Trade Musket

[flounderjig]

Looking at various trade muskets in 20 gauge. Any one had one and what did they like or dislike? Looking at Northstar West, Pedersoli, and Loylist Arms. Loylist being the cheapest. Have done kits before from Gander Mt. in the past. Like to do the work to a certain extent, but I am no expert. Got a Dixie catalog, looked at Track of the Wolf website. Any heads up would be appreciated.

[Don McDowell]

They make for a pretty good 20 ga shotgun, but don't hurl roundballs as well as one would like.
The biggest thing to worry about is if the lock and frizzen are properly timed and hardened.

[fatoldfool]

I think I have played with them all at one time or another. My present (it is the keeper) smooth flinter fusil is a MOLD & GUN SHOP Type D fusil kit. I can email pics if you would like. Mine was completed and tuned by Jim Wheeler. I can supply a photo of a target with 3 holes touching and a fourth about 4 inches out, fired by the builder.
I also have a partially finished Type D kit I will sell for $550 plus shipping. Nice striped maple stock, barrel inletted, breech plug installed and inletted, trigger plate inletted, all holes drilled & parts threaded. Butt plate installed. More details by email & I can take detailed pics.

[Nath]

I think I have played with them all at one time or another. My present (it is the keeper) smooth flinter fusil is a MOLD & GUN SHOP Type D fusil kit. I can email pics if you would like. Mine was completed and tuned by Jim Wheeler. I can supply a photo of a target with 3 holes touching and a fourth about 4 inches out, fired by the builder.
I also have a partially finished Type D kit I will sell for $550 plus shipping. Nice striped maple stock, barrel inletted, breech plug installed and inletted, trigger plate inletted, all holes drilled & parts threaded. Butt plate installed. More details by email & I can take detailed pics.

Hoorrray more front stuffing guys

Nath.

[gamekeeper]

I too have looked at the Pedersoli trade musket.
I like the look of the gun but I have had problems with Italian made flintlocks, both Armi-Sport and Pedersoli. So until I can afford a Trade Musket with a decent lock made in the US of A, I'll pass.

[Nath]

I too have looked at the Pedersoli trade musket.
I like the look of the gun but I have had problems with Italian made flintlocks, both Armi-Sport and Pedersoli. So until I can afford a Trade Musket with a decent lock made in the US of A, I'll pass.

Hi GK, some folk have had to reharden frizzens from new on Peders! Some have welded or rivited some harder steel on the frizzen.
I have reworked locks some. The common one is not being able to tighten the lock parts screws without binding it all up. There are ways around these issues but it is sad we have to.

The only Pedersoli I did not need to touch was a Mortimer shotgun, that was perfect from day one.

Nath.

[gamekeeper]

Nath you are spot on. I don't mind fixin' guns I pick up cheap but I sure don't like fixin' ones that are straight from the factory.

[hondo1892]

Caywood also make trade guns. They have good locks and you can get them "in the white". Meaning they are put togather just nothing else done. Larry Zorn from the Mold and Gun Shop has good guns also and he may have them in the white also. Tip Curtis has guns in the white but I don't know if he has any trade guns. I don't know his number off hand but can get it if your interested.

[Hobie]

I would get a good Type D Fusil if I were to do it over. 20 ga. is the PERFECT gauge for the east coast.

[fatoldfool]

I don't know if Mold & Gun Shop is still in business or not. The number listed on the brochure I have, 614-286-2743 gets a very irate oriental woman who is not afraid to get nasty as she is telling you "this no gun shop, you don't call here again". I am going to write to the address I have, 6493 State Route 139, Jackson, Ohio, 45640-8788 and see if they are still in business, unless someone here knows. Mold & Gun's stocks were supplied from RED BRUSH STOCKS, also listed in Jackson OH and they are nice stocks, but the phone number I have for them also does not work (at least you don't get the irate oriental woman).

[jnyork]

Hey, I got a question, when you are shooting this type of rifle, is it best to keep the gun up to your shoulder after firing so you can get that fast second shot ?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Rusty]

A ;ot of your satisfaction will come from how well the gun fits you. I tried all manner of military smoothbores and none of them would allow my fat little chipmunk cheeks to get down tight enough to get a good sight picture. The Northstar trade guns were the only ones I could shoot worth a hoot.

[gamekeeper]

Hey, I got a question, when you are shooting this type of rifle, is it best to keep the gun up to your shoulder after firing so you can get that fast second shot ?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Lastmohecken]

The 20ga is a lot of fun. I have a Jackie Brown Lancaster Fowler, I used for squirrel hunting a few times last fall. I like it a lot, but mine was pretty rough when I got it, and I told him about it, and he is in the process of making me another, at which time, I will send the one I have back to him. I hope to see my new, (correct one) soon.

