How about the "most under-appreciated" cartridge!

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:26 pm

I'm a bit puzzled about the .30-30 being noted as unappreciated? With the millions of guns built and sold in this caliber, plus the numbers of game taken with it, I wonder how it could be considered here as "unappreciated"? Seems it would have withered away, never to be heard from if it was so unappreciated IMHO.

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:14 pm

marlinman93 wrote:I'm a bit puzzled about the .30-30 being noted as unappreciated? With the millions of guns built and sold in this caliber, plus the numbers of game taken with it, I wonder how it could be considered here as "unappreciated"? Seems it would have withered away, never to be heard from if it was so unappreciated IMHO.

The problem IMO is just what you said. There have been millions of rifles made in the caliber, at least in the first half of the last century, but no one talks about the 30/30, or writes about it. It is just there. The gun mags never suggest it is a good caliber for anything and, today very few companies continue to make rifles. Young shooters think of the 30/30 as a relic and demand a short magnum for everything. I think this is the definition of "unappreciated".

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:24 pm

marlinman93 wrote:I'm a bit puzzled about the .30-30 being noted as unappreciated? With the millions of guns built and sold in this caliber, plus the numbers of game taken with it, I wonder how it could be considered here as "unappreciated"? Seems it would have withered away, never to be heard from if it was so unappreciated IMHO.

MarlinMan93,
That's why the thread is "Under-appreciated;" not "unappreciated."

Almost any article that you read on the Internet, in magazines or other media will "darn it with faint praise" as the saying goes. Just like (for some stupid reason) chocolate is almost always advertised as "decadent" or "decadently delicious," you will be hard put to find a writer who doesn't use the old saw - "It's a good brush gun" - as if that is all it is good for.

It is pecisely because of the reason that you said - "millions of guns built and sold in this caliber" - that the gun is UNDER-appreciated. It should be touted as one of the premiere hunting rifles ever built, owing to the popularity and effectiveness of the round. There are rounds that are more powerful. There are bullets that are smaller, with rifles handling them being correspondingly lighter. But the millions of rifle owners must have a reason for preferring the .30-30 over other choices.

Whether it's the price factor, superb handling and toting characteristics, relatively inexpensive ammo, mild recoil, perfect balance of bullet versus game, the neat looks of a levergun, its basis in the American tradition, its wide range of useful game getting power, or any combination of the above - the .30-30's sales and continuous use shows it to be one of the greatest rifles and one of the greatest calibers ever created. It does not get that praise from gunwriters at large. It is, perhaps, appreciated. But it is under-appreciated.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:35 pm

Well I guess I put the .30-30 into the "taken for granted" area, rather than underappreciated. And I think there's a difference. It may be underappreciated by gun rags, and gun writers, but it sure doesn't seem to be underappreciated by the general shooting and hunting population.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:41 am

it sure doesn't seem to be underappreciated by the general shooting and hunting population

that's my point, I don't care what gunwriters think.

The other cartridges mentioned have smaller followings, i.e. fewer who appreciate them.

lozen · Post by **lozen** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:31 am

marlinman93 wrote:Well I guess I put the .30-30 into the "taken for granted" area, rather than underappreciated. And I think there's a difference. It may be underappreciated by gun rags, and gun writers, but it sure doesn't seem to be underappreciated by the general shooting and hunting population.

Yea. Guys are calling it underappreciated, and talking about all the millions and millions of guns sold in the same breath. What could a gunwriter write about the 30-30 that hasn't been beat to death for 113+ years.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:09 am

I'd say the 38-40 (also known as the 38 W.C.F.). This is just a great cartridges in a little package. It is also an old west cartridge, first introduced in 1879. The name is actually a bit of a misnomer, as standard groove diameter is .401". It should have been called a 40-38. It's original black powder ballistics of 180 grains at 1,268 fps with a cast bullet is good for deer out to 100 yards. It's original H.V. Model 92 load with a 180 grain bullet at 1,770 fps is getting nigh onto 30-30 territory. And it comes in a very nice rifle as well, the Winchester Model 1892. I don't know about the original Marlins, but I expect that the original Marlin Model 1894 also came in this great little cartridge. The photo below shows the 38-40 cartridge and the cast bullet I use in it ....

