A Single Action Army question...

[RJM52]

I have a question on the way a SAA/Freedom Arms/Ruger original style revolver should/can be carried..... Now everyone knows that the cowboys of the old west always carried their SAA Colts with 5 beans in the wheel because enough of them had something land on the hammer while it was in their holster to make the firing pin ignite the primer.

Now the question as to the mechanics of the SAA and most other SA revolvers of the early Colt style...not the Ruger transferbar style. When the hammer is all the way down then the hammer is either resting on a frame mounted firing pin or the firing pin nose on the hammer is resting on the primer...that is a given.

When the hammer is pulled to the rear there is a "click" and the firing pin is no longer against the primer...a "safe" position. Pull back more and the locking bolt disengages from the cylinder notch and the hammer goes to the 1/2 cock loading position.

My question is, from a "strength" perspective, that first "click" to the "safe" position weak or strong. If one puts the hammer to the firing pin off primer "safe" position and drops the gun will it break and the gun possibly discharge...or were the cowboys simply forgetting to pull back the hammer to the safety position and leaving it all the way down?

The reason I ask is in everything I have read on this subject, the author ALWAYS says that SA are dangerous with all cylinders full because if the hammer is down the firing pin is resting on the primer and "bump" could discharge the gun...but if put in the "safe" position..such is not the case.

Thanks...Bob Makowski

[Andrew]

Not a saftey. Others smarter will explain more.

[J Miller]

As Andrew said, that first click is not a safety. It is just a small fragile notch on the face of the hammer. It was put there I'm told to stop the hammer should your thumb slip off of it. A round under the hammer with the trigger in the first notch will still fire if the gun is dropped. The notches on the hammer face, and the sear area of the trigger are very small and can easily be broken.

Ruger Hammer and Trigger.JPG

This is an Old Model Ruger hammer and trigger. Same design as the original Colt and the copies. You can see just how small and fragile those notches and that trigger is.
It doesn't take much to break them.

Joe

[Malamute]

It's "sort of" a safety. Not safe to carry as a regular thing, as a stirrup falling off the horn as you tighten your cinch can break the tip off the trigger, or shear the notch in the hammer and the gun will fire. I believe Keith mentioned this happeneing to several people he was aware of. Any hard impact can do it. Dropping the gun on hard ground will fire it if it lands on the hammer. If I were expecting immenent trouble, I would carry fully loaded. If leaving it on the table next to the bed, it would be fully loaded. I believe the manual that came with my Colt called it a safety notch. They also suggested it was best to carry it with an empty chamber under the hammer.

I've tried leaving the firing pin between the rims of the shells in a Colt SAA 44 spl and 45, and even in a well fitted half flap holster (meaning nothing caught the hammer and allowed the cylinder to release), the cylinder turned in daily carry, leaving the firing pin down on a primer. This happened several times. I quit doing it.

[jd45]

Bob, I'm no expert on the mechanics of the Colt SAA deisgn, but I think I can safely say that an accidental discharge was NOT likely to happen when the hammer was hit while the firearm was in its holster, rather it discharged when the revolver, with a cartridge under the hammer, was dropped on the hammer spur, forcing the firing pin in the hammer into the primer & thereby setting off the cartridge. I can't even imagine a circumstance where a Colt SAA in a holster could be accidentally discharged, no offense meant. jd45

[Kansas Ed]

While FA's both 83 and 97's are not copies of the SAA, they do have a safety of sorts, by way of a hammer block. FA still does not recommend a cartridge under the hammer while carrying. Me personally......I think it would take a crippling fall to set off an 83 IMO with the hammer block.

Ed

[RJM52]

Ok...so for you folks who carry a SA for a personal defense weapon, just keep one around the house loaded or when hunting, do you:

A) Keep the chamber under the hammer empty and the hammer all the way down;

B) Keep the chamber under the hammer empty and the hammer in the "safety notch";

C) Keep the gun loaded all the way and have the hammer in the safety notch;

D) Other....


