#6 shot or slugs for home defense?

[Doc Hudson]

I/ME/PERSONALLY, had an AD with a 12ga birdshot load of #6's inside my home in 1967, after I returned home from a local hunting trip.

No "theory", no "tests", no "if's" -

Just an errant shotload that sailed over the head of my nearby infant son , and through TWO interior walls/partitions ( this, in a ca.1900 house that had walls constructed of full-sized 2x4's, with wood lathe and horsehair plaster on both sides of both partitions).

Pete, I don't doubt your word one bit, but help me understand what you are saying.

Do you mean to tell us that aa load of #6 shot penetrated both sides of a wall, crossed a room and then penetrated both sides of another wall before crossing another room and embedding itself in an exterior wall?

Or are you saying it penetrated both sides of an interior wall crossed the room and embedded itself in an exterior wall?

Which was it?

I'd also like to know how close to the wall was the muzzle when you had your ND? Was the muzzle against the wall or near the wall at the moment of discharge? Or were you across the room from the penetrated wall?

There is a lot of difference between penetrating a plaster wall at near contact distance and penetrating deep enough to incapacitate a bad guy at 5 to 10 yards away.

I'm glad that you ND resulted in nothing that couldn't be fixed with clean underwear, a vacuum cleaner and some drywall patching. But in spite of your experience, I stand by my statement, If it won't penetrate a wall, it won't penetrte bad guy well enough to incapacitate him. Nothing you have written disputes that statement.

PS, I'm not trying to be disagreeable by referring to the incident as a Negligent Discharge. I just happen to agree with John Taffin who often states that unless it is caused by a failure of the firearm there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only negligent discharges. FWIW I'm as guilty as anyone else, I've had a couple of ND's over the years.

[vancelw]

Neither! I don't care what anyone sez, a SG is not a good home defense weapon.

Just because we're drinking the Kool-Aid, doesn't mean we follow the preacher blindly....

The topic was about shotgun loads. They may not be optimal, but they will get the job done with the right load and tactics.

Noise is the absolute least of my worries if I am ever in a home defense situation. I'll put cotton in my bleeding ears after the JP leaves. Until they zip up the shiny black bag, I'll stand ready at a distance and watch to see if the intruder's chest is rising while I reload. I'm not checking for a pulse until the cavalry arrives.

As far as weapon, I'll grab whatever I think I need for that particular situation, and I have plenty of choices.

[MrMurphy]

I've spent several years clearing buildings with a team and rifles in armor in expectation of close quarters contact. Prefaced by "IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING" and "IN A TEAM" it can be done, more or less safely. One guy, regardless of weapon type is screwed. Too many angles to cover. I've HAD to do it alone (once) and I sweated off 5 lbs and nearly crapped myself.

As to cooking off rounds indoors, auditory exclusion means you generally don't "hear it" when it's happening. I work with two recent infantry vets, and they've shot up/down/through/around houses, huts, courtyards, caves and everything else all over two war zones. They both hear fine (one better than the other, because The Other got himself blown up in Humvees 14 times).

I've burned off a 150 round burst of 7.62mm during an exercise in a concrete bunker with the muzzle out the window/firing slit, and the overpressure and brass flying was more concerning me than the noise.

Having seen, in my previous career to that as a news photographer quite a few people shot...

if i still used a shotgun for home defense (I don't, i use a pistol and an M4 carbine, because i've got over a decade of training with both, and not much with a shotgun), it'd be loaded 00 Buck, reduced recoil. Birdshot can and has killed people, but it has also failed (including at contact distance......seen more than one not-quite-suicide with a 12ga to the head). Those guys wished they didn't survive, as generally most of the face is gone.

Buck's your best all-around bet, with good shot placement. The only Dead Right There where the guy didn't even twitch i ever saw was a close range assasination, double 12ga sawed off to the back with slugs. The first round basically eviscerated the guy and shattered his spine. The second round was pure reflex and he was already on the way to the ground. I've seen people pretty well disintegrated, but from a firearm firing non explosive projectiles, that was the worst. Even .50 BMG doesn't always do that much.

I've seen a couple pistol rounds DRT people but they at least twitched a little or took a step after being hit in the heart/lungs (regardless of caliber, seen it with 9mm, .45, .380 and even .25) but shotguns with the appropriate load tend to be very definitive on the subject.

Bird and buckshot will both sail right through most modern building materials. I've seen birdshot pretty much remove most of a guy's head and still penetrate the ceiling drywall.