P.S. I think the 38-40 would be just the medicine for Nath's foxes!

lozen · Post by **lozen** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:58 am

Kirk, I'd also say the 38-40 is a great canidate for "the most under-appreciated cartridge" . I can't think of any modern or reproduction levers that have ever been chambered for it. If you read Cartridges Of The World, 44-40 is one of the greatest cartridges ever, and the 38-40 is just about useless. A guy could make a pretty good argument that 38-40 is a better cartridge than a 44-40. I shoot a Marlin 1889, and 1894 in 38-40. They also chambered the 1888 in it.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:17 pm

Great photos and compelling argument, KirkD!

bbleverfan · Post by **bbleverfan** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:37 pm

i would have to say the 338 win mag it is impressive.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:01 am

KirkD wrote:I'd say the 38-40 (also known as the 38 W.C.F.). This is just a great cartridges in a little package. It is also an old west cartridge, first introduced in 1879. The name is actually a bit of a misnomer, as standard groove diameter is .401". It should have been called a 40-38. It's original black powder ballistics of 180 grains at 1,268 fps with a cast bullet is good for deer out to 100 yards. It's original H.V. Model 92 load with a 180 grain bullet at 1,770 fps is getting nigh onto 30-30 territory. And it comes in a very nice rifle as well, the Winchester Model 1892. I don't know about the original Marlins, but I expect that the original Marlin Model 1894 also came in this great little cartridge. The photo below shows the 38-40 cartridge and the cast bullet I use in it ....

P.S. I think the 38-40 would be just the medicine for Nath's foxes!

Do you hunt with that bullet? How well does it work, and on what game?

colo native · Post by **colo native** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:58 pm

348, 33 cfw, 40-65

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:57 pm

KirkD wrote:

That looks like the fore-runner of the .357/44 Bain & Davis...!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:34 pm

KirkD wrote:I'd say the 38-40 (also known as the 38 W.C.F.). This is just a great cartridges in a little package. It is also an old west cartridge, first introduced in 1879. The name is actually a bit of a misnomer, as standard groove diameter is .401". It should have been called a 40-38. It's original black powder ballistics of 180 grains at 1,268 fps with a cast bullet is good for deer out to 100 yards. It's original H.V. Model 92 load with a 180 grain bullet at 1,770 fps is getting nigh onto 30-30 territory. And it comes in a very nice rifle as well, the Winchester Model 1892. I don't know about the original Marlins, but I expect that the original Marlin Model 1894 also came in this great little cartridge. The photo below shows the 38-40 cartridge and the cast bullet I use in it ....

P.S. I think the 38-40 would be just the medicine for Nath's foxes!

Kirk that picture is awesome.

azzhandler · Post by **azzhandler** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:25 am

make mine the 284 winchester, the original short fat cartridge, perfect for most of the big game in north america, lends its case to make some wonderful long range wonders {22-284, 6mm-284 } and its a short action too boot!! Too bad the only guys who ever had anything good too say about it, didnt write for a living. The cartridge was born about 40 yrs before its time.

james

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:09 am

I think the 284 is a super cartridge , it is the lenght of a 308 and works in short action and with 30-06 volume and a wildcatter dream cartridge .

BlueStateSaint · Post by **BlueStateSaint** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:35 am

A lot of the rounds listed in the various posts up to mine here would fit the bill. The most under-appreciated of them, IMO, is the .32 Winchester Special. My aunt has one in a Marlin 336 (I think that's it), and she's told me on several occasions that "deer don't walk away from it." I saw a few (in Winchester 94s) at a gun show a couple of weeks ago, and they were waaaaay out of my price range.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:48 am

Travis Morgan wrote: Do you hunt with that bullet? How well does it work, and on what game?

Travis, I just got my first 38-40 this past year and have not had a chance to hunt with it yet. However, I've talked to a couple fellows who use the 38-40 and they've bagged some pretty nice, good-sized deer with theirs, all one-shot kills. Regarding the bullet, I've no doubt it will do the job very nicely. The nice meplat, coupled with 188 grains of lead behind it will do the job no problem. I'm still working on loads and plan to use either it or my 44-40 next deer season.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:05 pm

I like the .38-40 as well... though I don't have one.

I think if I were to not be "allowed" my .357 combo and had to stick to guns manufactured before 1900, I'd be more than happy to run .38-40s.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:34 pm

KirkD wrote:
Travis Morgan wrote: Do you hunt with that bullet? How well does it work, and on what game?
Travis, I just got my first 38-40 this past year and have not had a chance to hunt with it yet. However, I've talked to a couple fellows who use the 38-40 and they've bagged some pretty nice, good-sized deer with theirs, all one-shot kills. Regarding the bullet, I've no doubt it will do the job very nicely. The nice meplat, coupled with 188 grains of lead behind it will do the job no problem. I'm still working on loads and plan to use either it or my 44-40 next deer season.

