Does a .45 Cal. Bullet Really *Need* To Expand On N Am. Game

[Cosmoline]

I'm running into a distinct shortage of bullets and brass for my .450 Marlin. The only thing I have a ton of are 350 grain hardcast FN bullets from Oregon Trail. Loading these up got me wondering, with a bullet .458" diameter to start with, and a flat nose, do you really need to use expanding bullets? Obviously the lead will slow me down a bit from the .450's maximum velocities. But how much is that going to matter inside of 100 yards? For moose, black bear, and animals on down, are the FN cast leads going to work fine? Is there a threshhold energy level I need to load for? I've never hunted with big hardcasts, just shot targets.

[Blaine]

No I can't imagine anything withstanding a good, solid hit with what you are loading. Maybe not the big bears.

[J Miller]

Cosmoline,

If you will think back through the history of hunting firearms and cartridges in this country you'll realize that your 450 with that hard cast 350gr bullet will take anything that walks on this continent, including the big bears.

Every thing that walks has been taken and taken cleanly with the piddly small 30-30 or smaller. I'd load them up to a good strong load, and never worry about it.

JMHO, as I've never swallowed the uber heavy high velocity bullet spam.

Joe

[Modoc ED]

Well, look at the solids that are used in that caliber. They don't expand and pretty near (do) kill anything they're used on. Same goes for the .444 Marlin and other calibers. Look at the Belt Mountain solids that are used in the .44 Magnum. No expansion. Kill everything they touch.

[madman4570]

Big bullets, make big holes without need of expansion.
Right on!!!!!!!!!! Will do the job!!
Gotta love Big Bores.

[kimwcook]

That's why I love big bores.

[Old Ironsights]

My .357 WFNs don't expand... and kill deer DRT really well...

[Cosmoline]

That's good to know.

BTW, have other people been noticing that everything is running out? I can't get .450 brass anywhere including Midway. Local powder supply is kaput. The reloading shelves remind me of a Soviet supermarket. The local ads are full of requests for basic supplies like primers. I've never seen anything like this, even in Alaska.

[tman]

that's the reason that the .444, 450 marlin were chambered in lever actions. to put a 300 grain bullet in the boiler room of a GREAT BEAR and knock him flat without worrying about expansion.

[Old Time Hunter]

That .458 diameter is big enough on its own, as others have said. Just might slow it down some though. Yes there is a shortage of bullets, brass, primers, and powder.

By the way, how's the job hunt going?

[Old Savage]

Preexpanded at the factory.

[stretch]

Even on the big African stuff, "solids" are recommended in the big calibers
for stuff like elephant, hippo, and buff. Penetration is more important than
expansion, methinks. Not to worry Cosmo; a good, solid hit in the vitals with a
.458 300 gr. bullet will discourage most anything!

[Cosmoline]

That .458 diameter is big enough on its own, as others have said. Just might slow it down some though. Yes there is a shortage of bullets, brass, primers, and powder.

By the way, how's the job hunt going?

Who's job hunt?

[Don McDowell]

Expansion certainly helps. A good meplat and a sharp driving band on the bullet will aid the wound channel quite a bit.
I wouldn't worry about having to slow the 450 down. The 45-75 winchester spit a 350 gr flatnosed bullet at about 1400 fps, and was highly thought of back in its day. Speed isn't always required.

[SmokeEater2]

I've had good luck with cast boolits over a dose of black in my Sharps. That big ol' flat fronted slug will kill hawgs graveyard dead with little if any expansion when they are punched thru the boiler room. I have no idea how fast they are moving but I'm sure it's nowhere near magnum velocity.

[piller]

A bad hit with a .458 solid lead bullet will take a while to kill a tough animal as I sadly found out about a month ago. A good hit would probably work in one shot. I need to find time for more practice.

[Bear 45/70]

A bad hit with a .458 solid lead bullet will take a while to kill a tough animal as I sadly found out about a month ago. A good hit would probably work in one shot. I need to find time for more practice.

A bad hit with any caliber, except with an exploding bullet, will general have the same outcome.

