Aggravating morning at the range
Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Aggravating morning at the range
I've got my deer guns ready to rock and roll, so I've started tuning on my rifles for the winter coyote hunting season.
My 22-250 that used to shoot sub half inch groups with a couple different loads has gone to pieces for some reason that has me baffled. The same loads that shot so well are now shooting two or three inch groups. The targets plainly show "shadows" on the side of each bullet hole, indicating to me that the bullets are not stabilized. I have cleaned the bore with Barnes CR10 and I don't think there is any fouling causing the problem. The barrel only has about 200 rounds through it and there is no damage to the crown. Action screws are tight and bedding is intact. Barrel is still free floated.
One good load last year was 39.0 gr. of IMR 4350 with the 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. It has shot a .479" group in the past, the last one now was nearly 3 inches.
Another shooter was 35.0 gr. of IMR 3031 with the 55 gr. Speer, it's now way over two inches.
I've removed the scope and made sure bases and rings were tight, but I'm sure that the bullet holes indicate an unstable bullet.
WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON HERE?
Some good news, I finally got components to handload some ammo for the Marlin 218 Bee. Found a dandy load with the Hornady 45 gr. "Bee" bullet with 13.0 gr. of IMR4227. Shot two 100 yard groups with that load that put the first four in 1 1/4" and the fifth opened it up to about 2" I'm blaming that last shot on the barrel heating. Don't know of any Coyote that will allow me to get off that many shots anyhoo.
My 22-250 that used to shoot sub half inch groups with a couple different loads has gone to pieces for some reason that has me baffled. The same loads that shot so well are now shooting two or three inch groups. The targets plainly show "shadows" on the side of each bullet hole, indicating to me that the bullets are not stabilized. I have cleaned the bore with Barnes CR10 and I don't think there is any fouling causing the problem. The barrel only has about 200 rounds through it and there is no damage to the crown. Action screws are tight and bedding is intact. Barrel is still free floated.
One good load last year was 39.0 gr. of IMR 4350 with the 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. It has shot a .479" group in the past, the last one now was nearly 3 inches.
Another shooter was 35.0 gr. of IMR 3031 with the 55 gr. Speer, it's now way over two inches.
I've removed the scope and made sure bases and rings were tight, but I'm sure that the bullet holes indicate an unstable bullet.
WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON HERE?
Some good news, I finally got components to handload some ammo for the Marlin 218 Bee. Found a dandy load with the Hornady 45 gr. "Bee" bullet with 13.0 gr. of IMR4227. Shot two 100 yard groups with that load that put the first four in 1 1/4" and the fifth opened it up to about 2" I'm blaming that last shot on the barrel heating. Don't know of any Coyote that will allow me to get off that many shots anyhoo.
NRA Life Member
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 5670
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:13 pm
- Location: DeeDee Snavely's Used Guns and Weapons
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Can temperature changes cause something like that? I've always heard it can cause pressure issues, I wonder if the reverse might be true as well?
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
I don't think it would have this dramatic of an effect. They are chronoing the same as my notes from last year indicate anyway.
NRA Life Member
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32245
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
It wouldn't explain the inaccuracy, but I have had it where a target not on a firm backing, or buckled up from the backing, caused holes not to be crisp looking...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 5670
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:13 pm
- Location: DeeDee Snavely's Used Guns and Weapons
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Ah, not having a chrono myself I didn't think about the velocity.TedH wrote:They are chronoing the same as my notes from last year indicate anyway.
Sounds like you'd better just box that thing up and send it this way...
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 4427
- Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:33 pm
- Location: Wyoming and Arizona
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Ted, is this bad grouping from the same batch of reloads that previously shot well, or have they been reloaded since then?
Also, bullet holes to the contrary, did you swap scopes to check to see if that is the problem?
Also, bullet holes to the contrary, did you swap scopes to check to see if that is the problem?
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
They have been reloaded since, but with the same brass, same lot of primers, same cans of powder and same boxes of bullets.
I have not swapped the scope yet because close examination of the targets has me convinced the bullets are not stabilizing. The worse the group size, the more apparent the dark marks on one side of the holes. In the better groups the shadows on the sides are not as apparent, but still there.
I may try another scope next time out just to rule it out.
I have not swapped the scope yet because close examination of the targets has me convinced the bullets are not stabilizing. The worse the group size, the more apparent the dark marks on one side of the holes. In the better groups the shadows on the sides are not as apparent, but still there.
I may try another scope next time out just to rule it out.
NRA Life Member
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 4427
- Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:33 pm
- Location: Wyoming and Arizona
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
OK, Ted, now did you check your case lengths last time you loaded? If you have some but not all cases that are too long, it can cause some pretty drastic pressure differences, thus poor accuracy.
I know the CR-10 is supposed to be good stuff. However, if it were me, I would get some Sweets 7.62 and a nylon bore brush. Apply the Sweets very liberally with the nylon bore brush, let it sit about 15-20 minutes and see what comes out. Might surprise you.
I know the CR-10 is supposed to be good stuff. However, if it were me, I would get some Sweets 7.62 and a nylon bore brush. Apply the Sweets very liberally with the nylon bore brush, let it sit about 15-20 minutes and see what comes out. Might surprise you.
- Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
- Posts: 27910
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Good luck Ted. Nothing to add that will help, but I do hope you get it sorted out!
- Paladin
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1885
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:55 am
- Location: Not Working (much)
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
After the Sweets try some JB Bore cleaner (A polishing compound) it will remove fowling buildup.jnyork wrote:OK, Ted, now did you check your case lengths last time you loaded? If you have some but not all cases that are too long, it can cause some pretty drastic pressure differences, thus poor accuracy.
I know the CR-10 is supposed to be good stuff. However, if it were me, I would get some Sweets 7.62 and a nylon bore brush. Apply the Sweets very liberally with the nylon bore brush, let it sit about 15-20 minutes and see what comes out. Might surprise you.
It is not the critic who counts
-
- Levergunner 2.0
- Posts: 474
- Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:10 pm
- Location: North Central Washington, USA
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Hey there TedH - I would suspect you've got a good case of copper fouling. I have a .257 Ackley Improved that whistles an 87 grain bullet out there right now!! After three shots the accuracy goes from 1/2 Minute of Angle at 300 yards to 4 to 6 inches. I have been using a product available from MidwayUSA called Wipeout. It comes as a foaming bore cleaner and a liquid you can use on patches/rod between shots. I do all my rifles that shoot jacketed bullets frequently, and have seen an improvement in accuracy with all of them. Just a note: I support the rifle upside down when cleaning to help keep debris out of the workings, be it lever or bolt gun. Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind
- kimwcook
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 7978
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:01 pm
- Location: Soap Lake, WA., U.S.A.
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Ted, it seems to me if you haven't changed any components, the gun/optics/mounts are in good shape and you've had a good baseline groups, there's something up with your barrel.
Old Law Dawg
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
I hope I am wrong but that sounds like the barrel has gone
Apart from that negativeness some barrels need some fouling!!!
Nath.
Apart from that negativeness some barrels need some fouling!!!
Nath.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
22-250 can eat up a barrel quick but I don't think your round count is high enough to warrant that issue. I think the others are right that you have copper build up. Try the Sweets 7.62 as suggested before and see what that does.
How is your throat erosion?
How is your throat erosion?
Jeremy
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
jnyork wrote:OK, Ted, now did you check your case lengths last time you loaded? If you have some but not all cases that are too long, it can cause some pretty drastic pressure differences, thus poor accuracy.
I trim the cases to minimum spec before each loading.
I guess I'll do some more agressive cleaning and see what, if anything comes out. I've got some JB paste to give it a good scrubbing as well. A buddy of mine has an Outers Foul Out, might see if he'll charge this one up for me too.
