OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

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awp101
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OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Or anyone else with knowledge of wildcatting... :wink:

I have it in my head that I want a .303 based wildcat after running across a Martini-Henry or Martini-Enfield last year chambered in 6.5-303.

I am aware of the .22-303, 6mm-303, 6.5mm-303 and 7mm-303. I'm most interested in the .22, 6.5 and 7mm versions. I know the Aussies and Canadians developed these pre and post-WWII but there's a bunch of variations. Some are full length, some are shortened, etc.

I've settled on the P14 action but from there I'm stuck.

From what I've seen online, the .22 would do best with a 1/10 twist, what about the 6.5 and 7mm versions?

Do the shortened versions have feed issues in the stock P14 action? If so, what needs to be done (besides using it as a single shot :lol: )

Barrels and reamers seem to be non-existant according to my friend Mr Google. I haven't bothered looking for dies yet since I have no idea what to look for without chamber info. Any ideas or how to explain what I'm looking for to a gunsmith or reamer/die maker?

Thanks! :mrgreen:
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Gun Smith »

C H Die company seems to be able to make a reloading die set for just about any caliber. Perhaps they could make a chamber reamer for what you want as well as a set of reloading dies.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by JustaJeepGuy »

Check with Brownell's and see what they say.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by JReed »

Go here and ask Steve.http://www.303british.com/ He is a great guy and very willing to answere questions pluss he is a member here.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Thanks for the suggestions so far!

JReed, I've been there but it seems most of the links pertaining to loads and information take you to the book sales. I have no problem with that but I'd like to know what this project will entail before investing in them! :lol:
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by JReed »

Go to the bottom of his page his email address is on the bottom. I have asked him many questions via email and always got an answer. He knows quite a bit about the wild cats and may be able to put you in touch with some one that can do what you want.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by mescalero1 »

JReed,
awp101 and I have been talking offline, seems we both want 6.5/.303 wilcats.
He wants his on a P-14
I want mine on an Enfield
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Uh-oh, now everyone knows the company you keep! :lol:

I'll tell you how slow I am (how slow are you?)...It wasn't until this evening I realized the P14 is a modified Mauser action with a fixed internal mag!

Looks like a No 4 action will be the way to go for me! Gotta have quick reloads when those varmints get riled up! :lol:
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Besides, this is a-ways off for me. Just dreaming, gatehering info and rolling pennies.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by mescalero1 »

I still say the reamer is going to be the hard part.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by waz »

Over here, the 303/25 was very popular post WWII. I believe it was a .303 Enfield necked to .257.

I know it's not what you're after, but that's the only one I have experience with.

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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Bruce Scott »

5/8" Simplex dies are available in 303/25 and 303/243
http://www.jansa.com.au/simplex5.php

And 7/8" in 303/22 and 303/270
http://www.jansa.com.au/simplex3.php
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by airedaleman »

Ellwood Epps in Canada was one of the leaders in wildcatting the .303. Still in business in Ontario...
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Pop Watts »

Hi Mate,
The 303-25 was the most popular conversion here in Australia. Well isn't that the same as a 6.5mm/303. I may be wrong, but a 25 cal is 1/4" diameter, which equals 6.5mm.
If you are really looking at doing one, would it be economical to buy a 303/25 rifle from Australia and import it into the States.
They go for very reasonable prices here.
Someone posted Jansa as the place to get dies for 303 wild cats, and that is the place. Jansa Arms is about 500 yards from my front door!
When I was at Jansa a couple of days ago he had a couple of 303/25 rifles on the shelf, both on No1 MkIII actions I think.
If any of you fine US citizens are interested send me a PM at bill_bailey@aapt.net.au and I can get you some more information.
They are not really high performance cartridges as the Lee actions are not as strong as P-14/Mauser type actions.
Will check some loading data for you if you want.
Drop me a line.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Bruce Scott »

