight, in the south bottoms at the homeplace, [the early 60's]

grandpap also , in those days had a 36' john deere 'B' .... would pull 2 14''s ... also had a reg-12 farmall... wishes i knew where they are today.
we used to feed small round bales with the B, in the winter.[cause u could use the brakes to steer,.ha.] pulling the hay around on a sled .made of hedge posts. and plyboard.
if the snow was too deep we'd use jack n' jake our two big mules.

ahhh heck.... story time !!!

once we was tring to move a large water tank, with the B, henry springs , a neighbor was helping.
he jumps on the B, and my dad hooked the mules to the front of the B, hollers back at henry. ready ?!!
dad takes off, mules just a lunging, moved to where he wanted it....

about that time henry says.....ok !!! i got it in gear now !!

ha.

peabody

DocAJ---I know guy's that have had similar problems in real cold weather/ letting them sit with the JD 650's and found it to actually be a brake issue!


peabody---Good idea before you do start your JD A (change the 12qts of oil first)Bet right now if you even tried there is a lot of moisture in there"frozen" from condensation/gasket leakage and it will break the shear pin that was designed to prevent engine damage not letting it turn over.Been there done that.
I have got to say those tricycle A's with a big front blade/double rings/ really move snow quick.
Having 2----B's 1---H 1----A The A really is a Hoot (It's like a big Harley)

But honestly mostly use the Yamaha 700 Grizz(in the Garage)

[Marc]

Changing the oil might be good advice. I changed the transmission oil in the Massey. According to the book it holds 13 gallons. I drained 15 gallons of chocolate colored gunk out of it so it had over 2 gallons of water in the transmission. The axle seals were leaking bad so there had to be more than two gallons of water in it. The gear shift boot was falling apart so I suppose a lot of it leaked in there from rain water running down the shift lever.

California would be a nice place to live if all the commies left! I happen to live in a conservative area and a lot of California is conservative but we are drowned out by the Hollywood and Frisco crowd.