OT - Double rifle caliber for

[rjohns94]

North American Hunting. It is likely that this rifle will see mostly range time and hunting game up to including stuff that roams down in HONDO, TX. Here are the choices:

.375 H&H a world wide caliber, good for anything this side of the world and minimum cartridge for buff on the dark continent.

9.3 x 74R - less powerful, more plaines type game

45-70 - we know what that can do.

My thoughts:

I would love to have a .470, always been a dream but I will pass on it for one I could use more often.

Ive had a 30-06 and a 45-70 double. the '06 was not really a quality piece and didn't satisfy me Big Bore desire. The 45-70 was nice, but I felt limited to factory low pressure loads.

the 375 is one of my all time favorites. I like the idea that I could use this anywhere in the world should I get to hunt Africa with 86er, but I do know that I will get to hondo again after a big bovine. I am certainly leaning towards this one.

The 9.3 is one cartridge that I know little about.

What do you think?

[dr walker]

I think any would do the trick, but I love the looks of the 9.3x74 cartridge, nice long taper with a rim. I have never owned one, so I have no idea if reloading components are readily available.

[86er]

Unless you are going to shoot the 375 Flanged, I prefer the 9.3X74 R. Norma ammo and Rhino bullets offer 300 grain bullets for this caliber. You will likely have to change the rear or front sight to accomodate elevation, but it puts the 9.3 in the same league as a 375 H&H without too much strain. I've used the 286 and 293 grain bullets to shoot plains game and an American Bison. It is legal for dangerous game in most, but not all African countries. Light recoil and you can sight in the right barrel with a lighter bullet and a scope if you have any need to use it 200 yds or more. How about a 450 NE? The .458 bullets are easy to come by and a 500 gr at 2150 is the usual regulation charge. It is awesome on buff, and more than adequate on elephant. BTW - the 470 is NOT a big gun. It is in the same catagory as all the 500gr/2150 fps cartridges and often with LESS penetration. The British made it for women and children to protect the garden. In spite of a lot of hype in the US, it is good for ground squirrels and chipmunks. If you need to stop something big you need at least a 500NE. With that in mind, why not go with a cartridge in the 500/2150 catagory that doesn't stomp you for no reason?

[kimwcook]

Mike, Joe would be the voice of reason if'n I was looking for a double.

One thing I've never understood is the price for doubles. Maybe, someone could explain that to me. Joe?

[86er]

If I were to get a double rifle, I would want one of English decent. London or Birmingham doesn't matter. These were made in the heyday of gunmaking where each part was hand fitted and hours were not counted or tracked. The "continental" guns from German, Austria, Italy, France and others are okay if they are pre 1940, however those countries were hung up on heft and the rifles are not as smooth, balanced or flowing. That pretty much eliminates the 9.3's as they are a continental invention that was not embraced by the English. I can get a brand new Chapius double rifle for a hair under $5000. This is a good value considering it is essentially two quality rifles timed and synched perfectly together. I can buy Merkel wholesale and they are a good product. Einar Hoff (a native Alabaman in spite of the coincidence of the very German name) is a good buddy and is receptive of praise and criticism. I recently was asked to field test their Merkel and Grulla shotguns. These Merkels are in the $8000 range. The biggest part of the price in what I call a "real" double rifle - one with fixed muzzles - is regulating. It takes dozens and even 100 hours plus ammo to regulate the barrels perfectly. Also, you cannot skimp on the stock fitting from the blank to the inletting or they would split every couple of shots. A well made double that is perfectly regulated is worth every penny. New models including Blaser, Merkel, et al. try to sell you "modern technology and ingenuity" with their muzzle block system where you can adjust the muzzles yourself with set screws. Hogwash! That is a company that doesn't know how or won't take the time to do it right so they spew "innovation" to keep the price up where "real" double rifles are priced. Mike - if you have ideas I can help you get one.

[KWK]

I've never understood is the price for doubles

1) They are fairly low volume production, so you end up with more hand labor and less automation.

2) You're pretty much buying two complete rifles on one stock.

3) The barrels are traditionally soldered together. To get them to "regulate" to a common point of impact requires a fair amount of trial and error fitting of the two barrels.

[Thunder50]

Listen to what 86er says. I would use my Valmet 412 9.3 x 74R (was looking for a 375 also, but this came along and for the $$, couldn't resist--Hornady makes ammo/brass) for elk or our American Bison, but if you are going down "Hondo way" then something bigger, as I would do if I was going to South Texas. Don't know your budget, but 45cal. sounds about right(or even bigger). Load for it and you might even want one of the 500NE's. Cast bullet (boolit for others) plinking loads, but barrels probably won't be regulated for the light loads, but you never know.