NRA Life Member
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
I agree with the Levergunners who advise aggressive bore cleaning. Copper fouling can certainly cause the problem you are encountering. If it persists, the first thing I recommend is having the crown re-cut. Just beacuse it looks OK, doesn't mean its square. It need only be off by a thousandth to flay bullets all over. Hope you find the issue soon. My second piece was to check your scope and rings, but I see you have done that....
Bill Nowicki
Headed "upta camp"
Headed "upta camp"
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Well I've been cleaning on the 22-250 all day. Alternating between CR-10 and JB Bore Paste. I am finally to the point where a CR-10 soaked patch comes out clean after several strokes. I need to put together some of my old standby load of the Ballistic Tip and IMR-4350. If they are still hitting sideways I guess it's time for a new barrel.
Pretty bad when a lever action 218 will outshoot a heavy barrel bolt gun! I am tickled with that little Bee though. That's going to be a fun one.
Pretty bad when a lever action 218 will outshoot a heavy barrel bolt gun! I am tickled with that little Bee though. That's going to be a fun one.
NRA Life Member
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
If your stand by load still won't shoot check your throat and your muzzle. If your throat is worn you may get away with turning the some off the chamber end and run a reamer in it to clean it up.TedH wrote:Well I've been cleaning on the 22-250 all day. Alternating between CR-10 and JB Bore Paste. I am finally to the point where a CR-10 soaked patch comes out clean after several strokes. I need to put together some of my old standby load of the Ballistic Tip and IMR-4350. If they are still hitting sideways I guess it's time for a new barrel.
Pretty bad when a lever action 218 will outshoot a heavy barrel bolt gun! I am tickled with that little Bee though. That's going to be a fun one.
Jeremy
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
GySgt USMC Ret
To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Ted
Before you wear out your Bbl. check your crimp as just a little too much due to slight case length or gremlins is enough to upset your bullet, Also compare lot numbers of your bullet, cuz they have been known to change .
Minto
Before you wear out your Bbl. check your crimp as just a little too much due to slight case length or gremlins is enough to upset your bullet, Also compare lot numbers of your bullet, cuz they have been known to change .
Minto
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
I don't crimp the 22-250 at all. Bullets are all from the same box.minto wrote:Ted
Before you wear out your Bbl. check your crimp as just a little too much due to slight case length or gremlins is enough to upset your bullet, Also compare lot numbers of your bullet, cuz they have been known to change .
Minto
NRA Life Member
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
TedH,
If the rounds have been loaded for awhile, sometimes the bullet will take a "set" in the case neck. Try setting the bullet a little deeper. If you hear/feel a "snap" while doing so, accuracy will improve since the "set" has been removed.
A number of years ago I had some .22 Hornet reloads that shot well one year but not very well the following year. Put them back through the seating die and seated the bullets a little deeper. I found that each one had taken a "set". THey then grouped as well as they did the year previous.
w30wcf
If the rounds have been loaded for awhile, sometimes the bullet will take a "set" in the case neck. Try setting the bullet a little deeper. If you hear/feel a "snap" while doing so, accuracy will improve since the "set" has been removed.
A number of years ago I had some .22 Hornet reloads that shot well one year but not very well the following year. Put them back through the seating die and seated the bullets a little deeper. I found that each one had taken a "set". THey then grouped as well as they did the year previous.
w30wcf
aka John Kort
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka w44wcf (black powder)
NRA Life member
.22 WCF, .30 WCF, .44 WCF Cartridge Historian
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka w44wcf (black powder)
NRA Life member
.22 WCF, .30 WCF, .44 WCF Cartridge Historian
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 6972
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:52 pm
- Location: Ridgefield WA. USA
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Good point w30wcf . That is one reason I had forgotten. Very true!
Re: Aggravating morning at the range
Thanks for the good tip John, but these rounds had only been loaded for a few days.
NRA Life Member