[220swift]

For those of us still waiting on frackin' paperwork, a long gun is the only (legal) option. That being said, dam, I guess that I'm being kinda nice!!! 12 ga the first two are S&B rubber buckshot, the last three are double aught (thinking I might want to switch to #4 buck tho, it took me long enough to finally get good neighbors....)

Dan

[Poohgyrr]

The title is calculated to wind folks up... ..

That's what I thought you were doing when I read this title...

I keep the 870 loaded with slugs, but only plan to reach for it if I need that kind of artillery. The new home is built halfway into the hillside, making for a good backstop. Normally handguns, short Levers (full of pistol rounds), or a .30 Carbine (mags full of softpoints) will be grabbed when the dogs wake us.

LOL, the older ankle biter, about fifteen years old now, has learned one lesson very well. She gets a treat for barking when anyone approaches the home or enters inside. She takes that responsibility seriously, and really is a sweetheart.

[Doc Hudson]

LOL, the older ankle biter, about fifteen years old now, has learned one lesson very well. She gets a treat for barking when anyone approaches the home or enters inside. She takes that responsibility seriously, and really is a sweetheart.

Who needs a doorbell when ther is a good dog in the house?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Most likely the situation will be at night. With handguns you get one aimed shot then you are muzzle flash blinded. I prefer 3" #4 buck in a folding stock 12ga. with a good flashlight attached. The round is a stopper. The folding stock shotgun handles well from the hip it those tight places and the tac light serves as your sights. The black and red hole goes where the white light points.

This 870 marine has a pistol grip and top folder on it now. It's the primer.


This semi-auto Saiga 12 is a work in progress.

[Bigahh]

Most likely the situation will be at night. With handguns you get one aimed shot then you are muzzle flash blinded. I prefer 3" #4 buck in a folding stock 12ga. with a good flashlight attached. The round is a stopper.

Steve hit the nail on the head. In daylight I would opt for the quick handgun, and my aiming ability, but trouble will most likely be at night, and you do not need to aim well with a SG. I will take the short barreled shotgun with my attached lights. If I am forced to shoot, it WILL be over with 1 shot unless there happens to be more than 1 intruder. I don't want any bullets coming back at me. The SG is a stopper!

[RIHMFIRE]

[quote="Pete44ru"]FWIW, IMHO it's not HD, unless the home is trying to be entered.

In my experience, shooting a someone who's not actively firing on you/your home, will usually result in a prosecution and/or jail time for aggrivated assault (at the least).

I dont think that is the case in Florida...if he has any kind of weapon...
he is toast...

anyway in Florida we have a lot of homes that have split plans...
meaning the master bedroom is on one side of the house and the kids
or guest rooms on the other side....so the first thing I had to do
is figure out exactly where everything is....beds etc....etc
My house is made out of block so I dont have to worry about the
rounds leaving the property
So depending where this intruder is....I would probably prefer my 45...
but if the shotgun is handy, 00 would be my choice...

[Modoc ED]

How many of you guys that don't think #4 lead shot is good enough to stop you would let me shoot you with a 2 3/4" round? You can wear the heaviest clothing you want -- big, thick, melton wool, Navy peacoat; big thick, thinsulate filled, hunting coat; big, thick, Pendelton, wool coat with double shoulder overlay -- whatever. Or you can wear you speedos. If you survive, I'll give you a thousand dollars for being such a good sport. If you die, I'll give you and yours squat for being such a dummy.

Sometimes ya just gotta shake yer head when reading this forum -- a shotgun is too long for effective use in home defense as said buy one of what I thought was one of our better informed posters -- not likely!!!

Now, I do think 00 Buck can be a better choice that #4 lead shot and I keep some next to my house shotgun.

But for someone to say a shotgun is not effective or a good choice for home defense -- well, I just gotta shake my head.

[Doc Hudson]

How many of you guys that don't think #4 lead shot is good enough to stop you would let me shoot you with a 2 3/4" round? You can wear the heaviest clothing you want -- big, thick, melton wool, Navy peacoat; big thick, thinsulate filled, hunting coat; big, thick, Pendelton, wool coat with double shoulder overlay -- whatever. Or you can wear you speedos. If you survive, I'll give you a thousand dollars for being such a good sport. If you die, I'll give you and yours squat for being such a dummy.

Sometimes ya just gotta shake yer head when reading this forum -- a shotgun is too long for effective use in home defense as said buy one of what I thought was one of our better informed posters -- not likely!!!

Now, I do think 00 Buck can be a better choice that #4 lead shot and I keep some next to my house shotgun.

