bear protection

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:15 pm

66GTO,
Thats it! the S&W wesson is for sale, I want a Redhawk & Grizz's loads in it .
That was riveting, I had no idea it was so prevelent.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:07 am

mescalero1 wrote:66GTO,
Thats it! the S&W wesson is for sale, I want a Redhawk & Grizz's loads in it .
That was riveting, I had no idea it was so prevelent.

Now you're getting it!

BTW, I think Marshall has that bullet going 1100 fps in his top load, but it's much more pressure and recoil, and his gun seems to get higher velocities than mine, I don't know why.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:21 am

My brother lived in Kenai and Soldotna, AK, for years before his death. I always wanted to hunt a brownie and beings he was immediate family I wouldn't have to hire a guide. He could guide me. Whenever we talked about this he would get real nervous. I could even hear it in his voice. He wasn't much afraid of anything, but he definitely got jumpy talking bears. He said he wouldn't go hunting them with anything smaller than his Win. 458 mag. He had a lot of horror stories with brown bears. One tough animal not to be underestimated.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:12 am

66GTO wrote:
Cosmoline wrote: and the horrible killings on McHugh in 95.
Is this what you are referring to (from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ... cade#1990s)?

Marcie Trent, 77, female; and her son, Larry Waldron, 45 July 1, 1995 Brown Killed by a bear defending a moose carcass on the McHugh Creek Trail near Anchorage,

Yes, that's the incident. They were jogging/hiking up the trail and were attacked. It's one of those incidents that may just amount to wrong place/wrong time. I don't know if Ms. Trent would have been able to use a firearm, but from my understanding of the events Mr. Waldron could have deployed one if he'd had it.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:00 pm

back to my assertion about .45 ACP having loads that are better than a lot of alternatives, check out this bullet:

452-230-TC

http://www.factorysales.com/html/catalog/bullmol2.html

With some alloys that casts around 240+. A hard cast bullet with that flat meplat will far outpenetrate hollowpoint bullets, and for woods walking this one would be my choice for 45 ACP.

So, in the bear-is-sitting-on-you scenario, this bullet at 900+ fps is "probably" going to give sufficient penetration into the CNS. I don't have the bullets yet so I don't have video evidence. But this is close to black powder .45 Colt performance, is it not? This bullet is certainly going to give better performance against bone than 38spl+p or even .357 mag. It's not the worst choice.

I was aquainted with someone who deer called a hungry brown bear that knocked his deer rifle out of his hands and ate the man's guts while he screamed loud enough to be heard four miles away. That's how they feed, they eat you alive.

I propose that if my aquaintance was armed with a .45 ACP loaded with hard cast 240g bullets there's a chance he would be alive to tell us about it. I don't think it's as great as my redhawk load, but it's in a gun with 14 rounds in it instead of 6... hmmm.... I think I have to rethink my bear-woods tactics and carry two handguns.

OK, time for jokes again

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:10 pm

If I hunted another bear, I would want to use my longbow. for surprise encounters, I still want my 475 on my hip

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:35 pm

I think you'll need something big for this guy.

An article said it measured 10'6" and weighted between 1000-1200 lbs. - And it's not a record grizzley. Shot with a .338

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/animal ... y-Bear.htm

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:52 pm

Grizz wrote:OK, time for jokes again

Okay, remember the old Far Side cartoon, where the two bears come upon several campers snoozing in sleeping bags, and one bear says, "Sandwiches!"?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:00 pm

Grizz wrote:back to my assertion about .45 ACP having loads that are better than a lot of alternatives, check out this bullet:

452-230-TC

http://www.factorysales.com/html/catalog/bullmol2.html

With some alloys that casts around 240+. A hard cast bullet with that flat meplat will far outpenetrate hollowpoint bullets, and for woods walking this one would be my choice for 45 ACP.

So, in the bear-is-sitting-on-you scenario, this bullet at 900+ fps is "probably" going to give sufficient penetration into the CNS. I don't have the bullets yet so I don't have video evidence. But this is close to black powder .45 Colt performance, is it not? This bullet is certainly going to give better performance against bone than 38spl+p or even .357 mag. It's not the worst choice.

I was aquainted with someone who deer called a hungry brown bear that knocked his deer rifle out of his hands and ate the man's guts while he screamed loud enough to be heard four miles away. That's how they feed, they eat you alive.