Grabbed this bit of info elsewhere on the .303/25 [actual dia .257 or 6.5mm]:
".....as someone who actually owns a 303/25 (as we call 'em in Oz), I'll fill you in on the best way to go about it.
My 303/25 is built on a 1914 Short Lee Enfield action (basically the same as a SMLE No1 MkIII) which limits its performance, although it is still a great cal.
But a P14 is the perfect action use for 303/25.
The mag doesn't require modification and all you need to ensure it that the smaller cal bullet will feed, which is easy enough.
If you want a rifle which is as flexible as the cartridge can be you need to get a barrel with at least a 1:10" twist.
The mistake made here on many SMLE 303/25s was to only have a 1:12" bbl twist and this effectively limits one to 100gr.
The 1:10" twist will allow you to use everything right up to 120gr.
In a P14 action it will allow you to push chamber pressures up to and a little past 50,000psi and this will eclipse a 250 Savage and be at the heels if not equal to a 257 Roberts.
You can easily get 3000fps from an 87gr pill and this makes an excellent medium game load.
A 75gr HP or VMax can be launch significantly quicker and is sudden death to varmints and predators.
And good 110gr and 117gr pills should be good for deer and antelope.
Cases can be formed using a 270 neck die for the first step.
If you then anneal them and do the final step with a 303/25 FL sizing die it should be fine.
If you aren't worried about losing the odd case just gently take it straight down with the 303/25 FL die.
I'd recommend NOT using Remington cases as I have found they split quite quickly, some after the first firing.
Winchester are ok though we've found the best were PMC and Prvi Partizan which are probably not as ready available for you."


As already mentioned, these can be had pretty cheap in Aust. There are few in here starting at AU$250, including one on an M17 action for AU$395 (US$258).

More here: http://thegunsmiths.com.au/eshop/index. ... 742476db06

For gunsmithing/info on 303 based wildcats Epps would be a good place to start www.ellwoodepps.com
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Thanks to all so far!

Were the Australian conversions pretty standardized or were there a plethora as with any other wildcat?

I looked at the website Bruce Scott posted, intriuging stuff but what does having something exported run? I'm afraid it'd be as much as the rifle... :shock:
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by mescalero1 »

Need some Enfield experts to chip in here.
Is it not true that Enfield headspace is adjustable by using different bolt heads?
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking? :mrgreen:
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Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13

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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by O.S.O.K. »

IIRC, the .303 Epps is a common improved cartridge that can be applied to a regular SMLE - just a simple reaming job - just like an Ackley Improved case. Cost is basically the piloted finishing reamer, extension and handle.

Turns the .303 into a 30-06! Well, maybe not but it give it another 150 fps or so... ;)
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

OSOK, that's correct but Epps also did much the same as the Australians did as far as necking the .303 down and at about the same time according to my copy of Wildcat Cartridges.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by mescalero1 »

Barrel only, no hassle
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Woohoo! I thought about the same thing when I was looking at that Australian website. :lol:

BTW the only thing I could find on the Epps website was related to new guns, etc. Nothing about what Ellwood did.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by mescalero1 »

This is starting to look better
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by JReed »

mescalero1 wrote:Need some Enfield experts to chip in here.
Is it not true that Enfield headspace is adjustable by using different bolt heads?
Yes they had different bolt heads to adjust the head space. But if you are doing a new barrel you just headspace as normal by turning the bbl in or out no need to track down bolt heads.

The .303Epps is some thing I have been toying with for a long time now. Just have not been able to bring myself to mess with a good gun like that. All the ones that I have run across that I wouldnt mind doing it to have all had crappy bores. I think one in .22/303 would be cool a Brittish 22-250 :) especialy if it had a 1/9 twist would be the meow for 70gr bullets at the higher velocities.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Bruce Scott »

I posted the link to the Epps shop thinking that they may still have reamers and could do the chambering. As I understand it, Elwood Epps did a lot of work along the same lines as the Australian .303 wildcatters in addition to developing the .303 Epps.

Ray Jansa http://www.jansa.com.au/firearm.php can advize on/arrange export of firearms from Oz. You can Email Ray at jansa@hotkey.net.au

Importing a barrel may be the way to go but I think the SMLE barrel needs bushing to fit a P14 receiver.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by JFE »

Apart from the 25/303 another popular chambering in Oz was the 270/303. Both were factory loaded (locally) at one time. There were also several versions of the 22/303: the Wasp (shortened), the Sprinter (also shortened) and the Falcon (full length). There was also a 243/303 but I cant recall 6.5 or 7mm/303 versions but dont doubt they existed. There were also 35 and 375 wildcats based on the 303. In the post WWII period imported firearms were hard to obtain and quite expensive too, so wildcats based on the 303 case largely satisfied local centrefire demand - mostly based on SMLE's but also P14's.

As someone has already mentioned you might be better off trying to find a good used one in Oz and importing that. These guns are not worth a lot of money here these days.

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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Steve Redgwell »

awp101 wrote:BTW the only thing I could find on the Epps website was related to new guns, etc. Nothing about what Ellwood did.
That's because it's a business and not a historical page. Ellwood passed away in 2002. He was 94. He sold his business eleven or twelve years ago to the present owner.

Ellwood opened his first business in the 1920s. It was a motorcycle shop. He got into gunsmithing in the 1930s because he was getting more work from farmers and locals wanting repairs done to guns. Bikes didn't sell too well in farm country. He had the machinery and the customer base, so he switched over.

The first fifty years of the 20th century were the golden days of wildcatting and gunsmithing. Most of the work was still performed by hand and smokeless powder cartridges were fairly new. Experimentation was rampant. Ellwood built a hockey sock full of rifles on single shot and military surplus actions. Nowadays, he's remembered for his Epps cartridges, but he did a lot of work with military surplus Mausers, P14s and SS Winchesters as well. He was an olympic pistol coach. He was also the local curmudgeon. Some of the locals didn't see eye to eye with him.

From the 1920s until the early 1960s, he was in southern Ontario, near Clinton. In those days, almost all of southern Ontario was rural. He built a lot of groundhog rifles but was getting more requests for big game rifles. He moved north and built the present location after chasing business north where the moose were. He lived in a house built onto the side of the shop. In 1999 or 2000, he moved from there into a single level bungalow because he was having problems negotiating the steps.

All Epps cartridges were based on a simple premise - a 35 degree shoulder with minimal body taper. They were built from 22 up to 44, but the 375 Epps was supposed to be the biggest practical design.

Times change. Today, Epps feels different from what it used to be. There was a time when guys would go in there and hang out by the wood stove and shoot the breeze. No more. Insurance costs kicked the wood stove out. No one can smoke inside anymore. They have a much bigger gun room and many employees now.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by JFE »

Another option to satisfy your desire for a 303 wildcat is to approach Sprinter Arms - they are a barrel maker / gunsmith in South Australia. They have a lot of reamers and could probably make a barrel to suit your P14 or SMLE in several 303 wildcats. You could then have the barrel fitted in the US. As mentioned earlier, loading dies are available from Jansa and if you dont want to form brass then Bertram makes brass for a number of the old Aussie wildcats.

Sprinter Arms Co
37 Church St,
Hahndorf,
South Australia 5245
phone: +618 8388 7137

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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by airedaleman »

Steve Redgwell wrote:
awp101 wrote:BTW the only thing I could find on the Epps website was related to new guns, etc. Nothing about what Ellwood did.
That's because it's a business and not a historical page. Ellwood passed away in 2002. He was 94. He sold his business eleven or twelve years ago to the present owner.

Ellwood opened his first business in the 1920s. It was a motorcycle shop. He got into gunsmithing in the 1930s because he was getting more work from farmers and locals wanting repairs done to guns. Bikes didn't sell too well in farm country. He had the machinery and the customer base, so he switched over.

The first fifty years of the 20th century were the golden days of wildcatting and gunsmithing. Most of the work was still performed by hand and smokeless powder cartridges were fairly new. Experimentation was rampant. Ellwood built a hockey sock full of rifles on single shot and military surplus actions. Nowadays, he's remembered for his Epps cartridges, but he did a lot of work with military surplus Mausers, P14s and SS Winchesters as well. He was an olympic pistol coach. He was also the local curmudgeon. Some of the locals didn't see eye to eye with him.

From the 1920s until the early 1960s, he was in southern Ontario, near Clinton. In those days, almost all of southern Ontario was rural. He built a lot of groundhog rifles but was getting more requests for big game rifles. He moved north and built the present location after chasing business north where the moose were. He lived in a house built onto the side of the shop. In 1999 or 2000, he moved from there into a single level bungalow because he was having problems negotiating the steps.

All Epps cartridges were based on a simple premise - a 35 degree shoulder with minimal body taper. They were built from 22 up to 44, but the 375 Epps was supposed to be the biggest practical design.

Times change. Today, Epps feels different from what it used to be. There was a time when guys would go in there and hang out by the wood stove and shoot the breeze. No more. Insurance costs kicked the wood stove out. No one can smoke inside anymore. They have a much bigger gun room and many employees now.
Thank you for the Epps biographical info. I was always interested in his cartridges.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

Thanks Mr Redgwell, I'd read Epps wasn't what "it used to be" but I didn't know why. Being in TX, it would have been a bit of a trip for me to get there. :lol: I agree on wildcatting and the first half of the last century. Just another reason I think I was just born too late. :wink:

The .22 Sprinter sounds interesting and I've been able to read a very little bit on it in Wildcat Cartridges.

I wonder if the Sprinter would be good in a No 4 since I don't have to run ANYTHING at max pressure or velocity. In fact, I prefer not to. I'm thinking a No 4 for the Sprinter and the P14 for the 303/25 or 303/270... :wink:

JFE, how far ahead are y'all? I may have to call at 0300 my time! :lol:
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Steve Redgwell »

I often wonder why people bother with wildcats or improved cartridges these days.

When wildcatting was popular, there was a reason for doing it - primarily because of performance gaps. People may romanticize it now, but the practice began because factory cartridges weren't available for certain jobs. A lot of experimentation happened out of necessity.

Wildcatting isn't always the correct term. Most modifications were improvements on existing certridges. Most of Ackley's or Epps designs were technically "improved" because you started with the original cartridge, fired it in an improved chamber and the brass was fireformed. 303 British cartridges fired in a 303 Epps chamber become a 303 Epps cartridge.

Today, we have cartridges in all calibres that cover everything. It's easier and cheaper to use an existing factory offering. Still, shooters will improve or even wildcat certain cases because they can. There is the fun factor and the idea that you have a unique design.

Any improved or wildcat cartridge needs to be held to 50,000 PSI if it's being fired from a rifle using the No 4 action. If you cannot find a barrel, check in with Chris Dichter at Pac Nor. I believe that he can make LE barrels. Before you order any high priced items, make sure that you can get reloading dies and load data.

Have fun.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by JFE »

awp101 - use this link for checking different times in different zones (even adjusts for daylight saving): http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

You might have difficulty finding dies for the more obscure 22/303 wildcats but I'm sure Sprinter Arms can set you straight on that. The more popular ones like 25/303 and 270/303 should be readily available, but probably in the smaller 5/8" dies. Jansa should be able to clarify this.

FYI I have some old loading data for these wildcats and to give you some idea of ballistics, below are typical performance levels:

22/303 Sprinter in SMLE actions:
45gr 3250 fps
50gr 3150 fps
55gr 3050 fps

270/303 in P14 actions:
100gr 2900 fps
130gr 2750 fps
150gr 2550 fps

ADI (Aussie makers of a number of Hodgdon's powders) have loading info you can look up. Just beware that this info has a reputation for being somewhat unreliable. http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/

HTH & good luck.

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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

JFE, thanks! I'll hit them up when this is closer to reality. I like heavier bullets at modest velocities so those look like good numbers to me.

Mr Redgwell, this is for funsies and to get a feel for the old days.
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Steve Redgwell »

If you're interested in reading about these cartridges, check this page - The Accurate Lee Enfield. It is a book I wrote that costs $18.95 plus shipping. There is a table of contents and an area about Wildcat/Improved cartridges.

http://www.303british.com/id6.html
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by awp101 »

I may just end up doing that since I enjoy adding to my library almost as much as I enjoy adding to the firestick collection! :mrgreen:
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain

Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13

Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
Bang
Levergunner
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:55 pm
Location: Australia, Melbourne
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Re: OT Need a hand with .303 wildcat (Aussie or Canadian)

Post by Bang »

awp101 wrote:Thanks to all so far!
Were the Australian conversions pretty standardized or were there a plethora as with any other wildcat?
I looked at the website Bruce Scott posted, intriuging stuff but what does having something exported run? I'm afraid it'd be as much as the rifle... :shock:
Hi
In some of the States of Australia before WW2 it was forbidden to have military calibres so the Government Small Arms Factory turned out the alternative calibres.
Yes you could buy directly from them right up until the 1980's - then they deemed that we were all too dangerous to have cheap government firearms.

No1MkIII and III* actions were cheap and plentiful so think of a projectile and neck it down from the standard .303 case.
25-303, 270-303, 6.5-303, 30-303, and the cheapest and worse was when they simply cut off one thread off the standard 303 barrel and screwed it back on - so all the normal cases were too long.
Simplex dies through Jansa have always been cheap and cheerful. Next gunshow is ~2 weeks away there will ALWAYS be oddball 303 based barrels and dies for sale.

I have a 10kg box of various no1 bolt heads - unlike no4's which have head space stamped on them these are just "mixed" - rarest is the .22 Hornet and 22lr bolt heads with extractors.

Cheers
I wish to die like my grandmother - peacefully in her sleep.
Not screaming like the passengers in her car !

Is there a 21st Century lever action?
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