But for someone to say a shotgun is not effective or a good choice for home defense -- well, I just gotta shake my head.

I got a counter offer for you Ed.

We can use your house or mine, makes no difference.

Load your shotgun with whatever you want to use then come looking for me. I'll be there in the dark with a long sharp knife.

The survivor can claim self-defense.

If you don't want to risk having your carpet stained with your guts, try my experiment. Cut a dowel or broomstick the same length as your shotgun. Get a friend to hide in the house and attempt to disarm you. Carry the stick the same way you would carry your shotgun. I'll bet you loose your stick and get stabbed with a magic marker.

yeah Ed, shotguns have a place in home defense, but that place ain't moving around in the dark looking for gremlins. The place shotguns really shine is in static defense. When you gather your family and barricade the door while awaiting the cavalry to charge in is the time and place for using a shotgun. Or in the hands of you wife or oldest kid to protect the rest of the family while you go through the house hunting bad guys with a pistol and flashlight.

[mescalero1]

I see the shotgun will spread and make for up for my lousy aim crowd poping up.
At the ranges under consideration here, the shot will be acting as a single mass.
You must still aim the shotgun.

[madman4570]

Ed,
Take that offer!

Choose your house/take your very short shotgun w/15pellet 00 Buck and equipped tatical light.
Of course you will have your Buck General knife strapped to your side! Or Leave the knife if you want.
Can I play??????

[Doc Hudson]

I see the shotgun will spread and make for up for my lousy aim crowd poping up.
At the ranges under consideration here, the shot will be acting as a single mass.
You must still aim the shotgun.

Yeah, I noticed that too, and I'd figured that in this crowd it would not be necessary to explain how little shot spreads at home defense ranges.

You do it Mescalero. I'm sick and tired of being insulted. of course you, me and Griff all got smeared in that last round of insult.

[Doc Hudson]

Ed,
Take that offer!

Choose your house/take your very short shotgun w/12pellet 00 Buck and equipped tatical light.
Of course you will have your Buck General knife strapped to your side! Or Leave the knife if you want.
Can I play??????

Sure, post your addres and I'll be on my way.

It ought to be fun watching you try to hold on to a shotgun with one hand and a knife in the other.

You really ought not to bet your life against a man with nothing to loose.

[madman4570]

Doc,

Hope you do not think I was insulting you.
Just meant "Everything is variable" You cant assume anything.
Example,My house is very big 25 ft rooms. A cut down double 12ga to 18" will spread some at that distance.
If it dont spread thats ok too.The strobe light will aid me greatly.
I am just saying you don't know me and i don't know you.You cannot assume you having a knife you will simply take out anyone with a very short shotgun.
Heck, you might find choosing the wrong guy with his 3D maglite(or without)is enough to take your knife and use it on yourself with your own guts on the floor.

You don't know for sure(as well as I don't know for sure)??????
No disrespect intended at all friend!

[mescalero1]

Doc,
Hang in there pard, we know what we are about,
think I'll drop out too.

[madman4570]

Wow! What's up with that!
Like I said before I am just saying you don't know in any situation a clear choice.
But with that said"anyone coming into my place with a knife" The shotgun will be the least of their worries.
Thai's a fact!

[Nixterdemus]

What, no drum mag for the Saiga?


I think where the shotgun shines is muzzle energy. I'll bet my life on 000 to BB easily. Slugs are swell if you're shooting at someone behind a couple of cars.

I agree that trying to clear a room can be touchy. That's where the Sagia w/20 rnd drum mag comes in handy for sniffing around...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eGP62sdds

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYsQDq9_wvk&NR=1

[madman4570]

I see the shotgun will spread and make for up for my lousy aim crowd poping up.
At the ranges under consideration here, the shot will be acting as a single mass.
You must still aim the shotgun.

Ok,
Just got back from my range out back!

Shotgun spread from 12ga Stevens 311 (18.5 inch barrels)(26.5 inch overall) A Broom handle??????????
Distance 12 feet with 12ga. 3" Supreme 00 buck 15 pellets --------spread fired one barrel------8" Both barrels at once---13"


Distance 18 feet same ammo ------one barrel ---12" Both at once-----15"

Does that sound like a single bullet hole.??????????????????