I propose that if my aquaintance was armed with a .45 ACP loaded with hard cast 240g bullets there's a chance he would be alive to tell us about it. I don't think it's as great as my redhawk load, but it's in a gun with 14 rounds in it instead of 6... hmmm.... I think I have to rethink my bear-woods tactics and carry two handguns.

OK, time for jokes again

If you have a fully-supported chamber in your .45ACP or you have used heavy-web brass, AND you drop in a HEAVY Wolff sprimg & buffer pad into your 1911 you most certainly drive those hard-cast TCs to more than sufficient penetrating velocities. Takes a little tweaking, but it can be done. Not as good as a revolver cartridge, but it can get pretty close to .45 Win Mag...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:05 pm

JustaJeepGuy wrote:
Grizz wrote:OK, time for jokes again
Okay, remember the old Far Side cartoon, where the two bears come upon several campers snoozing in sleeping bags, and one bear says, "Sandwiches!"?

Remember the one where the hunter prays "Father let this be a Christian bear", and the bear prays, "Father bless this food that I am about to receive."

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:11 pm

Grizz wrote:
JustaJeepGuy wrote:
Grizz wrote:OK, time for jokes again
Okay, remember the old Far Side cartoon, where the two bears come upon several campers snoozing in sleeping bags, and one bear says, "Sandwiches!"?
Remember the one where the hunter prays "Father let this be a Christian bear", and the bear prays, "Father bless this food that I am about to receive."

I didn't see that one, but that's funny!!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:41 pm

Jack it up with a 28# spring...
Speer JHP 260 .451 1.240" COAL 8.2gr Pwr Pistol CCI#300 1000fps 577ftlbs

http://www.realguns.com/archives/090.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/091.htm
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:47 pm

I love talking/listening/reading about anything to do with bear hunting.Though they are very dangerous animals, I dont know it just gives me that little bit of "wild thrill" feeling when walking the woods.
I will say,not talking about baiting them in a tree but on the ground it gives me enough exitement hunting them.Its amazing actually how quite and elusive they are.I have seen good sized bears run a section of woods about 100yrds across down a big ravine/back up other side of big ravine and out of sight in like a blink of an eye.I am talking like what a deer does.Sure aint going to outrun that baby!Its that maybe going to get you feeling.I say this now but probably if it ever gets to where it almost does!I will probably say"I dont want to talk about it)

I think we can make it to page 20 on this thread!

"I will keep my money guns and freedom,you can keep your CHANGE"

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:05 pm

I think I have to rethink my bear-woods tactics and carry two handguns.

Or one long gun.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:55 pm

Cosmoline wrote:
I think I have to rethink my bear-woods tactics and carry two handguns.
Or one long gun.

didja miss this part?

someone who deer called a hungry brown bear that knocked his deer rifle out of his hands and ate the man's guts

I need to get a lanyard attached to my hand guns to have the correct tactical setup: gun on a rope.

Grizz

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:01 pm

Grizz,
Just got it in the mail, thanks cuz, I owe you one
Now the good part:
It fits all six holes in my 629!!!!!!!!!!!

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:02 pm

If plan B is to try to draw and fire a handgun from your hip while a brown bear is eating you, may I suggest a different Plan A. If it can knock the rifle from your hands, it can certainly knock a handgun away as well. Or remove the arm.

someone who deer called a hungry brown bear that knocked his deer rifle out of his hands and ate the man's guts

Which one was this? Who heard him screaming? I've never heard of it.

66GTO · Post by **66GTO** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:18 pm

Cosmoline wrote:If plan B is to try to draw and fire a handgun from your hip while a brown bear is eating you, may I suggest a different Plan A. If it can knock the rifle from your hands, it can certainly knock a handgun away as well. Or remove the arm.

Or remove the leg. There is a picture on that urban legends link on the previous page of this thread of a poor fellow (what there is left of him) who did not survive a bear attack. It makes me want to keep something solid between me and the black bear who was in my garbage last night.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:23 pm

A few folks are kinda talking down the rope idea, but it has merits. Now I'm not talking a lanyard on a long gun, but one on a handgun. Soem years back, I picked up an old S&W 1917. Naturally, it had a lanyard ring. I thought it just a left over curiosity from a bygone era. But I gave it a try. Guess what, them old guys had a good idea. I started to use one after I dropped a very expensive knife during a break on a hike. I got lucky, backtracked, and found it. But now, I have lanyards on a number of handguns. Not for bears mind you, but then again, it might come in handy there, as well.