[Bogie35]

Preexpanded at the factory.

bogie

[Bogie35]

A big hard bullet will leave a big deep hole, even at modest velocities. Velocity becomes much more of a factor with smaller-diameter expanding bullets.

Heck, even a 35 caliber hole is "big" when you're talking about perforating an animal's vitals.

bogie

[Cosmoline]

To be specific, the load I'm working up will throw the 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet at a rather sedate speed of 1500 FPS, generating only about 1750 ft. lbs. at the muzzle. That's a big drop down from what this rifle is capable of with jacketed rounds. Assuming a lower right quadrant hit inside 100 yards, do you think that's enough to anchor a black bear or should I wait for Midway's supply of Hornady FP's to get back in stock?

[Don McDowell]

If a 300 gr from a 454 casull doing 1600 is good for everything from mice to mastedons, I see no reason why a 350 at 1500 from a 45 cal rifle isn't just as good.
405 gr from a 45-70 doing 1400 has claimed everything on this continent and a few others.

[Mike Rintoul]

I shoot a lot of stuff with cast bullets. Most are .50 diameter. With that being said, there are a lot of reasons to choose a controlled expanding bullet for bear hunting. Read this article for more:
http://www.gunblast.com/JoeRiekers-BearHunting.htm

I recall Joe and Ricky telling me about Piller's oryx, hit with a 350 gr cast bullet out of a 45-70. I was told the hit was literally 1/2 in from cutting vitals. The exit wound was smaller than caliber diameter and clogged up with a piece of sinew, greatly slowing blood loss. I was not there. Maybe Piller can chime in if anyone wants more details. When you consider that a Kodiak bullet of the same weight will typically expand to .80" or a 405 gr to 1.0" the small difference in diameter could be deadly. We can all agree that if the cast bullet was on its mark in the first place it would do the job more than sufficiently. However, with the cost and effort of some hunts you may want to stack the odds in your favor by the slight edge that may be possible with a good expanding bullet.

[2ndovc]

Thanks for the link. Good reading.

I spent an afternoon with Joe a couple summers ago bs'ing about bullets and
hunting, etc. Really changed my opinions on bullets and performance on large game animals.

I have yet to take on anything larger than a deer with a hardcast bullet. That deer never took a step after it was hit. Shot went through the lungs, my shot was farther back that I had planned and she took quite some time to bleed out even with a .458 hole on either side.
It's my belief is had I used the 350 Gr. Hornady FP that I also had along the bullet would have expanded and the doe would have bled much more quickly. I finally borrowd Joe's .40S&W and put her down. Couldn't stand wathcing her struggle.

Anyway, I'm a firm believer in matching the bullets to the game. However sometimes you have to use what you got!

jb

[Bogie35]

To be specific, the load I'm working up will throw the 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet at a rather sedate speed of 1500 FPS, generating only about 1750 ft. lbs. at the muzzle.

Energy is such a misleading factor in killing power that I pay no attention to it at all. A 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet that leaves the muzzle at 1500 fps has enormous killing power. If placed into the vitals, it will kill anything that has ever walked on this continent.

Bogie

[Don McDowell]

To be specific, the load I'm working up will throw the 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet at a rather sedate speed of 1500 FPS, generating only about 1750 ft. lbs. at the muzzle.

Energy is such a misleading factor in killing power that I pay no attention to it at all. A 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet that leaves the muzzle at 1500 fps has enormous killing power. If placed into the vitals, it will kill anything that has ever walked on this continent.

Bogie

And probably 7 or 8 other continents , truth be told.

[Modoc ED]

Here's some factory loaded Hornady .450 Marlin that is AVAILABLE in case you want some.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=122888

MidwayUSA also have a ton of .458 Jacketed bullets available right now too. No brass but LOTS of bullets.

[Timothy]

Why are you stopping at 1500fps? I run hardcast 405's in 45-70 up to 1700-1800fps.

[Bear 45/70]

To be specific, the load I'm working up will throw the 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet at a rather sedate speed of 1500 FPS, generating only about 1750 ft. lbs. at the muzzle.

Energy is such a misleading factor in killing power that I pay no attention to it at all. A 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet that leaves the muzzle at 1500 fps has enormous killing power. If placed into the vitals, it will kill anything that has ever walked on this continent.

Bogie

And probably 7 or 8 other continents , truth be told.

That would be very true. Randy Garrett's 45/70 ammo has taken the Big Six in Africa from a Guide Gun no less.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/reviews2.asp

[Cosmoline]

Here's some factory loaded Hornady .450 Marlin that is AVAILABLE in case you want some.

Sadly it's not available to me thanks to Alaska's neighbor the Soviet Kanukistan Republics. I could get into the fact that the Alaska Highway was built with US labor on the understanding that Americans and their goods would have free, unfettered access through Canada to Alaska, but I won't. As it stands now the only way to get loaded ammo, primers or anything else that goes "boom" up here is to have it put on a barge in Seattle.

[Blaine]

To be specific, the load I'm working up will throw the 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet at a rather sedate speed of 1500 FPS, generating only about 1750 ft. lbs. at the muzzle.

Energy is such a misleading factor in killing power that I pay no attention to it at all. A 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet that leaves the muzzle at 1500 fps has enormous killing power. If placed into the vitals, it will kill anything that has ever walked on this continent.

Bogie

And probably 7 or 8 other continents , truth be told.

That would be very true. Randy Garrett's 45/70 ammo has taken the Big Six in Africa from a Guide Gun no less.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/reviews2.asp

Garrett's loads used on DG are NOT 350 grain light weights

[Modoc ED]

Here's some factory loaded Hornady .450 Marlin that is AVAILABLE in case you want some.

Sadly it's not available to me thanks to Alaska's neighbor the Soviet Kanukistan Republics. I could get into the fact that the Alaska Highway was built with US labor on the understanding that Americans and their goods would have free, unfettered access through Canada to Alaska, but I won't. As it stands now the only way to get loaded ammo, primers or anything else that goes "boom" up here is to have it put on a barge in Seattle.

Order it 3rd Day Air.

[jd45]

What do you mean, "The lead will slow me down from the 450s max velocities"????? Do you not know the lead has a LOWER co-efficient of friction than a copper-jacketed soft or hollow point? How in the world would the HC lead bullets slow you down from the max velocities??? Especially with a gas-check. You use the same powder charge & you're gonna get HIGHER velocities!!! jd45

[AJMD429]

Preexpanded at the factory.

Sounds like a good marketing slogan for the Linebaugh family of cartridges...

[Bear 45/70]

I always say the "Velocity goes away, while MASS does not." Big heavy bullets penetrate deep at moderate or even slow velocities, 1000 to 1600 fps. On deer I've never had one of my 405s leaving the muzzle of my 1895SS at 1600 fps stop in and animal. everyone has been a pass through. I also do not agree with the expanding bullet crowd.

[Cosmoline]

Order it 3rd Day Air.

Negatory. Midway won't do it and I've never heard anyone pulling it off. One of the prices of living in the greatland.

Why are you stopping at 1500fps? I run hardcast 405's in 45-70 up to 1700-1800fps

I should have explained, accuracy drops off badly. I have buffalo bores but they're erratic out of this rifle. She likes a load of 24 grains 2400 and mid-weight bullets.

At any rate, I dug around and found a half can of 4198 along with some 350 Hornady Interlocks. Those will do me fine.

[Leverdude]

To be specific, the load I'm working up will throw the 350 grain .458" hardcast bullet at a rather sedate speed of 1500 FPS, generating only about 1750 ft. lbs. at the muzzle. That's a big drop down from what this rifle is capable of with jacketed rounds. Assuming a lower right quadrant hit inside 100 yards, do you think that's enough to anchor a black bear or should I wait for Midway's supply of Hornady FP's to get back in stock?

Yep. 350 grains of lead moving at 1500 fps wont stop in many living things. If youre only going to push them 1500 fps you might consider softer bullets, then you get the best of both worlds, cheap bullets & expansion. From what I gather black bears arent hard to kill. Plenty of people take them with 357's. I like my 45/70 bullets a little heavier but cant think of anything I wouldn't shoot, short of big bears, with a 405 cast bullet going 1300 or so FPS.
Everything the US has used to be shot with soft lead bullets going 1300 or so fps.