Not to be a jerk, or anything, but it's pretty well established that RNFP cast bullets ain't all that hot on big game. Have you tried any semi wadcatters?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:53 pm

Travis Morgan wrote:
KirkD wrote:Not to be a jerk, or anything, but it's pretty well established that RNFP cast bullets ain't all that hot on big game. Have you tried any semi wadcatters?

By gum! I didn't know that Travis. I've been using RNFP cast bullets on deer for years, mostly with one shot kills, and didn't realize that it had been pretty well established that they ain't all that hot on big game.

The only animal I ever took care of with a semi-wadcutter was a coon and that was shot with a Keith 44 bullet. Those semi wadcutters are good on game, I won't deny that, but a bullet with a wide meplat, like the 38-40 bullet I show in the photo, will do the job just fine as well. I wonder what guru 'pretty well established' that RNFP bullets ain't all that hot on big game?

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:41 pm

Ya mean, besides Elmer Keith?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:18 pm

Well I sure won't argue with Elmer Keith. However, I find it hard to believe he said something like that without qualifying what he meant. Perhaps he was referring to bullets that were mostly round nose with only a tiny meplat. The Keith bullet is a puncher alright, primarily because of its large meplat. I chose the RCBS mould for my 38-40 for the same reason. I just compared the meplat of my 38-40 RCBS bullet with my Keith 44 cal bullet (.431) and the meplat on the 38-40 bullet is slightly larger than the one on the Keith. The Keith has an extra driving band forward of the crimp groove that can add to the meplat, however. The thing I look for in a bullet mould that I'm purchasing is a good meplat. I'm sure Keith, if he were still alive, would hold that there is a point where a RNFP bullet, as the meplat is increased, becomes very effective on game of any size. So I guess the bottom line is that I think Keith's design is A-1, but I don't feel undergunned with some other design with a wide flat meplat. The ballistics may also be a factor. My experience is primarily in the 1,200 to 1,500 fps category, with the exception of the 30-30, the 303 British and my early days with the 45-70 and Hornady round nose bullets.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:15 am

Kirk,

He did indeed advocate a nice, wide meplat, but also said how imortant he thought a sharp shoulder was, so the bullet punched a clean hole, rather than poking a hole that closed up behing the bullet. Especially with little bitty bullets like a .38.

Please keep in mind, I wan't trying to start a pie fight, I just wondered at your bullet choice. Discussing bullets and reloading is a darn sight more fun to me than arguing Marlin vs. Winchester, why some people ruin a perfectly good rifle with peep sight or scopes, etc..

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:29 am

underappreciated ------- hmmmmmm

the 30-30 is def. on that list, followed by the almost forgotten .300 H&H Mag (the father of many of the .300 series belted magnums today

underappreciated pistol cartridges would be the .44 Special and 10mm -- if people knew how effective they really were in their ideal formats - neither of these would be on the brink of extinction today. (extinct as related to new production. although both seem to try to make a comeback every few years or so )

i will even throw in th 41 mag

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:41 am

32-40 and 8.15 x 46r to of the greatest target rounds for cast bullets . 40-60 maynard which was the cartridge 1st sniper in civil war also know as the 40-60 sharps straight and 40 Krag

okdee · Post by **okdee** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:06 am

Well, I have got to speak up!

No one as mentioned the almight 32 Long Colt! One of the most excellent rounds out of a 92 Marlin lever action you will find.

It needs to be revived!!!! Obsolete they call it. Hogwash!

Hey, do you have any you want to get rid of???

Oklahoma Dee

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:10 am

Travis Morgan wrote:Kirk,

He did indeed advocate a nice, wide meplat, but also said how imortant he thought a sharp shoulder was, so the bullet punched a clean hole, rather than poking a hole that closed up behing the bullet. Especially with little bitty bullets like a .38.

