OT - Give me guidance on AR-15 Uppers...

[Ysabel Kid]

I apologize if this is a duplicate post. I lost my internet connection last night in the middle of this one. I looked, and it doesn't appear to have made it before.

Anyway, an "OT" post because it is not about a levergun, though it is about a firearm. I am thinking about picking up an A3 upper for my AR15, currently in a CAR type set up. I would like to get a flat top with a heavy barrel - something for target shooting and perhaps a bit of varmit shooting. Now that the frenzy has died down a bit it is back on the list. Of course, that could change at a moment's notice with the current idiocy in Washington. Probably not something I am going to rush out to do - need to rebuild the gun fund. Still, something I would like to start looking into a bit. Quite frankly though, I don't have the time to become a member and research this on a dedicated AR15 forum. I know some of us here also own EBR's, so I thought I would seek out your learned opinions, expertise, and experience.

Any recommendations?

Thanks!

[Hobie]

I changed your title so that it was clear just what you're going to do... This will bring in the experts (and we do have a couple).

One thing I'd be certain of was that there was a front sling swivel on there... Don't ask me why this is important...

[O.S.O.K.]

I would suggest del-ton http://www.del-ton.com

I have two AR's that I built using their kits (which is basically an upper with the guts for the lower along with the stock).

They are both excellent AR's and shoot 1", 100 yard groups with little effort on my part - in terms of load development, etc. - with optics.

Their service is excellent.

[alnitak]

First decision is piston or direct impingement upper.

Just curious, what are you using for a lower? Is it already built?

[Hobie]

I would suggest del-ton http://www.del-ton.com

I have two AR's that I built using their kits (which is basically an upper with the guts for the lower along with the stock).

They are both excellent AR's and shoot 1", 100 yard groups with little effort on my part - in terms of load development, etc. - with optics.

Their service is excellent.

I used Del-Ton...

[COSteve]

Deleted

[kimwcook]

I have a RRA LAR-15 that's a flat top. I have the 16" heavy bbl. I've got an Aimpoint M2 w/4MOA red dot mounted on top with A.R.M.S. BUIS. I love it. Puts'em where ever I need'em to go. It goes to work with me.

[okdee]

I will be watching this post and visiting the posted website(s).

I have just purchased my first stripped lower and ordered a full upper rifle kit from Rock River Arms, in .223.

So, I am very green on this platform, but also pretty excited about it.

I still am pretty much a lever action shooter, but it is good to be open and willing to learn.

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[O.S.O.K.]

If you want directions on assembly of the lower components, I suggest going to arfcom (ar-15.com) and get them there - they have good threads for that.

Here's my two del-ton kit "builds" - both on Stag lowers.

[cnjarvis]

Since you're not in a hurry Jay, take your time and do some other research. From what I understand, Chrome-Moly barrels w/o chrome linings are usually more accurate than chrome lined barrels and stainless barrels may out shoot either. For the # of rounds that you or I are likely to shoot, the additional longevity of the chrome lined barrel won't be of much use. A quality barrel will affect your accuracy most. There are several good barrel manufacturers out there but I don't remember all of them. I'd also suggest a free-float forend.

For kit manufacturers, I'd look at J&T Distributing http://www.jtdistributing.com/, Del-ton http://www.del-ton.com/ or even uppers from Bushmaster and RRA.

I've used J&T myself and I'm very pleased with the quality and workmanship on the assembled upper. I believe that they use both ER Shaw and Wilson barrels. Mine's a Wilson. (chromed)

My Bushmaster ORC, also chromed, will shoot sub-moa with 3 select loads when using a Nikon 3-9x40 scope.

HTH

[alnitak]

We could use a bit more information besides that already asked. In no particular order it would help if we had things like;

* All Mil-Spec or whatever
* Desired barrel length (18", 20", 24", etc.)
* Type of barrel (Chrome Moly, Chrome lined, or Stainless Steel)
* Weight of bullets you plan to shoot (so that we can recommend a proper twist rate)
* Ranges you plan to shoot at (i.e. close in 25 to 100yds, mid range 100 to 300 yds, long range 300 to 600+ yds, etc.),
* Will you reload or just buy commercial ammo
* Do you want a free floated barrel
* Do you want handguards or a rail
* What type of sights (i.e. optics or iron), etc.
* What type of lower do you have
* Does it have a single or two stage trigger
* etc.

+1. Nice starting list. Underlying the 2-4th bullets (and the last one) is what is the intended purpose of the rifle -- target, combat, all-around, varmint, etc. For example, two-stage trigger is recommended for target, but not necessarily for a high-volume, "combat" AR (e.g., the RRA Two-stage National Match trigger is known to fail as more rounds, 2k-5k, are put through the rifle, whereas the Geisele SSA is hardy enough).

[Streetstar]

well, if you already have a CAR set-up, then i assume you dont really need a military type upper. JP enterprises does the target stuff better than anyone else. http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.1_CTR02.php

However, if you are not going to be doing any formal BR shooting, Rock river really has your bases covered

Here's a link to their "varmint" kit --- nice upper for the money, they use Wilson barrels

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_id=270

Model 1 has a nice upper that would be suitable for this too, you would have to add a bolt carrier, -- Bravo Company markets some decent ones , or a Young's bolt carrier would be awesome. Some people look down their noses at Model 1, but they use a good barrel and the bolt carrier is up to you

http://model1sales.com/item-detail.cfm? ... N=34218184

DPMS has something for everybody and so does Bushmaster

http://www.dpmsinc.com/

Lastly ------ Here's a lighter weight tactical model from Larue that would still fit the accuracy requirements-- kind of pricey
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactic ... bok?no=100

I didnt name any of the major "boutique" tactical brands (except that LaRue upper -- which is worth the cash, but may not be worth that much cash to you) --- most of the boutique stuff is marketed at people who "play army" too much - and who pore over spec sheets too much.
A rifle that you or i could be happy with for years, may not have acceptable reliability for a reserve police officer who does several "carbine courses" a year --- its usually bolt carrier problems , plus the fact that varmint and target oriented stuff generally have tighter .223 chambers than the 5.56 chambers on a military themed rifle.
Another issue with the GI-Joe looking stuff is rifle twist rate. Standard for the M-16 and M-4 is 1/7 twist with a 5.56 chamber. The fast twist is so the military rifles can stavilize heavy tracers up to 75 gr. or so. Ammo technology is producing some pretty accurate heavy for calibre loads too. This is great if you will be shooting tracers, charging machine gun nests, or possibly using heavy for caliber 223 loads for whitetail hunting or long range silhouette shooting, but may not adequately stabilize 45 and 50 grain varmint bullets.
For general purpose use -- a 1/8 or 1/9 twist may be what you really need. Personally if i want to shoot heavy bullets, i pick a rifle that shoots heavy bullets -- i wont cripple the velocity of a 223 by loading it with 75 grainers. But that is my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. (dedicated varmint bolt rifles typically use a 1/12 twist for shooting bullets that are at most 62 grains)

Have fun with your choice, no matter what you decide -- bang for the buck the Rock Rivers look like a solid deal. But if you can stretch the budget -- JP and Larue will knock a serious hole in a checking account but will be some serious equipment. (i dont have equipment from either -- but it would be nice )

[okdee]

Thanks Ysabel Kid, for starting this post and to those who posted the information .

Has anyone started reloading for the .223? Is there a difference in dies? I have a Dillon 650 that I could convert over, but not sure as to which set of dies. The carbide rifle dies or the standard rifle dies? Does one use a separate crimp die?

Thanks again to Ysabel Kid!

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[COSteve]

Has anyone started reloading for the .223? Is there a difference in dies? I have a Dillon 650 that I could convert over, but not sure as to which set of dies. The carbide rifle dies or the standard rifle dies? Does one use a separate crimp die?

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

I also own a Dillon XL650 with casefeeder and among the 8 calibers I load currently I load 3 different bullet weights in .223 / 5.56 for my ARs. While I like and use Lee Carbide Deluxe 4 die sets for all my pistol loads, I'm very happy with the set of Dillon .223 dies I got. They're a bit more expensive than the Lees but have a better rep in the .223 caliber. They come with a carbide expander ball so I've never had issues not lubing the inside of the cases.

Don't bother with carbide necked rifle dies because you still have to lube them and Dillon states that their carbide rifle die sets are for production reloaders because their std dies will last well over 1,000,000 rds. In addition, you'll want a second toolhead for your case prep before you reload. This is necessary for necked cases.

If this is your first shot at necked rifle cases, you might want to review my personal necked rifle reloading steps. The steps are much more involved than those reloading straight walled cases because you have to cycle the brass twice to reload it correctly; one case prep cycle and then an actual reloading cycle.

There are other ways to do it, but this works well for me in my XL650 with casefeeder. I check my brass twice during the brass prep process (after initial cleaning and then again after cleaning the lube off) and then again after I've completed reloading the rounds just to make sure I've caught any bad brass and/or rounds.

Brass Prep (using your case prep toolhead setup as described below):
1. Inspect Brass
2. Tumble / Clean Brass - Lizard Litter Walnut & Turtle Wax car polish - 1 hr max
3. Lube Brass - Dillon Spray Lube not One-Shot
4. Install Case Prep Toolhead in XL650 - confirm adjustments
• Dillon Decapper / Resizer die in #1 - I resize and decap at this stage
• Dillon Trimmer in #4 - I have the die set to just touch the case but trim at the proper length
5. Drop Brass in Casefeeder and crank handle to Decap / Resize and Trim - if necessary
6. Tumble / Clean Brass - Lizard Litter Walnut - 10 minutes max
7. Inspect brass again and Dillon Case Gauge - Lot samples: 10% of total. If question, then gauge every case.
8. Swage - only if needed
9. Store prep'd brass for reloading in future
* Note that I neither chamfer nor de-burr the case neck nor clean the primer pockets because . . . .
- I don't do Bullseye shooting and so far have never needed to clean my primer pockets and,
- the Dillon Super Swage does a great job at both removing the crimp and swaging a uniform primer pocket and,
- the Dillon trimmer leaves a smooth, bur free edge and,
- I use boat tailed bullets so chamfering is unnecessary for my needs.

Reloading (using your reloading toolhead setup as described below):
1. Install Reloading Toolhead in XL650, fill powder measure, primer feed, and bullet bin - confirm adjustments
• Lee Universal Decapper die in #1 - to remove any media in flash hole
• Dillon Powder die in #2
• Dillon Powder Check die in #3
• Dillon Bullet Seater in #4
• Dillon FCD in #5
2. Drop Brass in Casefeeder and crank handle while adding bullets
3. Inspect finished rounds
4. Box and label
Go to range and make empty brass to start cycle once again

I've made a number of cheap and simple modifications to my 650 both to save money and to give me extra convenience so if you're new to yours drop me an IM or email and I'll send you information on all the Cheap Tips and Tricks I've done to mine.

[awp101]

Some manufacturers will provide a .223 Wylde chamber (IIRC) so you can shoot commercial .223 or mil-spec 5.56.

I don't recall the exact differences between .223 and 5.56 but there's just enough that you MIGHT, POSSIBLY, MAYBE have an issue using .223 in a mil-spec 5.56 chamber or vice-versa. Read that again: MIGHT, POSSIBLY, MAYBE. 99% of shooters don't have a problem. I know .308 Win/7.62x51 (7.62 NATO) have very slight differences but the warnings generally apply to bolt actions, if heeded at all. I shot BH .308 Match and whatver mil-surp I could find (mainly South African, Malayian MG ammo [man that was fun stuff since there was the occasional tracer mixed into the belt! Delinking wasn't so fun though...] and Radway Green) through my Savage with nary an issue.

[Hobie]

Thanks Ysabel Kid, for starting this post and to those who posted the information .

Has anyone started reloading for the .223? Is there a difference in dies? I have a Dillon 650 that I could convert over, but not sure as to which set of dies. The carbide rifle dies or the standard rifle dies? Does one use a separate crimp die?

Thanks again to Ysabel Kid!

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

I use the same dies. Work just fine. Just get the regular dies. You will likely not load enough cartridges to warrant the carbide dies. Carbide dies for rifle (necked/tapered) cases are intended for high wear applications like commercial loading. Other marketing of them is to the benefit of the seller not the buyer. All cases have to be lubed. My cheap Lee dies have loaded 25K rounds most of which went out my SP1 from 1984-1994.

[okdee]

Boy, howdy! Thank you kindly!

I be off n runnin!

Oklahoma Dee

[MrMurphy]

I'm in the business of ARs for a living.

For a basic plinker/hunter these guys have given good advice.

If you get serious and want a major league precision piece, willing to drop a few grand on a rifle capable of subminute groups at any distance inside 500m... let me know.

[okdee]

Thanks MrMurphy!

You nailed me in the plinker/hunter group as of now. The future - who knows?!

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[GoatGuy]

Colt!!

[Streetstar]

Colt!!

That would also be my suggestion if a basic defensive carbine was what the OP was after, but Colt just does not have much to offer for the target shooter/varmint hunter except the HBAR

[Rusty]

This is a great thread guys, thanks!

[DixieBoy]

CO Steve - What kind of scopes are those you've mounted on your rifles ? I like how compact they are.

Add me to the list of gratefuls here, for this thread. I'm learning what I can about the EBR's since this past spring, but still feel like a total rookie. Good to get the straight scoop from those who know, as opposed to those just promoting the latest wannabe Rambo stuff. I've learned alot here just reading this thread. - DixieBoy

[Hobie]

You guys do know that the .223/5.56 with the 75-77 gr. bullets is the same thing as the .22 Savage Hi-Power. That is exactly what I wanted but due to non-availability went with the 1-9 twist which seems to shoot the 55 gr. OK. I plan on using the 63 gr. Winchester PP (IIRC that's right) which is what is used in the CHP load. I already used the 63 gr. Sierra. It worked fine in my old SP1 and in my Contender.

[Ysabel Kid]

Did a little digging and found a wonderful article from our very own Quinn brothers from 2003...

http://www.gunblast.com/AR15_HBARs.htm

These are complete rifles, but along the lines of what I'm thinking of for an upper.

Thanks all to the info. I owe some of your responses - been slow due to the medical stuff this week.

[AJMD429]

I'll have to admit, it seems like learning about AR's from levergunners is a bit more efficient, palatable, and concise, than going to an "AR" website. I'm not sure why, but perhaps there's less strident advocacy of only one brand, only one configuration, or one-upsmanship.

I wonder if the folks who are mostly into the EBR stuff wanted to learn about leverguns, if they'd find that asking fellow-EBR-guys was a better way to learn the basics than to come here and ask us?

Anyway, this has been a useful thread. I think many of us who are primarily levergunners own OTHER guns like bolt actions, pumps, breakopens, falling blocks, and semiautomatics , even though our 'heart' may be in the leverguns, due to their aesthetics, power, tolerance for varying ammunition, or nostalga.

Even though some of us hate to admit it, the EBR's are here to stay, and could be considered the next-century's leverguns, as far as the role they play for hunting, sports, and military. It may seem strange to us now, but in 100 years, those plastic-and-aluminum things will likely have the same 'nostalga' we feel for the walnut-and-octagon stuff.

The AR's and the Garand and AK systems are all three amazing, durable, and each has features I admire. If you could have the durability of the AK, the power of the Garand, and the accuracy and modularity of the AR, you'd have one heck of a gun. Many come close to that ideal.

Here's what I think would make an ideal 'AR' system:

1. a CAR-15 with rugged fixed carry handle and older-style (more rugged) sights. Good starter gun.
2. a .22 LR adapter for the above gun. The kid(s) love them and adults too, plus cheaper to shoot.
3. a full-length stocked AR flattop with 20"-22" bull barrel and high magnification scope. Accurate companion gun.

As for brand, I'll defer to the 'experts' who've compared them. I have a Bushmaster and a DPMS set up as above, and both perform as well or better than I can. I don't have the 'gas piston' conversions, because I don't shoot mine 1/100th as much as any soldier ever would, so don't fret the dirt-in-action stuff, since I can (but don't) clean my guns every 100 rounds if I thought I needed to (haven't been in many 3-day pin-down firefights lately), of for that matter every ten rounds.

[Sixgun]

Kid,
No expert, but I've shot all the brands from Smith & Wesson, les Bear, Bushmaster, Rock River, Lewis Tool & Machine, Colt and others. My buddy Tom sells more blackguns than most gunshops in Pa put together. He sells to civilians, law enforcement, prisions, and export.

While building one is great, its not for you. You will just get confused. Many of the brands are great but one stands out for #1 in reliability-------Colt They work EVERYTIME. They have been building these guns for over 40 years and have it down pat. Everyone else jumped on the bandwagon.

My LE 6940 with 16 inch barrel and 1-7 twist shoots 55 grainers to 69 grainers at MOA, with the 69 grainers doing MOA out to 500 meters. No need to go with 24" heavy barreled tricked out guns for target accuracy.

Most likely, you want a defense gun with occasional plinking and varmiting. The Colt M-4 6920 or 6940 is hard to beat, or in my & Tom's opinion, can't be beat. We shoot tens of thousands of rounds every year out of these Colts from semi auto's, full auto, and 3 round burst guns. They work EVERYTIME

For 1200+, you can buy a 6920 and about $1500 will bring a 6940. I suggest the newest 6940 as it has flip up sights and is scope/aimpoint ready. When the 3rd. Revolution hits us, you will be glad you picked an M-4 style -------Sixgun

[GoatGuy]

Colt!!

.................., but Colt just does not have much to offer for the target shooter/varmint hunter except the HBAR

We'll, there ya' go.

[Ysabel Kid]

Here's what I think would make an ideal 'AR' system:

1. a CAR-15 with rugged fixed carry handle and older-style (more rugged) sights. Good starter gun.
2. a .22 LR adapter for the above gun. The kid(s) love them and adults too, plus cheaper to shoot.
3. a full-length stocked AR flattop with 20"-22" bull barrel and high magnification scope. Accurate companion gun.

Hmmm... that's exactly what I'm in the process of doing. I have # 1 covered. This thread is checking into # 3. Need to accomplish # 2 as well, but O.S.O.K. posted on the .22 LR adapter a while back, so I know where to go for that.

[MrMurphy]

I'm "in the business" and at the manufacturing end not the "gun shop commando" end.

With the last 3 years spent in various parts of the globe carrying one I'm not just all talk, though I didn't see combat.


Nothing wrong with a basic carry handle rifle, but I would get a removable carry handle, or fixed rear (Daniel Defense, LMT or LaRue Tactical) without the handle. Optics for fighting are here to stay. At room distance, and especially in the dark.....nothing is faster. And I shot irons for almost 20 years first.

I've run an Aimpoint M2 for 3 years (constant on, or nearly so) on it's original battery. All while being frozen, hailed on, rained on, snowed on, roasted (135 F) and sandstormed. Seen them get smacked, dinged, whacked, banged etc into people, armor, walls, floors, ceilings, turret rings, even an armored Humvee windshield. And they just keep running. For up close and personal out to 300-400m, not much is faster for snap shooting moving targets.

Out of the basic consumer grade rifles...... S&W has solidly built guns. Bushmasters, properly inspected with a few replacement parts, do fine. RRAs I don't trust (fine for plinking, varmints, etc....i wouldn't use it on duty). Same for DPMS. When run hard.....they tend to break.

Sabre Defense, LMT, LaRue Tactical, LWRC International and a few others (Colt, especially) are "duty grade" without question any of them out of the box will run hard and long. S&Ws, with proper inspection, can do well. They've been tested (not by S&W) and 3 of them ran 45,000 hard rounds without cleaning in carbine courses before any failures started to appear.

The whole piston thing is overblown. The rifle was intended to be a DI design, pistons predate it. Nothing wrong with piston guns in ones intended to be that way. Colt had piston prototypes in Army testing in the 60s, the Army didn't see any improvement. Making a DI gun a piston is sort of like harnessing a horse team to a Ford Escort. Yes you can, but it wasn't intended to run that way. They may keep the chamber cleaner but all that stuff still goes somewhere.

Properly lubed, an AR will run many thousands of rounds nonstop without cleaning. It might be filthy but it runs. As a trainer once said "Carbines, like women, run better wet". A guy I know went through a 10 day long fight in Afghanistan and only cleaned his rifle maybe 2-3 times when time allowed (quick rip through of the crud, not white glove cleaning) and kept it lubed. He went through a basic unit of fire (210 rounds) probably 15 times in that period.

I come here to learn about leverguns since I'm not really a levergun guy, but if you have AR type questions, feel free to contact me. I will give you the No BS answer on what I use, what I recommend, and why, and it's not a one size fits all thing...... I take your situation, budget, etc into account.

[Hobie]

I've got to be honest, if I had to choose the format for a gift to one of the kids, I'd get a lightweight collapsible stock with the old front sight post and removable carry handle installed. One NEEDS a sling with these guns because use often involves having your hands preoccupied and you need to keep your weapon with you. I hunted with my SP-1 carbine but I thought of it as an SD firearm first and foremost.

[Hobie]

How about the 7.62x39 COMBLOC in the AR? Just need an upper, right? Different mags?

[MrMurphy]

The problem is finding magazines that actually work. Most are modified AK mags, with a straight "tower" section added. None quite work well and the mags are ridiculously expensive ($30-50 each). USA Magazines made some inexpensive ones, but I've never seen a USA mag that I would actually trust to work. I haven't seen a "new" made AR magazine in 7.62X39mm in over five years, or a new rifle chambered in the caliber, simply because it doesn't work well in ARs without a AK-specific lower receiver. Knight's Armarment made a few of those that actually took AK mags as prototypes, but they were never mass produced.


The 6.8mm SPC gives better performance and actually WORKS (being that it was designed for the AR specifically) and will use the standard mags, though not as many rounds fit. The ammo isn't exactly cheap, but it performs well on deer and other animals, and as more guns and more ammo manufacturers support the round, it'll get cheaper. 6.8-specific mags will fit a few more rounds but for most purposes that's irrelevant.

The 6.5mm Grendel is a flat shooting, long range AR-specific round as well. There's a few other "swap uppers and go" options like the .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, etc also.

[Hobie]

Isn't somebody coming out with a .30 for the AR-15? (DANG this CRS!)

[MrMurphy]

I believe it's Remington's .30 Remington.

The 6.8 is basically a .277, this is the same idea just a bit bigger.

[JReed]

Go with an A4 upper the rear carry handle can be removed so that you have a flat top rail the up side is if some thing should happen to your scoop just slap the handle back on and you have your iron sights. 16-18 inch barrel with a 1:9 twist will do you fine for what you want.

[COSteve]

Go with an A4 upper the rear carry handle can be removed so that you have a flat top rail the up side is if some thing should happen to your scoop just slap the handle back on and you have your iron sights. 16-18 inch barrel with a 1:9 twist will do you fine for what you want.

Much better approach is to have a BUIS (back up iron sight) already mounted and sighted in on your rifle so that all you have to do is remove the scope and you're ready to go. Both my ARs have the stock front sight and a fold down rear BUIS.

[Hobie]

Go with an A4 upper the rear carry handle can be removed so that you have a flat top rail the up side is if some thing should happen to your scoop just slap the handle back on and you have your iron sights. 16-18 inch barrel with a 1:9 twist will do you fine for what you want.

Much better approach is to have a BUIS (back up iron sight) already mounted and sighted in on your rifle so that all you have to do is remove the scope and you're ready to go. Both my ARs have the stock front sight and a fold down rear BUIS.

That was what I did. However, for a basic carbine where the scope would be an add on, I'd get Jeremy's set-up with the light-weight barrel and add the scope later. That carbine loaded with the CHP load would likely handle any gang-banger looters out there. Add the scope later (easier to get scope sights) when you have the money and you've got a "sporter" that will do great work on coyotes, etc.

[shawn_c992001]

I'm going to be the odd ball here and recommend the DPMS uppers. Relatively cheap, and work very well. I have a AP4 upper in 6.8SPC and a LR-308 AP4 that shoots great!!!

[JReed]

Go with an A4 upper the rear carry handle can be removed so that you have a flat top rail the up side is if some thing should happen to your scoop just slap the handle back on and you have your iron sights. 16-18 inch barrel with a 1:9 twist will do you fine for what you want.

Much better approach is to have a BUIS (back up iron sight) already mounted and sighted in on your rifle so that all you have to do is remove the scope and you're ready to go. Both my ARs have the stock front sight and a fold down rear BUIS.

That was what I did. However, for a basic carbine where the scope would be an add on, I'd get Jeremy's set-up with the light-weight barrel and add the scope later. That carbine loaded with the CHP load would likely handle any gang-banger looters out there. Add the scope later (easier to get scope sights) when you have the money and you've got a "sporter" that will do great work on coyotes, etc.

The only problem I have seen for the fold down sights is you don't have the same amount of elevation adjustment as you do with the carry handle sights. Of course not every one uses their sights to shoot out to 500yards or more so for most it isn't that big a deal. For me after 13 years of getting payed to shoot the M16A2 I like all the adjustment I can get.

[MrMurphy]

Knight's Armarment Corporation makes a fold down 600m rear sight, as does Matech. The KAC is a better sight overall, but the Matech does the job.

Considering the shorter sight radius, most people can't shoot irons with a carbine to their maximum effective range plus a hundred meters. Most are lucky to hit at 300m.

[Streetstar]

I'm with JReed on iron sight placement. I have carried the M-16 (A2 and CAR formats) in my military career and have grown accustomed to the standard A2 sight picture. The flip up sights just seem too low due to the board straight stock line. For simplicity - i like the A1 sights even better. (i admit if i did not have a prior pre-disposition to the carrying handle sights, the flip ups might seem OK)

That said -- and in keeping with original topic --- a carrying handle would seem awkward with a big long varmint style bull barrel and a free floating tube. For this type of use, i would not even deem backup sights necessary. OP already has a carbine upper anyway --- if it has a quality BCG and a stack of good magazines, it likely needs little else

[Hobie]

Knight's Armarment Corporation makes a fold down 600m rear sight, as does Matech. The KAC is a better sight overall, but the Matech does the job.

Considering the shorter sight radius, most people can't shoot irons with a carbine to their maximum effective range plus a hundred meters. Most are lucky to hit at 300m.

My problem is that I can't SEE targets at 300+ meters without movement. I can generally hit them with a quick series in a pattern if I know where they are but need contrast to actually do the one shot thing. The optics are a big help for me in that as well as eliminating concerns with sight radius. This is one reason I'm happy with 150-200 yard cartridge limitations as I'm not going to shoot further anyway. I can shoot to 500+ but that's on the range and with contrast between the target and background.

[MrMurphy]

I agree. Every rifle round in military service since 1940 has admitted that most firefights happen under 100m, most never exceed 300m, and most people can't SEE a man past 300m. Shooting at a group of troops or a truck at 500m, sure.......but one guy? Not only are most rounds ballistically ineffective at that point, but the odds of hitting the guy are slim with a single round. I know a guy who hit a guy in Afghanistan at 500+m with nothing more than an Aimpoint, but he's an expert shot and fired six rounds, basically walked them up the guy's body. The 5.56mm is a 300m round for antipersonnel purposes. Even the Garand had a government-specified individual target range of 400m with irons.

The Matech and KAC 600m rears come to the same height as a standard A2 rear (having spent considerable time with the Matech on the M4, and quite some time with a standard M16A2 over the years). Most people never really dial in range anyways, they kentucky it and aim off, which is why most fold downs (backups only) don't bother with anything complicated (since that makes breakage more likely). That's why the Troys are so popular......most people would be using them under 100m.


For a varmint upper, if you even fitted a BUIS, I would use the KAC 600m. The Matech has issues with being easily knocked off height settings (looking down and finding your BUIS, normally set for 300m at 600m, etc being common). The KAC is popular with ummm "very special people" who can shoot to the ability of the sight if they ever go to irons and the scope breaks, so it tends to be popular with expert shooters who want that capability.

I usually run a Troy rear, I'm an admitted 1-200m shooter most of the time.