bear protection

a357lever · Post by **a357lever** » Fri May 29, 2009 5:01 pm

I see it all over the net, what gun is enough for {bear protecion} ie: a charging bear,45-70, 338 wm,458wm, Browning m2?. Most say a 357mag is not enough, even in a carbine ,ok but.... Well i must side with the late Col. jeff Cooper who said the only shot you will have is to "brain him" I have a 45-70 and a rossi 357 m92 I feel perfectly fine with 180 cast core in alaska . Like Cooper says is a 30-06 a good elephant gun? ....no, will a 30-06 kill an elephant? yes between the eyes. I think knowledge, practice and calm play a bigger role than caliber. But I must say 357.is probably 357 mag is at the lower limit. just saying......

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Fri May 29, 2009 5:57 pm

The 357 have been known to lack the balls to penetrate a bear's skull. Which will leave you dead with your 357 in hand. Use enough gun. If you try to cheat with dangerous game, you can die even if the beast is wounded and eventually does die.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:08 pm

I've got to side with Bear on this one. Can you kill a brownie with a 22LR, yes, do you want to when it's charging you and you've got one shot, not me. Plus, as said, if you do get some lead in there, does it mean it isn't going to kill you before it dies. I want it DRT, or darn close to it.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:19 pm

Pretty much you need to start with a caliber beginning with a 4. And with the exception of a heavily loaded .45 Colt, it should end with the word magnum. Will it be enough, maybe, maybe not. But, I'd hate to get ate for lack of trying. Around my area, you probably would have more trouble with coyotes and cougars, but bears are getting a few every year. I'll carry a bit more weight, if it puts a bigger hole in things with teeth and claws.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:20 pm

Why skimp? Use a big caliber belted magnum. It is the extra insurance you'll need, and then, even if you just wing 'em the high velocity impact will cause so much shock that it'll kill 'em dead - double dead.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:25 pm

Big bears sometimes don't die when properly hit with the biggest calibers.... On a smaller blacky I would use a hot .357 load with 180 hardcast like are loaded in the Federal CastCore loads.....better not miss, though

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:48 pm

Out of a levergun, it's acceptable. A 180 hardcast will easily penetrate a bear's skull if you aim in the proper place. It's not going to bounce off or fail to penetrate. These myths come from people who have shot the hump of muscle and skin on top of the bear's cranium thinking *THAT* is the brain. The actual brain lies buried deep in the skull, towards the center of the head.

I'd rather have a .357 levergun than any handgun. I'm not accurate enough with the short guns.

a357lever · Post by **a357lever** » Fri May 29, 2009 7:02 pm

I must agree with everyone I will bring the 45-70 xlr to alaska but i still will bring my sw m28 6" with 180 gr. the darn xlr is a heavy rifle. But buffalo bore 430 cast core are much better pills. better safe than sorry

ps in 1964 a rancher in wyoming killed a then record grizz with a 30-30 carbine w/ rem 150gr the bear chaged him while he was fixing a fence he had time for 1 shot the bear was at 10 yards he hit it between the eyes and blew its brains out of the back of its head. the bear came to rest 1foot from his foot. interesting story from field & steam years ago.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri May 29, 2009 7:46 pm

No bears around here, but if I had to be in bear country, unless some expert advised me otherwise, I'd want something VERY powerful with a VERY penetrating bullet.

If I were in a tree stand, in a really BIG tree, I might try to KILL a big mean bear with a .32-20 and a solid copper bullet (assuming I had lots of ammo or another backup gun).

On the other hand, if I were on the ground, I'd want something not only solid, but at least 350 mg, and at least 1,000 fps - preferably doubling at least one of those numbers.

As a total bear 'novice' - I'd view my handgun MINIMUM as .44 Mag with carefully selected bullet, and if I really anticipated a close encounter with a bear, I'd prefer a rifle - or at least a carbine, in .444 Marlin, .45-70, .7mm Mag (with specific bullets), or similar power level. If I had to limit to a handgun for bear defense, I think those .460 S&W's, .500 S&W's, and the .475 and .500 Linebaughs would be the ones I'd choose from.