Wow, 9 pages and counting.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:22 pm

because is likely that i'm gonna have a .40 or 357or a 45auto on me, i'll still rely on them for bear protection as opposed to bear hunting. they've been killed with bigger and smaller, but if its all i have, the bears going down.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:23 pm

bet it goes to 10 now.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:03 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Grizz,
Just got it in the mail, thanks cuz, I owe you one
Now the good part:
It fits all six holes in my 629!!!!!!!!!!!

wow! I had no idea and have to retract everything I ever said about that round in Smiths. good deal, glad it'll work for ya!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:17 pm

Cosmoline wrote:If plan B is to try to draw and fire a handgun from your hip while a brown bear is eating you, may I suggest a different Plan A. If it can knock the rifle from your hands, it can certainly knock a handgun away as well. Or remove the arm.

someone who deer called a hungry brown bear that knocked his deer rifle out of his hands and ate the man's guts
Which one was this? Who heard him screaming? I've never heard of it.

Where do you live? Are you in the interior? There's no reason you would have heard of it.

I've forgotten a lot of the details, like the guy's name, the name of his boat, and the exact location where he was killed.
He was deer hunting alone north of Port Alexander on the inside. I forget where he was anchored. He might have been heard in PA but I think maybe the next little bight up, I forget the name of that too.

If you weren't involved in the fishing community in southeast during the time you wouldn't have heard about it. I got most of the information I've forgotten second hand from the guys who killed the bear and recovered the remains, much of which were in the bear's tummy.

If you're a researcher you can go thru the Juneau Empire microfiche and get the public record of it. Probably in the Petersberg paper too.

People have defended themselves successfully with handguns at contact distances after having been jumped. It's one reason I carry my DA revolver crossdraw in a location where I can retrieve it from with either hand.

IME the only people who have something to fear from bears are the ones who already know everything there is to know about them.

Grizz

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:46 pm

It will NOT cycle in my Rossi 92

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:02 pm

mescalero1 wrote:It will NOT cycle in my Rossi 92

yeah it's a loooong thing isn't it?

Marshall thinks it will cycle in a Browning 1892. I got the 355g bullet to cycle in mine, and it is nearly as long as the 405g. I still have that project to revitalize.

Will it go in the loading gate?

There are some mods that will let '92 actions feed longer rounds. I bet Nate is the go-to guy on that business.

But can you imagine that bullet mosying out of a carbine at 1000+ fps??

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:37 pm

Yes, it will go in the gate it got hung up in the tube and the lifter can not raise it, the tip is still in the tube.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:53 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Yes, it will go in the gate it got hung up in the tube and the lifter can not raise it, the tip is still in the tube.

I think the cartridge stop on the lifter can be shaved to get the clearance, but it's Nate who knows how to do this and make the timing right. Somewhere on the net there are some photos of the bits that need changing to accept a longer cartridge, but I don't have those bookmarks any more.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:21 am

Hopefully Nate is following this thread and will chime in.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:34 am

IME the only people who have something to fear from bears are the ones who already know everything there is to know about them.

From what I've seen of them, no matter how well you're armed this side of a tank you have something to fear from a bear. It's a very good thing they aren't out to get us or they could be having us for dinner a lot more than they do.

All I know is I can hit acquire targets much faster, hit more accurately and with greater power with a long gun than a short one. The short one I keep for Anchorage CCW. Some guys can bullseye running hares with a sixgun at fifty yards, but I'm not one of them and neither are most people. Of course it's no guarantee, but nothing is. A bear can knock a rifle or handgun right out of your hands, surprise you from a thicket, barrel out of a den, knock you off a bike, even bash its way into your basement. To choose the less powerful, less accurate weapon because someone sometime had a larger weapon knocked away by a bear seems ill advised. A sow was stopped in one attack by a 9 mm, but I'm not about to start using one for bear defense.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:13 am

Cosmo, bless your heart, I don't think you're listening. I never said I carry a hand gun INSTEAD of a rifle. I carry a handgun or two IN ADDITION to a Marlin GS with 525g hard cast bullets that penetrate a dozen water jugs. The hand guns are in case I get disarmed, or set it down and get jumped.