Have one of the inexpensive 30-06 o/u rifles, but I agree, just doesn't satisfy the "double rifle" longing.

[rjohns94]

Joe, sent a pm on the chapius rifle in 404 jeffries or bigger. thanks

[TedH]

I would love to have a .470, always been a dream but I will pass on it for one I could use more often.

Why not just get what you want? You can use the 470 on deer, hogs or whatever. It'll just kill them a little more deader.

[rjohns94]

Ted, generally the 470's run about 4-5k$ more than the 9.3's. They seem to be more desirable. I am keeping my options open and looking into the possibilities. the double rifle is the last of my desired firearms.

Would be nice to have a .470 to go with my 475 linebaugh.

[RKrodle]

Would be nice to have a .470 to go with my 475 linebaugh.

Mike you would be a big hit with that combo at the cowboy action shoots .

[rjohns94]

Ricky, i suppose I would have to go with like an 8 gauge shotgun!!

[TedH]

Ted, generally the 470's run about 4-5k$ more than the 9.3's. :

Well, you have a point there.

[madman4570]

Mike, I know, well find you a nice 3.5" 10ga double.Get a good gunsmith to cut some nice rifling into the barrels and have Belt Mountain turn out some 875gr .775 punch bullets ????

Caliber .775 Mag Express Ok, wheres the straight jacket!!!!!!????

[Lastmohecken]

Maybe the 9.3 would be the way to go. One thing to keep in mind, is that most double rifles are regulated for only one load, and that load will be a full house load, so it would be my guess that shooting lighter loads might not work that well in a double unless you were only using one barrel.

So with that in mind, I would think the 9.3 would be more useful, and my second choice would be a 375 Flanged, however I would think that it would kick harder, but a double is usually not that light a gun. I used to use a regular 375 HH bolt gun for my deer hunting, but I was using lighter bullets then normal.

The only double rifle I have used was a 54 cal muzzleloader, and I often loaded it with different loads for each barrel to get it to come together. I used it during our muzzleloading season for quite a few years, and took several deer with it, but I was never real happy with the accuracy when firing both barrels, but it was minute of deer.

[Lastmohecken]

Mike, I know, well find you a nice 3.5" 10ga double.Get a good gunsmith to cut some nice rifling into the barrels and have Belt Mountain turn out some 875gr .775 punch bullets ????

Caliber .775 Mag Express Ok, wheres the straight jacket!!!!!!????

Well, believe it or not, but I used to duck hunt with a 3.5" 10ga side by side, and it was one heck of a long range duck gun, but shot so tight that it was not that great at the closer ranges, and it was heavy, so I got the bright idea to cut the barrels off a few inches and add rifle sights to it. I had rifle sights on it originally also, before I cut the barrels. That opened the patterns up and it shot great over decoys then.

But later I put it up for sale, as I wasn't duck hunting much, and sold it at a table I had at a gunshow. The old man that bought it, wanted it for hog hunting in TENN. He planned to use slugs. I seen him at another gunshow several years later, and he told me that he cut the forend down from the original beavertail to a thin sliver forend and still had the gun. I tried to buy it back from him but he would have none of it.

[Bang]

my mate came back from from RSA with a Chapui .375 flanged SBS - he said it was much more fun than a bolt.

Anyone try one of the over/under versions ? Chapui and Browning custom shop make them.

I know the resale isn't as good as a SBS - but the 0/U seems like a posssiblility in 375

[rjohns94]

the overunders can be had for less money than the SxS. I shot a friends Valmet years ago and it shot well, but I have to say, SxS just feel better if you can find the right one. Many are just plain heavy and cumbersome like Joe mentions above. I think too he is right on track with the english versions being a bit better, lighter, more finely tuned than many of the other rifles out there. the 9.3 has much merit as I do more and more research, especially in the Norma 286 grain load. Certainly would cover N. American hunting and would be very suitable for plains game if scoped. My options are many. Going to look at some Chapius rifles later this week, and Joe and I are talking about an English gun also. Keep your comments comming and I would really like to hear about anyones experience with the 9.3's if you have them. It is an interesting round.

[Charles]

Double rifles have a great appeal to them, but they are a holdover from the time when men faced teeth, horns and claws with rifles and ammo that were not as reliable as what we have today. It was not likely that both locks and the ammo in both barrels would roll snake eyes on the same day.

Today, fewer and fewer hunter including the professionals need or use double rifles. The magazine rifle rules!