Those of you who have actually lived among, and shot, bears of ill-intention, feel free to chime in if you think a less powerful cartridge would be just as good...

OJ · Post by OJ » Fri May 29, 2009 11:32 pm

Bears need protection

thornblom · Post by **thornblom** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:33 am

The best bear protection fire arm would be the same rifle or revolver that you would use if you were hunting bear. Stopping a bear in the off season requires no less ft/lbs of energy than stopping a bear when the season is open. Your weapon of choice needs to be in your hands, on your shoulder or on your hip and no place else. When you need it, you are going to need it quick. It needs to fast to get into action, hit really hard, capable of 3 to 5 fast shots, and you need to be competant enough with it to make it all happen in as short a time period as possible.

When you go into the wilds of Canada or Alaska or even in the lower 48 where the grizz roams,
if you start a fight with one, you sure as hell better be capable of ending the fight in your favor. 99 times out of 100, there will be no second chance. That charging grizz or brown bear, if not stopped quickly and decisively, is not just going to kill you, he or she will probably eat you also. You need a real gun. I have talked with bear guides in Alaska and their consinses is if you carry a .44 mag, it is only good enough to kill yourself with so the bear doesn't do it. How many bear guides have you seen carrying a .357 (rifle or pistol) on a bear hunt for backup? None. They carry what they know to work. You should too.

Just my opinion.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: If you cut corners on this gun you may well die.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:23 am

When I got home last night I just yelled at the bear at the bird feeder . He just looked at me and kept eating. So I got the shotgun and a couple rounds in the air and he left. Of course the bird feeder is all bent to heck. And my wife was pee'd off because her turkey gun was in the gunsafe and she didn't have the combination.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:38 am

I've only killed a couple black bears so far. One was with a 338 Win Mag, the other a 45-70. One was 210 yards, the other was 8 yards. Both dropped in their tracks, so I would be comfortable with either one of those rifles for protecting myself. Most likely my first choice would be the 45-70 for ease of handling in the Guide Gun form.

mod71alaska · Post by **mod71alaska** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:00 am

I hate this discussion every time it comes up. Shoot a Big Bear between the eyes? So many arm chair experts who don't know the anatomy of a bears head, or diddly squat about bears for that matter. A .357 or any pistol caliber is the caliber of choice? Double, nay, triple balderdash!!! Come on guys. You just do what Davey C. did...show your pearly whites and grin and bear it!

gimdandy · Post by **gimdandy** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:50 am

Thornblom said it all and very well .

gimdandy · Post by **gimdandy** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:52 am

what mod 71 said if you're lookin is very true. at the wrong angle between the eyes is below the brain

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:58 am

My brother lived in Alaska and worked the slope for years. They even had guys go missing from camp only to be found later killed and eaten by brownies. One of the guys he worked with guided brown bear hunts and one thing he told my brother was that just about no matter what you hit that brownie with he was going to get up at least once. They are tough, strong and big critters. Able to kill a man with one swat. I wouldn't go into brown/griz country without my FA in 454 on my hip and a big rifle. The rifle probably wouldn't do me much good on a spooked bear, but hopefully the FA would be fast into action. Plus, the FA would be on my hip at all times. I've said this before, if you're only packing a rifle you'll set it down some time to do something and next thing you'll know is the bear is sitting on your rifle. You're screwed. A revolver on your hip would generally always be available.

OJ · Post by OJ » Sat May 30, 2009 11:05 am

Back in the 1930s, we spent the month of July in Yellowstone Park - my dad was an avid fly fisherman. Every evening, we had lots of bears come into campgrounds to raid garbage cans (later changed to "bear-proof kind"}. At that time, the only injuries came from people doing something they they shouldn't and we co-existed in peace, so to speak.

We were all camped in tents then - RVs not being in much supply during the depression. Any bear that be became any problem was "relocated" once and, if it came back, permanently "relocated" with ranger's 30-06. Grizzlies were rare and, if they came into camp got the 30-06 "relocation" immediately.

The standard joke then was, if chased by a bear, climb a tree - if it followed you up the tree, it was not a grizzly because grizzlies can't climb trees.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat May 30, 2009 11:07 am

Well, if you want to make a brain shot between the eyes on a big bear, what you do is:

Mentally draw a line from the left ear to the right eye and mentally draw another line from the right ear to the left eye and where the two lines intersect (Make an X), that is where to shoot in order to make a brain shot.

Of course by the time you make all those mental calculations and determine where "X" is, the bear will have killed you. But as you're taking your last breath, at least you'll know where you shoud have shot the bear.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:12 pm

Modoc ED wrote:Well, if you want to make a brain shot between the eyes on a big bear, what you do is:

Mentally draw a line from the left ear to the right eye and mentally draw another line from the right ear to the left eye and where the two lines intersect (Make an X), that is where to shoot in order to make a brain shot.

Of course by the time you make all those mental calculations and determine where "X" is, the bear will have killed you. But as you're taking your last breath, at least you'll know where you shoud have shot the bear.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Sat May 30, 2009 12:23 pm

The short guns are overrated as bear protection. Unless you can bullseye a running squirrel at 25 yards with your hand cannon, it's not going to help much against the big bruins. Rule No. 1 in my book, based on what I've seen of these beasts--BRING A RIFLE OR A SLUG GUN. It almost doesn't matter what kind as long as it has sufficient close-range power and can penetrate well. A .30-30 with the right bullet will absolutely work. So will a 20 ga with Brenneke hardcasts. Of course I'd prefer a .45-70 or a 12 ga, but that's not always possible. Whatever you carry, you have to be able to deploy very quickly and you MUST be very accurate with it with no tendency to flinch or fear the noise. Most people simply do not have that level of expertise with a revolver. I know I don't.

I carry a rifle either in a special front-slung quick release sling I developed or in a backpack scabbard.

a357lever · Post by **a357lever** » Sat May 30, 2009 1:47 pm

My problem is we are going fishin and nobody else has anything close to big enough one guy has a 20ga turkey gun he is bringing w/slugs and the other a .243. Sorry this bothers some, the "bear question" has been beat to death and i wish my xlr was shorter but its stainless and its a hammer. My m92 is so light and handy oh well i guess 180gr 1550fpe just don't cut it, just wondering what other shot you could take if a brownie is charging. The camp has alot of hungry beasts around i will sling it properly, and what bothers me if you shot a bear in a "false charge" u can get charged

in court!, so they tell me it had better be close.

Anyway it will buffalo bore 430grcg 2000fps+ at almost 3900ftpe at muzzle. i'll use my 357 pistol for blackflies and plinking. my borther worked on the pipeline and they all uaed blackhawks in .41m or 44m i always thought the 41 was light.
thanks for the input

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat May 30, 2009 1:59 pm

If the problem is that you don't have anything big enough, just hit the local pawn shops and find a cheap used Remington 870 Express and load it up with slugs.

a357lever · Post by **a357lever** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:24 pm

I have the 45-70 marlin xlr its just big and heavy it will more than do the job. I have a fn slp 12ga but i think a 45-70 is just the best choice from my collection. i was just trying to be lazy with something light and small like my rossi m92 357 but i think the posts agree its to light.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat May 30, 2009 2:51 pm

A guy I know here went on a guided bear hunt a few years ago. The back up gun the guide carried was an H&R 12 ga with slugs. He had cut the barrel to about 20" and carried it everywhere he went.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat May 30, 2009 3:26 pm

I lived among bears in Alaska for over thirty years. Never had to kill one. Know folks who did.

Well, if you want to make a brain shot between the eyes on a big bear, what you do is:

Mentally draw a line from the left ear to the right eye and mentally draw another line from the right ear to the left eye and where the two lines intersect (Make an X), that is where to shoot in order to make a brain shot.

Of course by the time you make all those mental calculations and determine where "X" is, the bear will have killed you. But as you're taking your last breath, at least you'll know where you shoud have shot the bear.

This stuff always sounds cute, but it doesn't have any actual field experience associated with it.

I know of 2 cases where a charging brown bear was stopped by a .44 mag to their brain from a hand gun. I know of cases where people have fought off bears and won. And I know someone who was disarmed by the bear and eaten. I know two people who killed brown bears with .270s, and one native guy who killed more than 50 with a 30-06.

My current bear protection strategy is my 45/70/525 guide gun as primary and my redhawk .44 mag with 405g cast bullets as back up. I used to hunt with SA Rugers but quit that when I realized that if one of my arms was in the bear's jaws I might not be able to cycle a SA with the other one. I carry the double action in a Simply Rugged holster in the cross draw position so I can retrieve it with either hand.

This is just one guy's experience of half a lifetime living cheek by jowel with the second most useless animal on the planet. It's all anecdotal, but it beats the conventional "wisdom" by a good amount.

I consider the .357 to be inadequate, but if forced to use one I'd carry my 185g hard cast load and pray I never needed it as a bear stopper.

Regards,

Grizz

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Sat May 30, 2009 3:35 pm

Where did you say you were fishing? Are you here in AK? If so I'd suggest cruising the swap & sell for a Mossy or Rem. shotgun and pick up some brenneke magnums. These days it's much easier to find the shotgun now than the proper slugs, but Mnt. View Sports had some mid-week when I was last there. Don't try to use soft lead Foster slugs. The .357 Lever will do in a pinch, but you might as well have a little more power. More importantly, that lever is a nice keeper and is going to get all banged up and wet on a fishing trip in these parts. I remember after one particularly active summer of fishing the big Su area, my Mossy 500 had half a cup of sand and dust in the action. It still functioned, but that sort of thing is hard on guns. A used pump action shotgun isn't exactly an heirloom. And it's about a pound and a half or more lighter than the full size 1895 Marlin.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:02 pm

I fished SE for most of my adult life. Living in WA now but still have a home in Alaska for when I can't stand here any more.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:04 pm

Ed Stevens who runs an Alaskan guide service and writes an occasional article for Successful Hunter and Rifle toutes the 45/70 Guide Gun as a back up as well as an old mauser in 375 H&H and a Win 95 in 375 Hawk.

Basically, a large caliber, good sd solid or premium bullet like Barnes TSX at medium speeds.

Grizz above says the same.

I'll go with their picks personally.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:40 pm

Cosmoline wrote:The short guns are overrated as bear protection. Unless you can bullseye a running squirrel at 25 yards with your hand cannon, it's not going to help much against the big bruins. Rule No. 1 in my book, based on what I've seen of these beasts--BRING A RIFLE OR A SLUG GUN. It almost doesn't matter what kind as long as it has sufficient close-range power and can penetrate well. A .30-30 with the right bullet will absolutely work. So will a 20 ga with Brenneke hardcasts. Of course I'd prefer a .45-70 or a 12 ga, but that's not always possible. Whatever you carry, you have to be able to deploy very quickly and you MUST be very accurate with it with no tendency to flinch or fear the noise. Most people simply do not have that level of expertise with a revolver. I know I don't.

I carry a rifle either in a special front-slung quick release sling I developed or in a backpack scabbard.

Rifle or slug gun is always preferrable. But, there are way too many times during the day when you won't have you rifle slung much less in your hands. Carry a rifle yes, but also wear a belt gun. I'd sure hate to get ate a couple of feet from my rifle with nothing but a sharp knife to fight against teeth and claws.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat May 30, 2009 5:37 pm

If I went into bear country, to hunt, or to fish, or to live, it would be my 45-70 original 1886 rifle and my .475 Linebaugh Freedom Arms in my cross draw holster. Always with me. I'm actually considering selling up and heading that way and if I do, those two are definately top of the list.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:05 pm

jeepnik wrote:Rifle or slug gun is always preferrable. But, there are way too many times during the day when you won't have you rifle slung much less in your hands. Carry a rifle yes, but also wear a belt gun. I'd sure hate to get ate a couple of feet from my rifle with nothing but a sharp knife to fight against teeth and claws.

That's certainly the belt and suspenders approach. But in my experience it gets way too cumbersome, esp. when you add fishing and/or camping gear on top of everything else. I find myself setting the shotgun down and forgetting about it while I'm lost in the hypnotic trance of the river. The key for me lies in making sure the long gun is packable and always on me. That's hard to do with traditional slings, which is why I favor the backpack scabbard or this:

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:13 pm

Some dumb homeowner in Yachats (Oregon) is going to prison for feeding bears in her back yard. In our part of the country a fed bear is a dead bear, no relocating. I was at a homeowner's show last year and I asked the F&G person manning a booth about this. I asked him what, if any, is a penalty if a homeowner shot one on his propery (I live in town). He had no problem with it. Nice to know.
In Kalifornia they would arrest you, take your weapon, and first born, fine you, imprison you, and give you community service. Your picture would be on the front page of the local rag and you would be shunned for life. And your weapon would go to the sheriff or one of his friends.

a357lever · Post by **a357lever** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:56 pm

ok i'm taking my 45-70 24" XLR and i am going to get a rifled slug barrel for the mossy and so we will have two people with long guns {man this is getting expensive!} i will also have my useless SW n frame 6" 357 with 180 gr 1425fps 780+fpe, well if the one in 10,000 encounter i will at least have a small chance end of story thanks all.

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:16 pm

thornblom wrote:The best bear protection fire arm would be the same rifle or revolver that you would use if you were hunting bear. Stopping a bear in the off season requires no less ft/lbs of energy than stopping a bear when the season is open. Your weapon of choice needs to be in your hands, on your shoulder or on your hip and no place else. When you need it, you are going to need it quick. It needs to fast to get into action, hit really hard, capable of 3 to 5 fast shots, and you need to be competant enough with it to make it all happen in as short a time period as possible.

When you go into the wilds of Canada or Alaska or even in the lower 48 where the grizz roams,
if you start a fight with one, you sure as hell better be capable of ending the fight in your favor. 99 times out of 100, there will be no second chance. That charging grizz or brown bear, if not stopped quickly and decisively, is not just going to kill you, he or she will probably eat you also. You need a real gun. I have talked with bear guides in Alaska and their consinses is if you carry a .44 mag, it is only good enough to kill yourself with so the bear doesn't do it. How many bear guides have you seen carrying a .357 (rifle or pistol) on a bear hunt for backup? None. They carry what they know to work. You should too.

Just my opinion.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: If you cut corners on this gun you may well die.

You obviously have never seen just how fast bears can move. Try standing next to a road with cars going past at 30 to 35 mph. Now when the car is 50 feet away, have a buddy say "Go" and you try to get you gun out and get off two shots. I will bet you will be hard pressed to do so.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:26 pm

That's interesting about the slings. NOTHING is more useless than a slung gun. Now if you have a tactical sling in a tactical situation, that's one thing. But in the bear's lair the only thing tactical is the bear.

I took the sling studs off of my GS so I could reduce the chance of getting jumped faster than I can get the gun off of me.

I know, I know how fast you can do it at home in front of the mirror. It's not the same thing as slipping down the wet grassy bank towards the bear cubs. The rest of the time the sling is busily catching on every branch, stick, and rock you pass by, and clicking the swivels, and whatever other mischief it can dream up.

If I absolutely have to tie the gun onto me I can, but only if I absolutely have to. It hasn't come to that yet.

I can hear the storm of reasons why slings are so necessary, but I've given them up. You'all might think about it.