So, in bear country, which sometimes is the area beneath my house, and including the entire Tongass, I carry a rifle and a hand gun or two....

Sounds like YOU'RE the one in danger of getting disarmed....

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:23 am

Cosmoline wrote:A sow was stopped in one attack by a 9 mm, but I'm not about to start using one for bear defense.

A year or so back, some guy (in an inuit village, as I recall) killed a Polar bear that was trying to get into his house with an AR in .223. I've heard of folks killing bears with everything from a knife to a hammer, but I'm not suggesting it.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:43 am

Grizz wrote:I carry a handgun or two IN ADDITION to a Marlin GS with 525g hard cast bullets that penetrate a dozen water jugs. The hand guns are in case I get disarmed, or set it down and get jumped.

Apologies, for some reason I thought you were saying you would carry two handguns. I think we're on the same page.

A year or so back, some guy (in an inuit village, as I recall) killed a Polar bear that was trying to get into his house with an AR in .223.

They love that cartridge in the villages, I suppose because it's so cheap--or at least it used to be--and easy to pack around. Yet you don't hear about too many natives getting mauled. A polar bear got a fella up on the slope a long while back, but that's the only incident I can think of. I've heard they will give bears a "belly ache" if they get too close to the human areas. The idea is the bear's distress from a .223 in the gut will send a signal to other bears not to come in. Another on my list of ideas I'm not going to try.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:17 pm

A fella down south of Cody nailed a grizz off his porch with a .223. One shot in the neck. Bear was pretty much DRT. Big one too...

Would I pack nothing but a .223 in the back country around here? NOT HARDLY...

Heavy .45 Colt loads, or a .475 Linebaugh, along with my .45-70, or 12-ga loaded with Brenneke 600 gr. slug and 000 Buck, thank you very much.

Bears of any breed are amazingly swift to get into action. That's how they make their living during prime-rib season, Gents...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:47 pm

Met a girl who was a cook on a survey crew in the Brooks Range. She killed a bear with a .22 rifle that came in the tent after her.

But like the other guy said, I don't recommend it.

For guys who might need to stop a bear someday, nothing beats setting up penetration tests and knowing what your preferred caliber/bullet/load will and won't do.

I've been around a number of bears, and I'm sure more than I know have been around me, but I never felt like I actually had a fighting chance until I got the heavies loaded in the 45/70.

Doesn't mean that I have the right stuff, but it does mean that my rifle, and now my hand gun, have the right stuff....

Grizz

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:04 pm

some guy (in an inuit village, as I recall) killed a Polar bear that was trying to get into his house with an AR in .223.

Well if the bears are carrying AR's now we're all sunk.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:41 pm

El Chivo wrote:
some guy (in an inuit village, as I recall) killed a Polar bear that was trying to get into his house with an AR in .223.
Well if the bears are carrying AR's now we're all sunk.

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:35 pm

I went camping in Yosemite Nat'l Park once, and set up the tent in the dark with snow falling. In the morning, there was a line of bear tracks along the trail, showing that the bear came along and circled every tent that was there (and there were A BUNCH of people camping). Nobody got eaten that night, but a really hungry bear could have eaten well.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:50 pm

Well I thought I would enter my 2 cents on this long thread. The only big bear I have gotten close to was a Kodiak Bear that was pinned up in the Fort Worth Zoo in the 50s and 60s. It was always mad and would rush the bars when kids would torment him. He would scare the be-gibbers out of me. I didn't say anything to him, just smile and be ready to run. They finally had to put him to sleep. What a bear!

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:58 pm

When I was real young, I was in Ruidoso with my Aunt , she was out bar hopping and I was alone at the cabin, remember Ruidoso was just a village then.
I finished supper, and decided to take the garbage out to the can, behind the cabin,did not take my gun, when I got to the can I heard the loudest WOOF!! I went one way , the bear went another, saw the bear crossing the river as I went in the cabin.
Sat with my beer AND my gun for a long time.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:01 pm

Grizz wrote:Met a girl who was a cook on a survey crew in the Brooks Range. She killed a bear with a .22 rifle that came in the tent after her.

But like the other guy said, I don't recommend it.

For guys who might need to stop a bear someday, nothing beats setting up penetration tests and knowing what your preferred caliber/bullet/load will and won't do.

