Winchester 94 Wrangler, 16" barrel .44Magnum

[thornblom]

Does anybody here own and shoot one of these Winchester 94's w/16" barrel in .44 Magnum?
This rifle is one of those with the 1 turn in 38" twist rate. I have shot and reloaded ammo for this rifle extensively and other than the Speer 270 grain Gold Dot with 20 grains of WW-296, very few other loads show any promise of any kind of accuracy. The load with the 270 grain bullet is relatively accurate out to about 65 to 70 yards. 3 shot groups of about 2.5" at that distance. At 100 yards, 3.5 to 4 inches. I have tried the original barrel sights, Marbles barrel sights, Leupold 2.5 power scope with Leupold mounts and rings, and now XS Ghost sights. The best accuracy was with the Marbles barrel sights.

I have also tried the 240 grain jhp bullets from Speer and Hornady using H-110 and WW-296 with only fair accuracy. Really nothing to write home about.

I got some Oregon Trail 240 grain flat nosed round point bullets of .431" diameter and loaded these down to about 1350 ft/sec with various charges of Unique, Blue Dot, Herco and 2400 and so far 9.2 grains of Herco is the most accurate. Guestimated velocity is between 1300 and 1350 ft/sec. Got a few 1.25 inch groups at 50 yards.

Has anyone here experienced any problems getting these rifles to shoot reasonable groups?

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: This rifle hates all 300 grain bullets, cast or jacketed.

[J Miller]

Does anybody here own and shoot one of these Winchester 94's w/16" barrel in .44 Magnum?
This rifle is one of those with the 1 turn in 38" twist rate. I have shot and reloaded ammo for this rifle extensively and other than the Speer 270 grain Gold Dot with 20 grains of WW-296, very few other loads show any promise of any kind of accuracy. The load with the 270 grain bullet is relatively accurate out to about 65 to 70 yards. 3 shot groups of about 2.5" at that distance. At 100 yards, 3.5 to 4 inches. I have tried the original barrel sights, Marbles barrel sights, Leupold 2.5 power scope with Leupold mounts and rings, and now XS Ghost sights. The best accuracy was with the Marbles barrel sights.

I have also tried the 240 grain jhp bullets from Speer and Hornady using H-110 and WW-296 with only fair accuracy. Really nothing to write home about.

I got some Oregon Trail 240 grain flat nosed round point bullets of .431" diameter and loaded these down to about 1350 ft/sec with various charges of Unique, Blue Dot, Herco and 2400 and so far 9.2 grains of Herco is the most accurate. Guestimated velocity is between 1300 and 1350 ft/sec. Got a few 1.25 inch groups at 50 yards.

Has anyone here experienced any problems getting these rifles to shoot reasonable groups?

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: This rifle hates all 300 grain bullets, cast or jacketed.

I don't shoot a .44 but when you moved up in diameter and the groups shrunk that's a clue. Have you slugged the bore? Should be around .429", could be a bit larger.

Joe

[thornblom]

Thanks for your reply, and, no sir, I haven't slugged the bore, but that is a good idea.

Thanks again,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[alnitak]

I have a Wrangler in .44, and it's as accurate as I am with everything I put through it. Mostly, I shoot 240-285 gr. cast bullets, and generally shoot 50-100 yards. Of course, I don't have a scope on it, and mostly shoot offhand, so my accuracy is going to vary. But I have haven't noticed any difference between cast reloads and factory jacketed ammo. Then again, for me, I would consider 2.5" groups at 70 yards with iron sights to be extremely accurate!

I mostly use 2400 and AA#9 with between 17.5 and 19.5 grains of powder with a 240 LSWC, and have found the loads to be accurate. I also use AA#5 for both lighter and standard loads (10.5 and 14 gr. IIRC ... will have to check the labels). I actually find the #5 to be extremely accurate and cleaner than 2400.

[Grizz]

are the sights wiggly? it can happen, although more likely with Marlins.

is the crown perfect? bad crowns make guns shoot funny.

have you tried the old standby 240 jsp? I think the gun was designed around that load. Marlins use the same stupid twist and ours favors that 240 load.

after that you could try removing the forearm and seeing if that makes any difference.

lastly, any sign of keyholing on the standard weight bullets? sometimes shooting at twenty yards gives some interesting info, and any instability should show up close in, closer than that even may be useful.

and a check on constrictions and/or heavy fouling might turn up something. I personally don't fuss with light fouling and don't stress over the cleaning, and don't have any practical issues, although I very rarely shoot for paper groups.

hope you get onto it.