[pharmseller]

Good point about sneaking around looking for the bad guy, while he sits tight and waits for you.
I don't think it matters what you are carrying, if the BG knows where you are and you don't know where he is, he's got a HUGE advantage.
Flashlights are cool but thay also give away your position.
Get you and yours to cover, dial 911, then blow a hole in the BG big enough to throw a cat through if he comes to you.
At ten feet it ain't gonna matter.
Make sure you keep quiet until you can talk to your attorney. Sure, you did nothing wrong, but it helps to have legal representation.


P

[Hobie]

Good point about sneaking around looking for the bad guy, while he sits tight and waits for you.
I don't think it matters what you are carrying, if the BG knows where you are and you don't know where he is, he's got a HUGE advantage.
Flashlights are cool but thay also give away your position.
Get you and yours to cover, dial 911, then blow a hole in the BG big enough to throw a cat through if he comes to you.
At ten feet it ain't gonna matter.
Make sure you keep quiet until you can talk to your attorney. Sure, you did nothing wrong, but it helps to have legal representation.


P

Persactly

[madman4570]

Good point about sneaking around looking for the bad guy, while he sits tight and waits for you.
I don't think it matters what you are carrying, if the BG knows where you are and you don't know where he is, he's got a HUGE advantage.
Flashlights are cool but thay also give away your position.
Get you and yours to cover, dial 911, then blow a hole in the BG big enough to throw a cat through if he comes to you.
At ten feet it ain't gonna matter.
Make sure you keep quiet until you can talk to your attorney. Sure, you did nothing wrong, but it helps to have legal representation.


P

Point taken!
But a High intense tactical Strobe is a lot different than a flashlight.
Also,he can know where I am,cause unless he is a professional knife thrower,and still then,he is going to meet his maker! "Going to get cha"

[shooter]

I whole-heartedly agree a shotgun is not the best choice for clearing a house, but sometimes you gotta work with what you got. I used to keep a Smith .40 or a Springfield 1911 .45 on the nightstand for HD, and the shotgun under the bed for backup. Now, since I have sold my two semi's, the only handguns I am left with are single actions. I'm going to grab the shotgun every time over a Blackhawk, even though I'm fairly proficient at thumbing back the hammer. I would take a compact double action or semi auto over the shotgun, but since I don't have either anymore I'm going with the shotgun.

On another note, I don't know if I would actively search for the bad guy in my house, I would probably sit tight in a dark corner and let him come to me. I don't have kids either, and I know that would come into play if you had little ones in another room you were concerned about. I would sit in a dark corner with my 18" Remington, and as soon as he showed up in the doorway...BANG!! That's all she wrote.

[madman4570]

On another note, I don't know if I would actively search for the bad guy in my house, I would probably sit tight in a dark corner and let him come to me. I don't have kids either, and I know that would come into play if you had little ones in another room you were concerned about. I would sit in a dark corner with my 18" Remington, and as soon as he showed up in the doorway...BANG!! That's all she wrote.

Spot on!

[Hillbilly]

In my case... I wont go hunting for a bad guy in the house. Unless it is evident that the intruder has cut off some family members who could not retreat to the "safe area". I really do not want to 'clear' a house alone.... just not the most prudent move tactically speaking

"let them come to me" seems to make the most sense... if the shotgun happens into play it's 1 low brass #6 followed by 00 buck. That shotgun of mine would be more likely to dispatch a feral dog or nosey coyote near the house.

In my neck of the woods I would be more likely to come home to a break- in than have a home invasion... in that case "911" and a CCW pistol out in the driveway would be the A choice. At that point I think the smart call would be contain the perpetrator in the house until the SO arrives.

A couple of weeks ago in the next County over... a woman pleaded with a drunk to leave the porch while on the phone with the 911 operator. One load of 16 g birdshot did just fine when the guy busted in the patio door and entered the home.

[madman4570]

Ed,
Take that offer!

Choose your house/take your very short shotgun w/12pellet 00 Buck and equipped tatical light.
Of course you will have your Buck General knife strapped to your side! Or Leave the knife if you want.
Can I play??????

Sure, post your addres and I'll be on my way.

It ought to be fun watching you try to hold on to a shotgun with one hand and a knife in the other.

You really ought not to bet your life against a man with nothing to loose.

PM sent!

[MrMurphy]

Having spent a considerable amount of time in the dark wtih a high intensity surefire light on an M4.....you don't leave it on all the time, you blink and move. Having been on both ends of one with hostile intent, you DO NOT see much after being zapped with one.

I've had to do a rapid entry with an 8 man squad where we did all leave our lights on and the lights bouncing all over strobed the place pretty good, the guys we were taking down didn't have a clue exactly where we all were.