TVM makes some nice guns, and Caywood does to. I am not too impressed with the readymades when it comes to locks. Top quality lock, equals a good gun, for the most part, a poor quality lock, makes for a sorry problem gun, from the get go.

[rjohns94]

I had a .62 (20 bore) English Fowler made by Brad Emig of Cabin Creek Muzzle loaders. LOVED it but decided to go with a rifled barrel. I would like to correct that mistake one day. good luck with your choice.

[Dingelfutz]

Getting a flintlock "off the peg" can be a hit-or-miss proposition. Flintlock locks can be very cranky when they are not assembled/tuned just right. Add this to just about any "flinch lock's" inherent reliability issues and one ends up with a gun that can be very much of a challenge for anyone but especially for a beginner. Don't get me wrong, f.l.s are great. It is just that, very often, shooters need to "come to a common understanding" with them.

If I were just starting out with muzzleloading smoothbore shooting I would strongly consider a percussion gun, double-barreled, preferred. Many current production db's have a cylinder-bored barrel that might be the best bet to begin ball-shooting experiments with. With a bit or lock tuning and "fiddling" with stock dimensions a percussion d.b. can be an excellent shooting companion.

In case there are concerns about "authenticity" a fair number of percussion dbs went West with the Mountain Men. The Hudson's Bay Company sold a lot of them, too, mostly in "trade gun" gauges. Such guns were often recommended to explorers of the Canadian wilderness

[Nath]

I have a Parker Hale P61 Enfield two band .58 smoothy on the way

I have been missin' that click boom thing for a while. Four months is long enough!

Nath.

[fatoldfool]

Properly tuned flintlocks don't have much delay. Probably right about off the shelf locks. This one is fast, and very easy on flints.

[Nath]

A well set up flint can be as fast as a cap lock.
A cap lock has to fall all the way before anything happens, a good flint starts sparking before the hammer reaches the bottom. Not to much prime in the pan flashes instead of burning, through an open flash hole it soon reaches the main charge.

Nath.

[Rusty]

If you get one from North Star West the lock they used to use was designed by Curly Gostomski when he owned the company as North Star. It is basically a trade gun lock but he fine tuned the angles and the inner workings a bit to make it a better lock. He was a member of our ML club here in Fla. and owned a winter place about 5 miles from me here.

[Dingelfutz]

A well set up flint can be as fast as a cap lock.
A cap lock has to fall all the way before anything happens, a good flint starts sparking before the hammer reaches the bottom. Not to much prime in the pan flashes instead of burning, through an open flash hole it soon reaches the main charge.

Nath.

This can be true, theoretically. In practice this advantage occurs only if (a) the shooter is very lucky with his selection of a "factory" lock/gun or (b) the lock in question has been the recipient of A LOT of expert TLC from a top-flight lock tuner. Even so, it takes a heck of a good flintlock (or, a heck of a bad percussion lock) for a flint lock to show any significant lock time advantage over a percussion lock.

While I would be the last to cast any aspersions on "flinters" I remain convinced that a percussion gun is the best way to start out. By and large, percussion guns DO have faster lock times than flint locks, they are MUCH less likely to misfire, they tend to be less weather-sensitive (though not nearly as weather-resistant as a cartridge gun), and there is no flinch-producing "Hiroshima by the right eye" with a percussion gun. However. de gustibus...!

Suggestions:

1. Read. There is a lot of good information in print about m/l shotguns. Find it and read it. You will be glad you did. Two excellent works are V.M. Starr's little book "The Muzzle Loading Shotgun, It's [sic] Care and Use" (available on line) and Greener's The Gun.

2. Be prepared to "upgrade" your gun. While modern m/l shotguns are almost always safe enough they are usually not nearly as refined as all but the most utilitarian "originals". The most common upgrades include:

a. Lock work. Factory locks tend to be "rough" and, too often, can have "soft" lock parts or springs. Consider a lock
tuning to be a part of the price of the gun. Resulting trigger pulls should have the front trigger's pull being about half
the weight of the gun and the rear trigger's pull being about 1/2- to 3/4- pound heavier. Do not scrimp on this m/l
shotguns are no less "particular" than b/l shotguns are about their triggers. Triggers are the "heart" of a shotgun.

b. Nipples. Factory nipples tend to be cheap "junk". Remove them and throw them away. Replace the factory nipples with
good "after market" nipples like Ampco or "Spit-Fire" (spelling?) nipples. Such replacement nipples tend to be much
more durable than "factory" nipples and they also provide much more reliable ignition.

c. Ram rod. Factory ramrods are also ripe candidates for removal and replacement. The "punky" wood that these rods are
made of has a nasty habity of breaking at the worst possible time. Far better to replace this abomination with a rod
made of a good, tough wood like straight-grained hickory. Rod "furniture" from sellers like Dixie Gun Works or Track of
the Wolf is an improvement over what comes from the factory, too.

d. Stock fit. Unless the shooter is lucky, the gun will not fit perfectly. Do what is necessary to make the gun fit.

e. Barrels. Proper POI is essential. Elevation can be adjusted by adjusting the stock. Windage can be adjusted the same
way if both barrels "shoot together". A small amount of variation in the barrels' POI can be lived with. Too much
variation should result in the gun being sent back.