So my next question would be, has anyone seen a set of these parts really fail? By that I mean that the trigger was in the safety notch, something hit the hammer spur and the parts broke causing the gun to discharge...

I have read Elmer's words about the cowboy and the stirrup, but again, did the parts fail or did the cowboy fail to make the gun safe? I don't recall Elmer ever having said he saw the gun, talked to the person involved or the gunsmith who would have needed to repair the gun to make it safe to carry again...

I can think of a very famous or infamous case of the hunter off the coast of Alaska in a boat looking for bear I believe. He had an OM Ruger Super Blackhawk in a holster that fell out of the holster and discharged. I remember Ruger's argument before the court was that the instruction manual specifically stated that the gun was to be carried with the hammer over and empty chamber that the hunter ignored but Ruger lost anyway. Does anyone know did the safety notch/trigger fail or had the hunter failed to put the hammer in the safe notch... I think this was the case after which the nice OM markings on the barrel were replaced with the "WARNING"....that is now under the barrel.

Thanks for all your information...Bob

[kimwcook]

I carry a Colt SAA around the place and when riding horses. I only carry five with the hammer all the way down on an empty chamber. It's just not worth packing with one under the hammer, to me anyway. And I carry my FA 83 as a four shot. There would be very few instances I can think of that I'd carry six.

Maybe Nate will chime in here, but most smiths that work on Colt SAA's will tell you that little first notch isn't much of a safety. They're easily broken and smiths who work on Colt SAA's are constantly welding new ones on.

It's your bacon, carry six if you want. I just would hate to hear you suing Colt, FA, etc.. because you put a round through some part of your appendage.

[RJM52]

...you will never hear me suing anyone if it is my own D@@@ fault....that is why this country is in the condition it is today... No one takes responsibility for their own actions.

For OM style guns I have:

FA 83 .41 Magnum
Colt TR Commemorative
USFirearms SAA in .45 Colt, .22 Magnum and a Flat Top Target .22/.22 Mag
Ruger .30 Carbine

All the rest of the SAs are NM Rugers.

The FA gets carried hunting and when it does it is full and holstered usually in a Strong 935 Full Flap Holster. When the others are shot (never carried so far) they are filled with six as I don't like snapping on empty cylinders if I don't count rounds...

One of the reasons I asked this question is that I am an NRA Basic Pistol/Personal Protection Instructor and Training Counselor (Instructor Trainer). The difference between carrying an OM vs. a NM comes up every class and we just tell people to carry OM guns with an empty chamber. But there have been some who want to keep a SA for personal protection (which is now being recognized by the NRA in the new Personal Protection Outside the Home Course) in the home or for carry and to drop one round is loosing 15-20% of your firepower in a gun that is not the fasted to reload anyway.

I'm just trying to get the most accurate information other than "once upon a time a cowboy dropped a stirrup on a hammer and it went off..." If it is really dangerous I want to have the hard facts to prove why.

Thanks again...Bob

[JustaJeepGuy]

"once upon a time a cowboy dropped a stirrup on a hammer and it went off..."

If you keep a live round under the hammer of an original Colt that's in a holster on your belt and drop a stirrup (hard enough) on the hammer, you're going to shoot yourself in the leg. No parts will break, as the firing pin is sitting on a live primer. Next time you have a Colt SAA at the range, rest the hammer on the primer and, with the piece pointed safely downrange, smack the back of the hammer spur with a mallet.

[RJM52]

JJG...you are not reading the above posts... If you pull the hammer back one click the firing pin is no longer in contact with the primer...it is in a safety notch...that is point of this post...how strong is that notch.

Bob

[rangerider7]

Keep the sixth chamber empty. The more you carry a SA the odds get heavy on having it fall out of your holster. I didn't think it would happen to me, but it did. I was lucky I always carried it empty under the hammer.