[Hillbilly]

"I've had to do a rapid entry with an 8 man squad where we did all leave our lights on and the lights bouncing all over strobed the place pretty good, the guys we were taking down didn't have a clue exactly where we all were."

If you guys wanna spend the nights at my house... bring your own beer, don't stink up the bathroom much or get stuff on the wife's good towels...come on over.

[Jason_W]

I hate to toot my own horn again, but I can add this to the thread. http://www.diyballistics.com/Buckshot%2 ... pared.html

All I can say about birdshot is that I certainly wouldn't want to get hit with it at an across the room distance.

[Doc Hudson]

PM sent!

If you were talking to me, Pm not received.

[madman4570]

PM sent!

If you were talking to me, Pm not received.

??????? Shows you got it, (Re: #6 shot or slugs for home defense? madman4570) Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:43 pm[/color]
But,

Screw the PM! How about now!
Here:

Tell you what!
Let me know (PM me)when you want to come up here.Let's meet at my local Karate Club.
You can use (2) 8" rubber marking knives. I will use me/myself/I
If you can inflict "any"fatal stab wounds to myself prior to me taking you out,which will be judged by a panel of 3 other blackbelts then I will concur that this could have been fatal to myself.
Understand:: there will be a noted time limit after a stab in which also I will have a very limited time to make simulated death actions against you.(those won't be needed though)
Heck, If you are able to achieve this I might concur paying for your return trip!

Note: However you will be required to sign a legal/binding "release" in case of your injuries"

[alnitak]

If any walls are standing when I get that thing emptied I'm gonna swing it like a Louisville Slugger ...

...Over penetration be darned. I ain't worried about the neighbors, cause it's probably them breaking in.

Now those right there are funny! [In my mind I see vancelw standing there like Arnold in Terminator, amidst the destruction of his house, the view of a destroyed neighborhood seen behind him through the panoramic holes ... ]

[vancelw]

Now those right there are funny! [In my mind I see vancelw standing there like Arnold in Terminator, amidst the destruction of his house, the view of a destroyed neighborhood seen behind him through the panoramic holes ... ]

You might have to turn Arnold over. I'm a little narrower at the shoulders and broader in the middle than he is!

[Rexster]

I wear a PD badge, and my chief expects us to use the same weapons, and follow the same rules, 24/7, on the clock, or not. I am authorized to use 00 buck, 4 buck, and slugs, in personally-owned Remington 870 and Benelli M1 or M2 shotguns. I have a couple of the pump guns, and keep them loaded with 00 buck, with slugs kept in reserve.

My wife wears a forensic investigator badge for a very large M.E.'s office, and sees more death scenes than most homicide detectives. She keeps 00 in her personal 870, too.

[madman4570]

Rexster,

You have my respect and I for one would not want to be a BG and have you seeking myself armed with a knife with your shotgun and 00 Buck.
Thank you for your service(both and your wife)

What do you use in a dark environment when seeking out BG's other than canine??

[rjohns94]

Well this is entertaining

[Rexster]

Thanks for the support!

To be clear, I am content with the choices given me by my chief. My wife carries what she wants; she is not armed in an official capacity.

[Doc Hudson]

PM sent!

If you were talking to me, Pm not received.

??????? Shows you got it, (Re: #6 shot or slugs for home defense? madman4570) Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:43 pm[/color]
But,

Screw the PM! How about now!
Here:

Tell you what!
Let me know (PM me)when you want to come up here.Let's meet at my local Karate Club.
You can use (2) 8" rubber marking knives. I will use me/myself/I
If you can inflict "any"fatal stab wounds to myself prior to me taking you out,which will be judged by a panel of 3 other blackbelts then I will concur that this could have been fatal to myself.
Understand:: there will be a noted time limit after a stab in which also I will have a very limited time to make simulated death actions against you.(those won't be needed though)
Heck, If you are able to achieve this I might concur paying for your return trip!

Note: However you will be required to sign a legal/binding "release" in case of your injuries"

The offer was shotun versus knife in a real defensive scenario. Not an open standup fight of a fat old man against some one trained in karate.

You asked to get into a chance to shoot me with a shotgun. I offered to give you the chance. As you decline to play the game on my rules, I decline to play the game on yours.

If you think I'm stupid enough to walk up in front of you armed with a rubber knife and allow you to practice your karate on me, you must be dumber than you think I am.

As for the Private Message, I've no idea what you are talking about as showing I received anything from you but you are wrong. The only PM I've gotten since 2 Jan were three messages I got from Mescalero today. You can believe that or not as you see fit. Personally i don't give a d-amn.