Grizz

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:16 am

Dont go undergunned,its your life were talking about.
If it was me, it would be your 45-70 XLR, a .475 Freedom arms handgun,but (as a minimum handgun the 454 casull )and also what several months back Field & Sream did actual tests on and said was the most effective thing to have.(ya,ok but would still want some big bore guns)Only weighs 7ozs,cost $40 (UDAP #12 HP Bear Spray with Hip Holster)
Also screw that false charge law.Dont get hung up on that or you will wait too much and your dead.If the bear is closing on you fast
and does not seem to slow say at 60yards.Its a dead bear with your XLR.If you "have the time",that bear spray stuff might be ok but I dont know if I would trust it? A couple of months ago a couple guys were brown bear hunting in Alaska(it was on the outdoor tv channel) and there was a mother brown bear and two cubs that came out in the open about a 150 yards away.She looked right at them and charged.The guide shot that bear(I kinda thought prematurely)about 85-100 yards.
He said that the mother bears very rarely false charge.They Dont bluff.Keep that in mind!!
Also,pratice your sprinting so you can out run you Pals

They say for a short distance a black bear can run up to 30mph,but because of their long gated stride a brown bear can run up to 40mph
and they reach that top speed almost instantly.
To give you a perspective of this type speed go to a quater horse race, stand 40-50 yards from the gate start line and when the gate opens see how much time you have till they reach you.(hardly any)

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sun May 31, 2009 8:34 am

Gun Smith said:

In Kalifornia they would arrest you, take your weapon, and first born, fine you, imprison you, and give you community service. Your picture would be on the front page of the local rag and you would be shunned for life. And your weapon would go to the sheriff or one of his friends.

That's not necessarily true. If the bear were on your property menacing yourself or others and you killed it on your property, DF&G would issue you a depradation permit. Same for mountail lions.

thornblom · Post by **thornblom** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:18 am

Hey Bear 45/70,

Yes sir, I do know how fast bears can move. I used to work with bear guides that used hounds and horses in the morning and they hunted over bait in the afternoons. Bears can lead a horseman and the hounds on a great chase. I have observed a few of those bears when the hounds got close enough to bay them up. They are incredibly fast. And I have killed 2 bears (blackies) so I know that the grizz can be faster.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:34 am

Gun Smith,
F&G are not the only ones you have to deal with.
I you live in a town,you will be charged with discharging a firearm within city limits.(mandatory charge/but probably not a conviction)
this will be issued by the town police,they have to do this.
Also they will look into the bullet path(say you missed one time or penetrated the bear and bullet struck neighbors garage etc.)
Where their any minors present in close proxcemity when the firearm was discharged etc.
Granted,you might be cleared of all citaions(better than dead)
but you will be charged with these.These are laws beyond the F&G

I know this for a fact,a couple years ago a good friend of mine had this exact thing happen.(unless other states handle it differently than Pa)

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:38 am

madman4570 wrote: Also,pratice your sprinting so you can out run you Pals

That's right. A buddy that I used to hunt with in Idaho would always say, "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you!"

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:45 am

I agree with the 12 gauge shotgun option. I'd be highly likely to have the XLR handy, but 'handy' is a relative term for a gun that size. I think I'd be having some other gun as a 'primary' one.

You could get a shotgun that is small and lightweight - a breakopen or a pump with short stock. I wouldn't personally choose a 'pistol grip' shotgun because firing SLUGS out of them is very hard to do accurately, and I think I could get a regular shotgun to hit a target faster and more positively. The breakopen would be really light, but you'd only have one shot. Like someone else said though - if you miss with the first shot, it might be a moot point whether your gun holds more rounds.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:52 am

How a bout a double barrel Houda? Howda? or however you spell pistol like Old Ironsights made? Hang it around your neck and it's there when you need it.

If handguns are as useless as all you guys say they are, it's a one or two shot chance anyway, so why not make them two big chances?

Joe

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 9:53 am

Ya, I always wondered if that would be enough gun?
I always thought about my Ithaca deerslayer 18.5"
smoothbore loaded with 2-Brennekes or Dixies /2- 00 buck/1-tri ball ???
A cheaper mossberg would do the same thing!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:14 am

madman4570 wrote:Ya, I always wondered if that would be enough gun?
I always thought about my Ithaca deerslayer 18.5"
smoothbore loaded with 2-Brennekes/2- 00 buck/1-tri ball ???
A cheaper mossberg would do the same thing!

Lots of good ideas here. I'd suggest that a 525g bullet encountering brer bear at 1450 fps is way better stopping medicine than the Brennekes or the tri ball. There are shotgun loads that cover 45/70 terminal performance.