[J Miller]

To answer your questions:

When my Colt style singe actions are loaded and NOT being fired the chamber under the hammer is EMPTY. That is the ONLY safe position this action has.

As I said in my original post which it appears you didn't read, the safety notch is not strong and neither is the skinny top part of the trigger. These can be easily broken.

Can a Colt style action be fired if it's in the holster and loaded with a round under the hammer? YES.
I used to drive armored trucks. When I first started I did not have an appropriate gun. So I carried my Old Model Ruger Blackhawk. No problem for me as I carried it with an empty chamber under the hammer.
However another driver also carried an old style single action and he had all six chambers loaded. At some point he did something that caused the hammer to impact part of the truck. They took him to the hospital with life threatening injuries to his leg. It didn't take much of an impact to fire that gun. He survived but never returned to that job.

It is very simple and there really is no need to go into great discussions about it.
To carry an old style Colt designed single action revolver of any make safely, keep the chamber under the hammer empty. That's it, that's the only safe way to carry it. It's not rocket science, it's just common sense. That's all you need to tell your NRA pistol classes.

Joe

[JustaJeepGuy]

JJG...you are not reading the above posts... If you pull the hammer back one click the firing pin is no longer in contact with the primer...it is in a safety notch...that is point of this post...how strong is that notch.

Bob

True, but Elmer's story about the guy who dropped the stirrup pointed out that he had had the hammer down on a live round. At least, that's the way I remember it. Also, I have read that the first notch isn't called a "safety" notch, but a "loading" notch. I vaguely recall reading that somewhere about 25 years ago. Of course, I'm not sure I can trust my memory any more...I seem to forget a lot of stuff...

[RJM52]

JJG...you are not reading the above posts... If you pull the hammer back one click the firing pin is no longer in contact with the primer...it is in a safety notch...that is point of this post...how strong is that notch....have you ever owned an original style SA or is this all just from what you have read?

Bob

True, but Elmer's story about the guy who dropped the stirrup pointed out that he had had the hammer down on a live round. At least, that's the way I remember it. Also, I have read that the first notch isn't called a "safety" notch, but a "loading" notch. I vaguely recall reading that somewhere about 25 years ago. Of course, I'm not sure I can trust my memory any more...I seem to forget a lot of stuff...

JJG...it is not a loading notch...you can't load the gun from the safety notch we are talking about... The Halfcock notch is the "loading" notch.

Joe...I am listening but you are not giving me any information that I already don't know... I already have read the safety notch is "weak"...I want to know how weak. As to your co-worker who had the unintentional discharge that is a GREAT story, one I can use in class but in what condition was his gun...hammer down on a live round or hammer down on the safety notch. What was the make of the gun? If the gun was on the safety notch what part broke...hammer notch or the sear area of the trigger. I gotta have all the facts, not just the gun hit some part of the truck and went off...

Rangerider7...great story but what is the rest... Now your gun could not discharge because there was no round under the hammer. So when you carry a SA with an empty chamber is the hammer fully down so in case it gets dropped the trigger/safety notch don't get damaged or was it in the safety notch and did or did not get damaged...for that matter did the gun even land on the hammer?

Thanks again....Bob

[Ysabel Kid]

Ok...so for you folks who carry a SA for a personal defense weapon, just keep one around the house loaded or when hunting, do you:

A) Keep the chamber under the hammer empty and the hammer all the way down;

A. The old-timer wisdom, like it often is, is still the best!

[rangerider7]

RJM52, I was getting out of my truck. I had forgotten, or it had slipped off, to put the hammer leather loop on. The Colt SAA and holster were laying in the passenger seat. I went around to put the rig on and as I picked the rig up the SA feel out of the holster. The SA was loaded except for under the hammer. I load it anytime after I come through the front gate for two or four legged skunks. It slipped out of the holster and fell to the ground. It hit on the grip and hammer facing me. I think it would have fired if it would have had a cartridge under it. I don't even put six in the chamber when I am repeat target shooting. No first notch with the firing pin on a primer at anytime. My grandfather taught me when I was 9 years old take no chances with a loaded gun. That has been 55 years ago. I could have been badly hurt or killed when that SA fell out but all that happen was I got a little dust on the old Colt and the hammer and revolver were fine. I always load one, skip one load four more, pull hammer back all the way and lower on to an empty chamber. A good habit. HAMMER DOWN ON A EMPTY CHAMBER, THE ONLY WAY. IMHO