[madman4570]

Doc,

Come on now(you have to lighten up guy) who in their right mind wants to kill someone to prove a point
If you are "really serious" about going to the ultimate over a conversation like this,and making a statement like you did and really would show up over somthing as low keyed as this,(and saying don't screw someone who has nothing to lose in the same context/paragraph.Friend-----------Get some help.(at least after getting your butt kicked trying to stab me with some practice knives.(which yes, you would)you would be breathing.

Doc, no I do not want to have you shot(me possibly stabbed)"I doubt it" to prove this silly stuff.
Have a beer and love life/and lock up your knives friend)
If you were here right now, I would hug you till you grunt,without your knives of course!

[Blaine]

Friends shouldn't banter like that...the only rule to a fight is to win. The only unfair fight is one you lose.

[pharmseller]

PM sent!

If you were talking to me, Pm not received.

??????? Shows you got it, (Re: #6 shot or slugs for home defense? madman4570) Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:43 pm[/color]
But,

Screw the PM! How about now!
Here:

Tell you what!
Let me know (PM me)when you want to come up here.Let's meet at my local Karate Club.
You can use (2) 8" rubber marking knives. I will use me/myself/I
If you can inflict "any"fatal stab wounds to myself prior to me taking you out,which will be judged by a panel of 3 other blackbelts then I will concur that this could have been fatal to myself.
Understand:: there will be a noted time limit after a stab in which also I will have a very limited time to make simulated death actions against you.(those won't be needed though)
Heck, If you are able to achieve this I might concur paying for your return trip!

Note: However you will be required to sign a legal/binding "release" in case of your injuries"

I call dibs on the right to sell tickets.
I get concessions, too.
Do I need a special license to sell beer at the event?
Who's in? $20 gets you in the door, with a two-drink minimum.

P

[vancelw]

I call dibs on the right to sell tickets.
I get concessions, too.
Do I need a special license to sell beer at the event?
Who's in? $20 gets you in the door, with a two-drink minimum.

P

Can I bring firecrackers?

[pharmseller]

I call dibs on the right to sell tickets.
I get concessions, too.
Do I need a special license to sell beer at the event?
Who's in? $20 gets you in the door, with a two-drink minimum.

P

Can I bring firecrackers?

Only if I get a cut.

P

[Modoc ED]

Didn't run out on you guys. The wife and I went up to Klamath Falls, OR for the day to grocery shop and do other general shopping. Haven't got time to reply tonight so I'll catch you guys tomorrow.

Still say a shotgun is plenty for home defense. Now, to qualify that, I'm talking 20" barrel or less. I've got a 30" barreled goose gun that I wouldn't even try to use inside unless there was absolutely no other weapon to use.

[Blaine]

Didn't run out on you guys. The wife and I went up to Klamath Falls, OR for the day to grocery shop and do other general shopping. Haven't got time to reply tonight so I'll catch you guys tomorrow.

Still say a shotgun is plenty for home defense. Now, to qualify that, I'm talking 20" barrel or less. I've got a 30" goose gun that I wouldn't even try to use inside unless there was absolutely no other weapon to use.

That's ok, Ed.....we know you old guys are used to different things than normal folk.........

[Paul Jenkins]

All,
In my opinion, If I fear enough to need my .45 colt in my nightstand or the '97 pump next to my bed, I won't need a lawyer near as bad as an effective weapon. I only worry about RECOGNITION. As Hobie said, I have a sector of fire that eliminates danger to my wifel The hell with home damage, or blood on the floor. I load slug, buck OO, slug ,buck, buck. I want to penetrate. My key word is recognition, and I know that is my biggest problem. I do have intimate experience with a drunk neighbor mistaking my home for his own at 1:00 AM. Fortunitly
we were awake playing cards, and it was only embarrassing for him. If I am fortunate enough to be aware I am in danger, I am prepared to have the heaviest firepower . I want to be able to kill 3 rooms away. Isn't that why we support the NRA?

[mescalero1]

What you guys do not realize is that Doc REALLY has nothing to lose.
Stop and think about that for a moment.
Lighten up, drop the craziness, we are talking about one of our own.

[Blaine]

want to be able to kill 3 rooms away. Isn't that why we support the NRA?

No.....Ya need to see what your shooting at and know where the slug is going to end up...just like in hunting......When your 12ga slug kills the lady next door, they are not going to care what your self protective motive is....

[Hobie]

Well this is entertaining