I also am gonna say this again: the .44 mag 405g load I'm using in my 5-1/2" redhawk is a much better emergency bear stopper than 454 factory loads.

1. The redhawk is double action. Much better tactically than single action. You don't see LE carrying single actions around. There's a logical reason for this that applies to bear encounters.
2. The 405g bullet departing at 945 fps penetrates douglas fir as well as my 45/70 does, that is, thru and thru. That means it will penetrate to the bear's CNS from any angle. It's not underpowered by any stretch. It will do this at 50 yards.
3. There is very low recoil with the big bullet, perceptibly more than .44 special, but noticeably less than say a box stock .44 240g jsp, the standard for the round.
4. It is not true, in this case, that the 454 has any advantages over the subsonic load, and it has the disadvantages that it's commonly shot from a single action five-shooter.

If someone in the PNW wants to do some comparison tests for the camera let's get together and satisfy our collective curiosity, your 454 with any load and my redhawk with the subsonic 405g bullet.

I don't mean to sound cranky about this, but it deserves some traction because it's a life and death matter when it matters.

Regards,

Grizz

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:20 am

I agree with Grizz, this is no place for emotionalism, a side by side documented comparison is in order.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:48 am

Grizz makes some good points!!!
But please do not tell me your 44 is going to out do a .454 or .475
linebaugh???????????I am not talking just 240gr factory loads either.
what factory load is your 405 grainer??
Lets compare apples to apples!
I own a 8.375" SS Raging Bull Double Action .454 revolver.
Sure,I will take take that challenge if you are so inclined

I have one box I loaded last week of 50, but only a couple of shots will do.
Mine will be 316gr Belt Mountain Punch bullets @ 1600fps
Also I have a box of "factory Loads" 360gr WLNGC loads @ 1450fps
that I also think would do!

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:08 am

I appreciate the double acting theoretical consideration but I believe shot placement, familiarization with the targets vitals and the pistol you are shooting are far more important than having a double acting pistol. I have a double acting smith in .44 and with randy garretts light bear stoppers, and my 475 with factory full loads in a freedom arms. I would take the 475 any day over the .44. I am sure that the 475 out pentrates with its 400 or 440 grain bullet, thats documented. I am also sure that I can shoot the 475 more accurately, just as fast, and the action, grip and sights are already becoming familiar and natural to me. Dont get me wrong, I would not feel undergunned with the .44 and in fact I bought the .44 just for that scenario, but the 475 IMHO, with twice the energy, and much more penetration, with a heavier and wider bullet just makes its case hands down. again, just MHO.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:21 am

But I want to say, Grizz that is one heck of a good load if your
44 with those 405 grainers penetrate that well.
I am just saying you could also shoot those kind of loads in the 454.

Now that .475 while on paper the .454 in especially factory loads might? might not? appear to have an edge over the .475 ? but,everyone I have ever talked to say that .475 linebaugh has almost a magical killing ability. That 425gr @1300fps out of that gun(and somehow that paticular bullet diameter coupled with that loading just Kills everything and kills anything!!!!!

If I had my choice(money no oblect) I would have the Model 83 Freedom Arms .475 period.That in the Freedom Arms crossdraw holster rig and maybe that big can of UDAP Bear spray.Heck leave the long gun home!!!Myself D/A verses S/A ,I really like the S/A best.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun May 31, 2009 11:32 am

I'd like to see the tests, but believe Linebaugh's already done a bazillion of them and the data's pretty much available.

I concede that a double action revolver is a good choice. Especially if your rolling on the ground with a bear on you. But, with a modicum of practice and we all agree no one should be walking around in a bear situation without familiarizing themselves with their weapon of choice, right? I believe a single action revolver is as fast as a double action as long as you've got two hands to operate it. The other advantage with a DA is the reload, but that isn't a part of this equation.

Bottom line to me is be aware of your surroundings, have enough gun for your situation, know how to use it and have it with you when you need it. And, to me that's a revolver, unless I'm hunting and have a rifle in my hands.