I tend to agree that a sharp shoulder improves the effectiveness of the bullet, although I do wonder how sharp that shoulder is once it has punched through the hide and external layer of muscle, to get to the vitals. I suspect the diameter of the meplat is the main player with the sharpness of the shoulder secondary, yet perhaps augmenting the wound. I should mention that the 38-40 bullet is not a 38 caliber. The groove diameter on a 38-40 is .401". I expect that this bullet should be at least as effective as the RCBS 150 grain 30-30 bullet I use. Even though it has a considerably smaller meplat than my 38-40 due to its small caliber, I took two bucks this year with it, each one-shot kills. Also, the one bullet I did recover, although expanded, still had an expanded diameter less than the 40 caliber 38-40. The 38-40 bullet is heavier, and at its original HV ballistics, has a lot of punch. Overall, although the semi-wadcutter design is likely has better knock-down power, the RNFP with a wide meplat is no slouch. I've certainly had no problem in dropping game with a RNFP with a wide meplat. Also, they do leave a good hole, considerably larger than the diameter of the bullet so I've not found any problem with the wound channel closing up behind the bullet, but this may be true of RNFP with a small meplat .... I don't know, as I've never used small meplat bullets.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:50 am

There is no comparison in the would channel between a small meplat .357 - even a Keith type - and a 70%+ Meplat WFN like the bullets I shoot.

This is the PERMENANT wound channel in soft (lung) tissue caused by a C358180RF with a 70% meplat. No expansion.

Keith had some good ideas, but he never met Veral Smith.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:42 pm

I have a custom mould by Veral Smith for my 38-55. Haven't taken game with that particular bullet yet, but looking forward to it. I just measured the meplat on my 38-40 bullet. The flat part is .283", which for a .401" bullet works out to be 71%. The last deer I took with a 38-55, the bullet had a smaller, yet decent meplat. Here is a photo of the entrance hole ...

and here is a photo of the exit hole ....

The young buck went down on the spot. It was running flat out at 75 yards, parallel to me. I held about 3 feet in front of it, but still hit it a bit far back. Here's a photo of it ...

blueroan · Post by **blueroan** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:48 pm

30/30, 38 Special and 44 Special would be my candidates.

Too many gunwriters shooting with typewriters don't recognize the 30/30 for its good characteristics, but the shooting public---not dedicated hobbyists!---know a good thing for the guy who re-sights his gun and then gets his deer...and then cleans, oils and stores his gun until next year. I work with a lot of guys like that and they bring me 4 or 5 casings from this years sight-in and sucessful deer hunt.

The 38 and 44 Specials are over shadowed by their more powerful children, although gun writers with carpal tunnel and other "abuse from wrist wreckers" problems are recognizing their virtues. Even the 44 Magnum is overshadowed in the "gun rags by the 454, 460, 475, 500, etc.

Throw in the 45 ACP with these also. A lot of press to 9 mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W and 10 mm for law enforcement or self defense.

The magazines do their thing, but shooters know better.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:43 pm

Got a point there...

Though I'm not sure .38 Sp & .45acp are that "underappreciated" given the number of new & newly designed guns out for them.

.44 sp & .41 mag most certainly though...

huntershooter · Post by **huntershooter** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:38 pm

7X57 Mauser
.38 Super

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:38 pm

.38 super.... with that round around for years I wonder why they came up with .357 sig?... I know the numbers are a little different but they seem awful close to me.
J

BlueStateSaint · Post by **BlueStateSaint** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:58 pm

I just thought about the .32 WS, and I figured, "The .30-30 doesn't have a lot of press about it lately," and I'll throw that one in, too, as underappreciated. Thing is, one weekend this past season at deer camp, out of the 10 guys in camp that week, there were 3 .30-06s, 3 .308s, and 4 .30-30s. I had one, my father had another, one of the local members of the camp (two hours north of where I live) had one, and another member from about 20 miles north of me. Of those four, three were Winchester 94s, the other being a Marlin 336.

A lot of the old levergun cartridges are under-appreciated today.

coyote nose · Post by **coyote nose** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:50 am

22 Long

major · Post by **major** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:44 am

When I was younger I went thru a stage of magnum maddness that seems to always be on the cover of magazines everywhere, the older I got, the more I found myself falling back in love with the old tried and true friend the 30-30 and for the last 15 yrs I've ended up with 4 so far Savage pump,pre-64 94,modern 94, and new mossberg 464 all in 30-30 and looking for a remington 788 bolt action 30-30 in the near future, to complete my collection of 30-30's.......something about the grand ole 30wcf that brings back thoughts of times gone past.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:18 am

