.44spl 240 grain XTP Expansion?

[JerryB]

Will the 240 grain XTP expand .the .44spl at about 700 to 730 fps.I loaded 25 of them today and now I am thinking that I should have got the 200 grain XTP.

[86er]

I did a ton of test on 44 Special and some are posted on the forum. The answer is "NO", the 240 XTP's and even the 200's had poor expansion. In fact, the front edge rolled over into the cavity a bit, inhibiting expansion even further. I had them going as much as 870 fps and the test were done with FBI protocol.

[Bear 45/70]

Why would you need an expanding bullet in a 44? Isn't a .432" hole big enough?

[Hobie]

I use cast in the .41 Mag, .44 Special, and .45 Colt. I do use the 240 gr. XTP in the .44 MAG but only because I will be using it across several platforms including rifle.

[JerryB]

I am wanting a CCW load to carry in a circumstance that if I had to use it a cast or over penetration would be dangerous to say the least. Yes the .429 is already a big hole but there are other things to consider. Not all shootings are out in the open with nothing behind the intended target. I have been carrying PMC 180 grain HP ammo.

[SFRanger7GP]

My two favorite bullets in the 44 special where I need expansion is the Speer 225 SJHP and the Hornady swaged 240 LSWC-HP. Give them a try at around 850 fps for what you are wanting.

[JerryB]

SFRanger7GP,Thanks I'll see if I can find one of those bullets and try them. I sure don't need over penetration.

[44shooter]

Hornady uses the 180 XTP in their 44 SPL ammo. Speer uses the 200 Gold Dot. Either of these are probably the way to go for expansion. If you want to stay with a heavier bullet the lead HP's mentioned above will work and you get 200 for about the same price as 100 jacketed.

[JohndeFresno]

From what I have seen, read, and experienced in a recent experiment, combined with what 86er's experiments revealed, I go for the Winchester Silvertip as an available component for large holes and limited penetration in a .44 urban defensive round - either for the magnum of the .44 special. If I have to defend my family, a three inch diameter hole would be okay by me.

That's if we are talking about handloads, not the all new serrated copper round that will be sold as loaded ammo by the Grizzly Cartridge Company. It looks like this bullet will outperform all others in this arena.

For a long time, Silvertip bullets dropped out of sight, but they are once again available as a component. At least they were until the huge run on firearms and ammunition these last two to three months.
See:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=14094
(especially the last page of the thread)

[Ray]

Deleted.

[JerryB]

Thanks for all the good help, I will probably just stay with the PMC 180 HP for now.

[O.S.O.K.]

You don't mention what gun you are using. But you can easily get over 1000 fps with a Speer 200 Grain Gold Dot bullet over 8.5 Grains of Unique and stay within the sammi spec of 15500 psi. CCI makes a Blazer load with this bullet that goes mid-900's too that's a very good defense load. These are safe in all good-condition 44 Special revolvers such as the old S&W revolvers, Colt SA clones, Taurus, etc.. The Charter Arms can handle more pressure if you wanted (but is not needed)
and revolvers such as Ruger's new 44 Specials, S&W 696 and the like can handle up to 25000 psi loads.

That 200 Grain Gold Dot bullet is made for the 44 Special and would be my first and foremost pick for defense.

[Modoc ED]

Why would you need an expanding bullet in a 44? Isn't a .432" hole big enough?

I've pretty much said the same thing here before Bear about not only the .44 caliber but the .45 caliber too. When you're shooting either the .44 or .45, my motto is, "just load up and shoot the bastard". No expansion necessary!!

[Modoc ED]

I did a ton of test on 44 Special and some are posted on the forum. The answer is "NO", the 240 XTP's and even the 200's had poor expansion. In fact, the front edge rolled over into the cavity a bit, inhibiting expansion even further. I had them going as much as 870 fps and the test were done with FBI protocol.

I don't think you can come out with an emphatic "NO" based only on your test. What medium did you use to fire the bullets into. Did you compare your results against Hornady's results?

Just my .02¢ but I don't necessarily consider the FBI protocol to be the "end all" authoritative test when it comes to firearms and bullet performance.

[JohndeFresno]

There used to be a website where some gun enthusiasts named Fortis ,Church/Winetraub, and Cumpston were mobbed together. Google "Miles Fortis". I think the url that worked had the ".us" suffix instead of the ".com". There, a gentleman named Mike Cumpston had some articles including one where he tested .44 special bullets in store bought swine and oxen flesh. If my memory is correct, the PMC load mentioned above did quite well.

Wow - where were you, Ray, when I was looking for a good low velocity .44 defense round in another thread?

That "Miles Fortis" website is the best that I have seen, so far, for real life test information on the various .44 Special / Magnum rounds, including the now somewhat rare Keith Hollowpoint cast bullet.

This photo, from that site, says a lot:


Except for the Cor-Bon round which fragmented, anyway - all of these mild loadings would allow for quick follow-up shots, are easier on the ears in an enclosed room (below that sonic boom velocity), and a lot less blinding night flash when one chooses the proper powder. I liked the accuracy of the Silvertip, so this validates my choice - Silvertip, it is.

[JerryB]

O.S.O.K.,my favorite load for my early 1980's Charter Arms Target Bulldog is a 240 grain cast with 6 grains of Unique, a very accurate load at 100 yards. But it will not do for a carry load in an enclosed building full of people if some nut came through the door shooting. I will check out the Gold Dot ammo, thanks.
Ed you may not care what is behind your target but I am, Like I said before, not all shootings can take place out in the wide open spaces.I believe 86er did the bullet testing on large animals on the game ranch.