Regards,

Grizz

[thornblom]

OK, barrel slugs at .4295" at the muzzle. Barrel is clean and free of any kind of fouling whether lead, copper or powder residue. Sights are tight.

Maybe I should just enjoy shooting this rifle and not worry so much about gilt edged accuracy. After all, it is first a brush hunting weapon and then a fun gun, not a bench rest rifle. All in all, though, I do like accurate rifles. Maybe I'll try another round of load developement with 240 grain jhp's and upper end powders like WW-296, H-110 and 2400. A couple of weeks ago I was given an old square tin can of original Hercules 2400 powder, never been opened. Might be a sweet spot there between 19 and 21 grains of that powder.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[TuPapito]

The 2 best groups in my 94 came with H110 and the 240 grain Hornady XTP and H110 with a 250 grain Partition. Open sights at 100 yards can be whittled to about 1.5" if I do my part and take my time. Sorry it's not much help.

[76/444]

OK, barrel slugs at .4295" at the muzzle. Barrel is clean and free of any kind of fouling whether lead, copper or powder residue. Sights are tight.

Maybe I should just enjoy shooting this rifle and not worry so much about gilt edged accuracy. After all, it is first a brush hunting weapon and then a fun gun, not a bench rest rifle. All in all, though, I do like accurate rifles. Maybe I'll try another round of load developement with 240 grain jhp's and upper end powders like WW-296, H-110 and 2400. A couple of weeks ago I was given an old square tin can of original Hercules 2400 powder, never been opened. Might be a sweet spot there between 19 and 21 grains of that powder.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

Now that you have slugged it,... utilize that info. What are the diameters of the projectiles you are loading? One to two thousandths over bore diameter is highly recommended. I believe Hornady puts out factory ammo at .430. It is the only factory ammo I find worth shooting in my levers.

[thornblom]

So far my best load is using the Speer gold dot 270 grain jfp. It's diameter is .429" and I push it with 20 grains of WW-296. I have done some work with the Hornady 240 grain xtp hollow point (23 grains of WW-296) and as I remember, it showed some promise. And you are right, the Hornady's are .430" diameter. I have some reduced loads using the Oregon trail .431" diameter cast bullets. Also, several years ago, I loaded some 265 grain Hornadys with a charge of 22 grains H-110. They shot about like my 270 grain load but chrono'd at 1600 ft/sec. My 270's chrono at 1500 ft/sec.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[TedH]

My 44 shoots best with the 240 gr. Hornady over 24.0 gr. of H110. I think the .430" bullet diameter, rather than .429" helps. That has been a very accurate load in everything I've tried it in.

[thornblom]

Thanks Ted, at one time I was close to that load. Within 1 grain. More load developement on the way. And that is a good thing because it means more shooting, and I do enjoy that part.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[KentuckyLevrgunr]

I have a 94 Legacy .44 Mag with a 24" barrel. I've had really good luck with 240 grain SWCGC sized to .429 over 22 grains of H110 or 9 grains of Unique. I can't give any actual paper results, but I can easily and consistently knock over bowling pins offhand at 100 yards with open sights and I have no leading issues. Did I ever mention that I love this rifle?

[chadbr]

I had a last year production wrangler in 357 that would not group... hand to send it back for a refund. Very frustrating...

Chad

[madman4570]

Then again, for me, I would consider 2.5" groups at 70 yards with iron sights to be extremely accurate!