I hope that my Uncle leaves me his Savage Pump .30-30...

major · Post by **major** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:22 pm

I got real lucky a few years ago and bought one that was in very good condition with little wear for $140 and I was very surprised at how good it shoots 3/4 to 1 inch groups 100 yards with most factory ammo but it really shows out with winchester 150grain silvertips....very fun to shoot

TNBigBore · Post by **TNBigBore** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:58 pm

I would have to rank the 300 Savage near the top of the list. It will do 99% of what the 308 will do with noticeably less recoil. Yet, if it is ever mentioned in a magazine article it is only as the parent of the 308. It has almost disappeared from the consciousness of the general hunting public. Only true gun nuts seem to know much about it. When you tell someone at a gun show or sporting goods store that you are looking for a rifle in 300 Savage, you either get a blank stare or hear something along the lines of "I bet that one kicks like a mule".

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:04 pm

30-30 I'm guessing

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:06 pm

stretch wrote:The 41 Magnum is a terrific revolver cartridge, but never gets any attention.

The 35 Remington will do 95% of the big game jobs in the lower 48 for 95%
of the rifelmen out there, yet it doesn't get a lot of respect, either. Same
with the 32 Special as some others have noted.

-Stretch

My dad used to call the 41 mag the modern 40-65.
Both are great cartridges, IMHO
Unfortunately, the .41 mag is usually only available at most stores in 210 gr.jacketed and the 40-65 in black powder (nuttin' wrong with that, just me!).
That's why I cast lead and reload them at 240 or 265 gr.

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:59 pm

okdee wrote:Well, I have got to speak up!

No one as mentioned the almight 32 Long Colt! One of the most excellent rounds out of a 92 Marlin lever action you will find.

It needs to be revived!!!! Obsolete they call it. Hogwash! Hey, do you have any you want to get rid of???

Oklahoma Dee

I have one and love it for plinking with a heel based bullet.
I'm still thinking of getting some 32 SW cases to resize to 32 LC. Someone here said that works.
Not meant to hijack the thread, but what powder loads, bullet and case length do you use in the Marlin?

Duff L Bagg · Post by **Duff L Bagg** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:16 pm

The 30-30 has long been maligned by know it all rag writters, and the 7-30 waters has been ignored by all but the Contender shooters in the know, The 356 win was sneared at for not being a 300 yard laser gun, and the 307 was bad mouthed for not having the power of a 308 win and not much more than a 300 savage. Its no wonder that I no longer read the gun rags, I have no intrest in the latest and greatest wiz bang SSmags.
I think that I will keep shooting my under powered, obsolete leverguns till the day I die.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:35 am

7.65x53 Mauser. It should have been our national cartridge in 1892. If so, the 30/40, 30/06, 308, and 300 Savage would never have existed. Even the 30/30 would be a 31/30.

It was in fact widely announced that the 1891 Mauser and 7.65 cartridge had been selected.
If this had been true, the 30/40 would have been a footnote in history.

There would have been no need for the 30/06. Why lengthen a cartridge by a full centimeter for no ballistic advantage?

Likewise the .308, why shorten a cartridge by a mere 2 millimeters?

The Savage action was lengthened for the .308, it could have also been made to accommodate the 7.65.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:27 am

38 Not So Special

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:13 am

I'd have to say the 8X57 is roundly underappreciated by almost everyone, but especially by American ammunition manufacturers, owing to their fear of someone putting a properly loaded round into an old Gew.88 with .318 barrel. How many people do you know who, upon obtaining a nice old Model 98 Mauser in 8X57, rush to their gunsmith to have it rebarreled to some more "useful" caliber? Please tell me what is not useful about a 200-grain .323 Nosler Partition at about 2700.

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:03 pm

308 win/ 7.62 nato and 38/357 mag

brionic · Post by **brionic** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:50 pm

I'm going with .358 Winchester as the most underappreciated. For everything that this round can do well, from varmints to elk, brush to long range, in a short action, with proper rifle bullets in a lever action, it has got to be the hardest commercially produced round to find at retail... I guess it is produced commerically, if you consider ONE commercial seasonsal loading to be "production".

I believe you all are correct regarding .30-30, .22, .44-40, .38-40, "the Bob", etc. But you can find those in any sporting goods store, for the most part, and certainly in a better gun store.

Just try to buy a box of .358 locally and see what I'm talking about.

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:46 pm

6.5x55mm