[JerryB]

Ray and JohndeFresno, thank you a whole bunch this site is great.

[Tycer]

There's a lot of bone in two legged varmints chests. IME with 20 ea. .380 and 38 spec. premium jacketed hollow points in animal testing, the noses fold over and the bullets tumble when they don't strike bone squarely.

[JB]

We had trouble getting most jhp's to expand at 44 special velocities. It wasn't the most scientific test, but we fired a number of loadings into water filled jugs. The vast majority wouldn't expand until we got into 44 magnum levels.

[JohndeFresno]

There's a lot of bone in two legged varmints chests. IME with 20 ea. .380 and 38 spec. premium jacketed hollow points in animal testing, the noses fold over and the bullets tumble when they don't strike bone squarely.

I think that this brings us back to the double-tap or triple-tap paradigm, as taught by many if not most police agencies - two quick rounds to the chest, and one to the head if the bullets don't stop the aggression. That third aimed round works if the bullets fail, for some reason, or if the target is wearing body armor. The first two will slow down the aggressor for a second or two while you take careful aim.

Since this is a training standard, the officer and rangemaster can both testify that this is standard police procedure to preclude a jury from finding the officer's actions as overly aggressive or irresponsible in a civil suit.

For home defense purposes, I subscribe to that method, and have taught my wife to shoot in this manner. The bad guys drop like flies or fly backwards ten feet from one hit of any caliber in the movies, but like almost anything that comes out of Hollywood, that is clearly not reality.

[Tycer]

The Mozambique.
As many reports as we have on "suspect was shot X number of times and will be taken to jail upon recovery", the Mozambiqe could stand to be taught a little more.

[Ray]

Deleted.

[AJMD429]

These are only 222 grain, but look like they open up a bit at 825 fps out of a 2-1/2" 44 Special...

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =44+petals

[JerryB]

Last nite we left early for church and stopped at a friend's house. I had six water jugs set up infront of his wood pile. I fired one round and it went through the six jugs and bounced of a piece of dry oak and fell to the ground. As you can see there was not much in the line off expansion. My load was 6.1 grains of Unique under the 240 grain XTP HP at about 730 fps.

[JohndeFresno]

...As you can see there was not much in the line off expansion. My load was 6.1 grains of Unique under the 240 grain XTP HP at about 730 fps....

The Hornady XTP penetrates well, but your muzzle velocity was too slow for that round to expand. Here is the latest Hornady XTP expansion chart - the expansion for a 240 gr. XTP starts at around 900 fps.


The 240 grain .44 Caliber XTP is a good game round, but you have to push it too fast to get it to expand for it to be a viable self-defense round - it would penetrate way beyond your target at the usual combat distances.

[JerryB]

John thanks for the chart, it will be put to good use. Over penetration is the reason I'm looking for a new load,thanks for the help.

[Travis Morgan]

Why would you need an expanding bullet in a 44? Isn't a .432" hole big enough?

NOPE.

[Travis Morgan]

Last nite we left early for church and stopped at a friend's house. I had six water jugs set up infront of his wood pile. I fired one round and it went through the six jugs and bounced of a piece of dry oak and fell to the ground. As you can see there was not much in the line off expansion. My load was 6.1 grains of Unique under the 240 grain XTP HP at about 730 fps.

This falls in line with my own experiences with XTP's; high retained weight, good penetration, but little expansion. IMHO, they're good for a hunting load, but not so much for self/home defence. I need to get more of the Hornady soft hollow point XTP's in .451 and .452 for further testing, so I don't deplete the few I have hoarded.

[Bear 45/70]

Why would you need an expanding bullet in a 44? Isn't a .432" hole big enough?

NOPE.

The deer I shot with my Redhawk in 41 Magnum was DRT, with a lousy little 210 grain lead hard cast.

[Travis Morgan]

Last winter, some guy in Alaska killed a polar bear with his AR-15 when it tried to get in his house. A .223 still isn't big enough for Polar Bears. Suck it.

[O.S.O.K.]

There used to be a website where some gun enthusiasts named Fortis ,Church/Winetraub, and Cumpston were mobbed together. Google "Miles Fortis". I think the url that worked had the ".us" suffix instead of the ".com". There, a gentleman named Mike Cumpston had some articles including one where he tested .44 special bullets in store bought swine and oxen flesh. If my memory is correct, the PMC load mentioned above did quite well.

Wow - where were you, Ray, when I was looking for a good low velocity .44 defense round in another thread?

That "Miles Fortis" website is the best that I have seen, so far, for real life test information on the various .44 Special / Magnum rounds, including the now somewhat rare Keith Hollowpoint cast bullet.

This photo, from that site, says a lot:


Except for the Cor-Bon round which fragmented, anyway - all of these mild loadings would allow for quick follow-up shots, are easier on the ears in an enclosed room (below that sonic boom velocity), and a lot less blinding night flash when one chooses the proper powder. I liked the accuracy of the Silvertip, so this validates my choice - Silvertip, it is.

Notice the Speer Gold Dots.....they are perfect for defensive, limited penetration applications. I would still push them to 950 or so - as they will work even better at that muzzle velocity - this is no trick with 200 grain bullets.