[ceb]

RMJ52, I have no way of answering your question with out setting up some guns for testing to see just how strong that safety notch is. I ain't gonna do that. All I'll say is that in the 100 years plus of use of this design, common wisdom was to carry the gun hammer down on a empty chamber. I'm certainly not going to second guess that experience, my guess is it was passed along for a valid reason.

[J Miller]

.........<snip> Joe...I am listening but you are not giving me any information that I already don't know... I already have read the safety notch is "weak"...I want to know how weak. As to your co-worker who had the unintentional discharge that is a GREAT story, one I can use in class but in what condition was his gun...hammer down on a live round or hammer down on the safety notch. What was the make of the gun? If the gun was on the safety notch what part broke...hammer notch or the sear area of the trigger. I gotta have all the facts, not just the gun hit some part of the truck and went off... <snip>...............


Thanks again....Bob

Bob,
I can't tell you "how weak" other than to show you pictures of the item. I'm not going to put a functional gun in a vise and smack the hammer to see how much force it takes to break them. It will have to suffice that these parts are small and week.

AS for my co-worker, I do not have all that information. The gun was if I remember correctly a Hawes, and in good mechanical condition. I was told he had a live round under the hammer. I do not know if any part broke or if the firing pin was resting right on the primer. I was not given this information. I do remember this clearly though as I explained to the management that I did not have a round under the hammer on my gun, and therefor it could not fire as his did.

I cannot give you any more information. I've givin you all I have. I will tell you this though. I got my first old style single action revolver in 74 , 35 years ago and followed the teachings I received before I was legal to buy a gun:
"Load one, skip one, load four, pull the hammer back and lower it. The hammer will be on an empty chamber."
In all these years I have never had an ND with an old style single action.
I've had one fall off a desk and land on the hammer ..... the muzzle looking right at me. I didn't even get a blood pressure spike over it because I knew the gun was safe with the empty chamber under the hammer. But I was p.o.'d at myself for putting it where it could fall.


Joe

[Buck Elliott]

THE FIRST NOTCH IS NOT A SAFETY NOTCH, AS SUCH, AND ITS PURPOSE IS TO STOP THE HAMMER IF YOU ACCIDENTALLY DROP IT WHILE LOADING. THE BEST ADVICE IS TO DISREGARD IT ALTOGETHER...

CARRY YOUR SAA WITH NO MORE THAN 5 CARTRIDGES, AND YOU'LL NEVER HAVE TO FIND OUT HOW STRONG/WEAK THE SEAR PARTS ARE...!!!

[marlinman93]

Ive owned a couple with that notch broken, so I sure wouldn't depend on it to save me!

[JerryB]

I have owned my Colt SAA.45Colt since 1959 and I have carried it with FIVE rounds in the cylinder and never felt undergunned in any way.If you can't accept the limitations of a SAA get a Ruger NV.

[Doc Hudson]

When I was young enough not to no anybetter, I think it was back in Grant's second administration, I carried a SA revolver with all six chambers loaded and the hammer on the "safety notch." I was lucky.

An old school mate doing the same thing was not as lucky. It was a cheap shiny .22 SA of some brand. He dropped it and the safety notch sheered off. He was lucky enough not to be injured at the time. But when his Dad discovered a bullet hole in the side of his truck, that was remedied.

Not long after that, the full cock notch broke as well. Henceforth that old six-gun was a slip gun. Kenny shot it enough that he became right handy slip shooting.

These days even though my Italian SAA has an alleged hammer block safety, I still just load five.