I've been around a number of bears, and I'm sure more than I know have been around me, but I never felt like I actually had a fighting chance until I got the heavies loaded in the 45/70.

Doesn't mean that I have the right stuff, but it does mean that my rifle, and now my hand gun, have the right stuff....

Grizz

For bear loads in a handgun, I'd take a heavy frame revolver, load it with a heavy bullet and enough powder to make you do a good crouch hop every time you fire it, then back it off two grains!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:02 pm

El Chivo wrote:
some guy (in an inuit village, as I recall) killed a Polar bear that was trying to get into his house with an AR in .223.
Well if the bears are carrying AR's now we're all sunk.

Hey, even I laughed at that one!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:40 pm

Your story Rangerider made me remember a Brownie that was in the Bismarck, ND Zoo. His name was Clyde and he was huge. The zoo claimed he was the biggest brown bear in captivity. I don't remember how high he could reach (they had a scale on the bars) or how much he weighed, but IIRC he was something like 1,000-1,200 lbs. Did I say he was HUGE?

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:10 am

JustaJeepGuy wrote:I went camping in Yosemite Nat'l Park once, and set up the tent in the dark with snow falling. In the morning, there was a line of bear tracks along the trail, showing that the bear came along and circled every tent that was there (and there were A BUNCH of people camping). Nobody got eaten that night, but a really hungry bear could have eaten well.

I'm not so sure bears WANT to eat people, as we don't look like food to them and taste funny. Of course, if in the course of a mauling a bear is confronted with a pile of steaming human guts, it may go ahead.

I would like to hear from those who know more about humans actually being EATEN by bears, as opposed to just being killed by bears defending their kills or cubs.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:36 am

I would like to hear from those who know more about humans actually being EATEN by bears, as opposed to just being killed by bears defending their kills or cubs.

somewhere up above I posted details about someone a bear ate.... there are lots of examples in the literature. bears eat whatever they want to eat, whenever they feel like it.

I'm curious how you'd know how humans taste to bears?

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:30 am

El Chivo wrote:
JustaJeepGuy wrote:I'm not so sure bears WANT to eat people, as we don't look like food to them and taste funny.

And just how do you know that?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:34 am

Travis Morgan wrote:
El Chivo wrote:
JustaJeepGuy wrote:I'm not so sure bears WANT to eat people, as we don't look like food to them and taste funny.

And just how do you know that?

Mmmmm. Long Pork...

Secret's in the Sauce...

OTOH, Hippies are stringy and you don't want to know how nasty human lard is...

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:48 am

Old Ironsights wrote:
Travis Morgan wrote:
El Chivo wrote:
JustaJeepGuy wrote:I'm not so sure bears WANT to eat people, as we don't look like food to them and taste funny.

And just how do you know that?
Mmmmm. Long Pork...

Secret's in the Sauce...

OTOH, Hippies are stringy and you don't want to know how nasty human lard is...

You've obviously not seen my wife.

silverbuzzard · Post by **silverbuzzard** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:29 am

My wifes a real bear when the alarm goes off in the morning,only thing that will stop her is if I beign my honeydo list

slimster · Post by **slimster** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:15 pm

El Chivo wrote:
some guy (in an inuit village, as I recall) killed a Polar bear that was trying to get into his house with an AR in .223.
Well if the bears are carrying AR's now we're all sunk.

That might be the least of our worries.

Met a girl who was a cook on a survey crew in the Brooks Range. She killed a bear with a .22 rifle that came in the tent after her.

Good thing that one came in the tent after her, as it helped her, but what if it had of been one of those "EVIL GUNS" we keep hearing about? It might have helped the bear!

...P.S. ...Great thread! I'm enjoying it .

silverbuzzard · Post by **silverbuzzard** » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:43 pm

Time for another Montana huntin story.
Lived there in 80s. My pardner and I hunted the Swan Valley [ couple miles from Bob Marshall Wilderness Area]
Had a tow camper but a good sized fanny burp woulda blown the walls out. Every morning I would cook bacon and eggs and my pard would gobble em up. He didn't know I would open the door and fling the bacon grease onto the bushes in camp.I wanted to see some bears ! oh boy , it worked ! bushes were shakin all night but we was too scared to see whether it was bears or chipmonks. After the third morning my pard almost stepped in bear scat so big you coulda covered a manhole with it.He drew down on me back at camp so I wisely ceased all such attempts at wildlife viewing.