With a 16" lever carbine w/iron sights! a big +1 here too

[thornblom]

OK gentlemen, I got some Hornady 240 grain XTP hollow points, used Star-line .44 Magnum cases, CCI-350 LP magnum primers and 21 grains of the Old Hercules 2400 powder. Had all cases trimmed to 1.275" and did a relatively heavy crimp. I re-installed my 2.5x Leupold scope in those Leupold mounts and rings and went to the range. Sighted in at 25 yards and shot 5 shot group, 1 ragged hole less than an inch in diameter. Moved to 50 yards and the group was about 1 1/4 inches high with 5 shots in about 1 1/4 inches. At 100 yards the group was still a little high with 5 shots going into a group of about 2 1/4 inches. I would like it to be better, but actually, this is good enough. There are a lot of .30-30's out there that can't do any better. Then there are some that can. Now I just need to find a supply of this old Hercules 2400.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: Just guessing I would say the muzzle velocity is around 1600 ft/sec.
Trajectory table says if it is zeroed at 50 yards it will be about 2 3/4" low at 100 yards. This thing sure is awkward with a scope on it. I guess that is why I took it off several years ago.
I think I'll dig out the Marble rear barrel sight and the Williams Fire sight front, install and re-zero and call it good.

[76/444]

OK gentlemen, I got some Hornady 240 grain XTP hollow points, used Star-line .44 Magnum cases, CCI-350 LP magnum primers and 21 grains of the Old Hercules 2400 powder. Had all cases trimmed to 1.275" and did a relatively heavy crimp. I re-installed my 2.5x Leupold scope in those Leupold mounts and rings and went to the range. Sighted in at 25 yards and shot 5 shot group, 1 ragged hole less than an inch in diameter. Moved to 50 yards and the group was about 1 1/4 inches high with 5 shots in about 1 1/4 inches. At 100 yards the group was still a little high with 5 shots going into a group of about 2 1/4 inches. I would like it to be better, but actually, this is good enough. There are a lot of .30-30's out there that can't do any better. Then there are some that can. Now I just need to find a supply of this old Hercules 2400.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: Just guessing I would say the muzzle velocity is around 1600 ft/sec.
Trajectory table says if it is zeroed at 50 yards it will be about 2 3/4" low at 100 yards. This thing sure is awkward with a scope on it. I guess that is why I took it off several years ago.
I think I'll dig out the Marble rear barrel sight and the Williams Fire sight front, install and re-zero and call it good.

I think you should be very happy with these groups, I would,... and doubt you will get better. I would enjoy and forget the frustration by trying to get better.

[Blaine]

I prefer Jeff Cooper's concept of a good group.......One shot....did it hit?...Good group!!

[76/444]

I prefer Jeff Cooper's concept of a good group.......One shot....did it hit?...Good group!!

I like !!!

[Hank Dodge]

I've got both a 16" Trapper and a 22" Wrangler that I load .430 250 grain Keith slugs for. In a magnum case, it's 22 grains of 2400 and a std. large pistol primer for a fairly hot load. If I'm loading for just plinking fun, it will be 9 grains of Unique. Quite honestly, I don't look for tiny groups with these rifles. I'll generally shoot steel plates at different ranges for the fun of it. Both those loads will ring on a 12" square plate at 200 yards consistently if I do my part. With the open sights, I think that's fair enough.

I consider these rifles as quick handling. I'm not one to put a scope on a levergun.

[Old Time Hunter]

This was out of my Trapper...placed 2nd or 3rd in the last Ranch Dog Postal. Don't rightly know what the twist is, but it is faster than 1-38 cause the cleaning rod turns almost a full turn from stem to stern of the barrel. Actually almost 3/4 around when I am carefull:

[thornblom]

Thank you, Gentlemen.

I do appreciate your input.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[thornblom]

OK, I took the scope, mts and rings off the Wrangler and re-installed my Marbles semi buckhorn rear barrel sight and my Williams fire sight front sight. Tried several loads with these being the best:

Case: Starline .44 mag, 1.275" long
Primer: Federal 155 LPM
Powder: 20 grains WW-296
Bullet: Speer 270 grain Gold Dot
Muzzle Velocity: 1500 ft/sec
50 yard 5 shot group: 1.1" center to center bench rested

Case: Starline .44 mag, 1.275" long
Primer: Federal 155 LPM
Powder: 23 grains WW-296
Bullet: Hornady 240 grain XTP
Muzzle Velocity: 1600 ft/sec +
50 yard 5 shot group: 1.5" center to center bench rested

I don't think I can do any better than this. So, good enough.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: A strong roll crimp was applied to these loads with RCBS cowboy dies designed for loading cast lead bullets. It works good for jacketed bullets also. Just don't try to crimp too much or the case will buckle.