[Blaine]

My caplock T/C Renegade (.54) when properly loaded (not hard at all) would fire, IME, almost as quick as a cartridge rifle. 120gr of Pyrodex P would move it along at what T/C called 2000fps for a round ball. It was a major league deer hammer.

[Nath]

Nice video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A18oFF45vzU

Nath.

[C. Cash]

Nice video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A18oFF45vzU

Nath.

I could listen to that fiddle and watch those flintlocks all day. Here is Vol. 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLEv2-Um ... re=related

[Ben_Rumson]

I tuned a Pedersoli Parker Dueling Pistol lock to the point where it would fire when the pistol was held upside down.. Got the thing cheap at a gun show.. the frizzen was soft ..Case Knit did the trick..I had to groove the pan to get it in line with the flash hole...It shot round ball with precision and 180gr 45cal SWC pretty good too.. Wish I still had it..Only pistol that really fit my hand perfect I discovered later...

[Dingelfutz]

One hates to think in these terms but a m/l smoothbore just might be the best "bug out"/long-term survival gun of them all. The old-time Indians may have had it right, all along.

Gauge: 10 and 12 gauges tend to be more versatile and effective than smaller gauges. Smaller gauges, i.e. 20 to 28 gauge guns tend to be a bit less effective at long ranges and on larger targets. However, smaller gauges tend to "eat" less lead and powder. "Bigger gauges" can be downloaded with smaller shot and powder charges but there is not much that can be done to reduce ball loads beyond a certain point. For most "survival work", however, a 20 gauge most likely is adequate for both small game and large game if shots are taken carefully.

Style: A flintlock smoothbore is more "authentic" for most of the frontier experience. It also offers the possible advantage of being appropriate for the use of "found" flints. However, on this side of the Atlantic, appropriate chert is not always easy to find. Too, most people do not have either the knowledge or the skill to knap a proper flint. Unless one wishes to part with a lot of money on a "bespoke" d.b. the flintlock shooter is more or less restricted to one shot. A percussion gun has the advantages cited in a previous posting. D.b. percussion guns are widely available and are relatively inexpensive. However, percussion guns are dependent of the availability of percussion caps, which tend to be difficult to improvise.

Recommendation (FWIW): Purchase a d.b. percussion 20 gauge. For the gun's "survival kit" add at least 1000 caps (5000 is better) and a sealable ammo can and dessicant to keep the caps in good shape; in/on some kind of a "possibles bag" stow an appropriate powder/shot measure; a powder flask/horn; a capping tool; enough powder, balls, shot, wadding and ball patches to last a few weeks; punches and screwdrivers to fit the gun; a nipple wrench and nipple pick; a half-dozen, or so, quality nipples; a ball mould to cast a ball that will fit the gun's "tight" barrel; a screw-together cleaning rod with appropriate jags, ball screw, worms, etc.; at least one set of extra ram rod fittings; a small "wad" of cleaning patches; and a small bottle of solvent/oil.

Rationale: The 20 gauge percussion gun is recommended for the reasons that have been cited previously. A d.b. is recommended both for its versatility and because, push come to shove, it is "two guns in one"; a handy thing if a lock "goes haywire". The tools are what is appropriate for any m.l. gun. The components listed should last a person through a short-term crisis. Beyond that, lead, patching, and wadding can be scrounged and cleaners and lubricants can be scrounged or made. Even serviceable powder can be produced, if need be. 1000 caps, if they are properly cared for and used sparingly, can be made to last a long time. 5000 caps might last a couple of generations.

[C. Cash]

And one hunting squills/wabbits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1qhEXun ... re=related

I think the old saying, "A man with a shotgun, eats." is a true one.

[Nath]

Thanks Mr cash, I will view them later when I'm done with chores

N.

[Blaine]

Thanks Mr cash, I will view them later when I'm done with chores

N.

Just make the wife do them...you have important stuff to do..... Women really do respect the firm approach...I know....been divorced twice....

[C. Cash]

Thanks Mr cash, I will view them later when I'm done with chores

N.

Just make the wife do them...you have important stuff to do..... Women really do respect the firm approach...I know....been divorced twice....

You bet Nath.

Flounderjig, wouldn't happen to be a lefty would you?
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/ind ... pic=8230.0

[Nath]

Thanks Mr cash, I will view them later when I'm done with chores

N.

Just make the wife do them...you have important stuff to do..... Women really do respect the firm approach...I know....been divorced twice....

You ain't seen the whip marks!

N.