Thefore today a double rifle is a toy for a gun nut with deep pockets. I would like to have a double rifle, just because they are wonderful pieces of workmanship and the high water mark of gun making. But with no need to stop dangerous game I would want something on the order of a 30-06. I have often though a good Holland and Holland Imperial grade double in 30-30 would be the ultimate brush deer popper or maybe a 35 whelen. I certainly wouldn't want anything bigger than the good old 375 Holland and Holland.

The good old BRitish gunmakers will make you just about anything for the money.

Holland and Holland has the double rifle I want in their London gun room. It is a 375 H and H made within a few years of it's introduction for the King or Romania. It is one of the few true left handed doubles, with the triggers placed in the guard for lefhanded person and the thump piece throwing in the opporite direction.

[44magHunter]

If I was gonna get a double rifle, I would go with either:
*375 H&H
*35 Whelen
*45-70 Gov.

I do agree that 375 would probably be the best choice, but any of the other two would suit my needs. Of course if I was going to actually hunt African game I would go for something more like 416 Rigby ( ) or 416 Remington Ultra-Magnum. ( )

[Ravenman]

My vote goes to the 9.3x74R. Very kind to the shooters shoulder and easy to reload. Most double rifles work good with the 270grs. Speer bullets.

[gimdandy]

Mike .............ALL
I don't know how to post a link and possibly some one else will do it , but if you go to the Cabelas' site then library and item #1409973 you will not have wasted your time . I have viewed and handled this arm in person and it is a work of art. Another thing that in my mind is a plus is it's chambered in 9.3x74R. Fascinating gun. A good friend has a George Hoenig ordered and about pd. for but is still 2 years out of delivery. He has more than a year and a half to decide on caliber but feels it will be a .30 something. His gun and his money so he is going to get what he feel will get used the most

[rjohns94]

that is a beaut but at $29,500, its a bit out of my reach.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conte ... =SEARCH_gl

[gimdandy]

It's not a bit outta my reach ...It's WAY OUT . Nevertheless it is beautiful. I have a hard time with any gun putting a scratch on them and yet what good are they unless they are used.
Just thought you might enjoy looking at a unique and fine made arm. Mike that would be my caliber of choice unless I stepped up to a 50 alaskan and I'd need to do a lot more research on it but at this point I'd sure look into it ( for me ). actually quite exciting for you I'm sure, looking for this prize of a gun and the ideal caliber. good luck and have fun searching

[rjohns94]

Okay guys, I have struck a deal with a local guy and I will have the rifle in short order. I decided on the 9.3 x 74 R for many reasons. I started wanting a stopping rifle, and ended up with a stalker instead. $$$ is a factor, and the stopping rifles were basically double the $$$. I chose a modern gun maker and a NIB rifle (Chapius UGEX) with a coin finish. I chose modern over older guns because of regulation of heavier bullets in the newer version and because I intend to shoot this one a lot and I was told by many (not all) that the older rifles need to get refaced every 500 shots or so. (Champlin arms, Kebco, and some shooters from Vintage world cup). I chose the 9.3 because it is not overkill in the deer woods, and can be scoped for plains game out to 200 yards or so. Also, I have never had that caliber, it is an interesting one, coming out between a 35 Wheelen and the .375. It should be good for all north america and if i ever get to the dark continent with rifle, it will do for any game i might be after. So there you have it, a new rifle and a new caliber ..... Drinks all around!!!! pictures to follow once I pick it up. If I can get it figured out I just may go to the Vintage sxs world championships in Maryland in September.

[RKrodle]

Congratulations Mike! I can't wait to see the pictures and read the range report.

[Arminius]

I would guide you towards the 9.3 x74 R, too - it´s versatile and carriable and will do for anything in NA - except for long range.

Next steps:

.375 Flanged - MUCH mor expensive, bigger case and PRICEY cases. Lots of good bullets

.375 H & H - too much pressure. It´s a bolt action round.

.450/400 3 1/4" versatile, but not cheap. Unusal bullet dia

..416 Krieghoff or Assegai (?) - newfangled round ( ~ .450/416 ), good bullets there

.450 NE - the Daddy of them all! Use whatever .458 bullet you like, load it down to .45-90 or .45 - 70 levels for bush hunting and driven hunts on Pigs.

Take your chance.

If I had the money, I think you might guess my choice from the comments above ...



Have fun!

Hermann

[gimdandy]

Gongrats Mike,
Great caliber, really want to see "the " pics . Thanks for including us in the process.
You said drinks all around, I ordered my diet coke and found out you don't have an account there

[TedH]

Congratulations Mike! I can't wait to see the pictures and read the range report.

+1