[jd45]

I had a Browning B-92 that I had trimmed to 16". With the 22GRH110/HORN265FP/CCI350 combo, it put 3 into 1.5" off the bench @ 100YDS. But, ya know,......even 3 or 4 inches @ 100 is still deer-killing grouping. The rifling was similar to Marlin's Micro-Groove. Wish I still had it. jd45

[AJMD429]

What is the difference between "Old" 2400 and "New" 2400...?

[J Miller]

What is the difference between "Old" 2400 and "New" 2400...?

Very little if any. About what you'd expect to find between different lots of it.

http://singleactions.proboards.com/inde ... hread=1763

About the only differences I've found is the new lots burn a bit cleaner and have a bit less flash.

Joe

[thornblom]

Old 2400 was made and distributed by "Hercules". New 2400 is made for Alliant. The difference is about 1 grain in max loads. Contrary to popular belief, old 2400 actually does perform better with a mag primer.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[AJMD429]

Thanks for the info, Joe.

It's interesting the one poster on Sixguns said his results were worse with the magnum primers, and mine were better, but I still think my issue with the .44 Mag loads is the crimp, and it may just be that I'm not crimping them firmly enough. That little Lee 'mallet' loader may not have made very uniform crimps (...let's see...was that 11 whacks, or 12, so far...), but perhaps it made really firm ones I'm not used to doing on my press. Most of my press reloading to date has been bottleneck, pointy-bullet stuff that crimps relatively gently.

I need a 'crimpometer' so I can tell what really a 'firm' crimp is, I guess...

Pertinent to the thread, not only am I now loading for my own Ruger 96/44 and son's Marlin 1894, but My daughter's Puma that is the same 16" barrel setup as thornblom's. We've yet to see how good it will get, but it will kill the 8" gong at 100 yards fairly reliably.

[edited] thornblom, you posted faster than I responded...!

Do you mean you have to load lighter, or stiffer, with the current 2400?

I see the Alliant site says to use 21 grains with the 240 grain bullets, period. No 'starting' or 'maximum' range given for any of their 2400 loads.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/ ... 7&bdid=170
The Lee 2nd ed. manual lists 'Herco 2400' at 17.0 start 18.7 maximum for a 240 gr. JSP. Lyman 49th ed. says 18.4 start to 20.5 maximum for '2400' and a 240 gr. JSP, so what gives? My primers start to flow into the ejector cut in the Puma with 20 grains, but otherwise the loads don't seem high pressure.

[alnitak]

... but I still think my issue with the .44 Mag loads is the crimp, and it may just be that I'm not crimping them firmly enough. ... I need a 'crimpometer' so I can tell what really a 'firm' crimp is, I guess...

I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die with about 3/4 of a turn. That gives me a med-hard crimp that seems to work well with LSWCs.

[thornblom]

If I remember correctly, old Lyman manuals list 22 grains of Hercules 2400 as max with 240 grain jhp's.
Some newer manuals list 21 grains of Alliant 2400 as max with 240 grain jhp's.

I haven't used the new stuff yet as I have at least 3 pounds of the old stuff.

As I remember. Keith reccommended the standard large pistol primer with Herculas 2400 because he was using plain base Keith style 250 grain SWC bullets cast 16 to 1 lead to tin. With the mag primer he claimed that the base of the bullet was "fusing" (melting around the edges), with the standard primer he had no such problem.

With jacketed bullets there is no "fusing" problem. In using the mag primer, I get a more complete burn of the powder charge, (cleaner burning). And standard deviations are smaller.

I have used Winchester (Super X), Remington and Starline .44 mag cases all trimmed to 1.275". Starline seems to always yeald better numbers all the way around. The Starline cases are heavier than the others so that may have something to do with the better performance (heavier cases, somewhat higher pressure, thicker case mouths equate to better crimp, maybe). With H-110, WW-296 and 2400, a strong roll crimp also helps with cleaner burn, less deviation and better accuracy.

Just my opinions. May not be worth much, but these are the things I have noticed over the past 43 years of reloading ammo. None of this is news. More knowledgeable reloaders than I have been saying the same things for decades.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom