Spittin' 92's!!
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Spittin' 92's!!
Just because that's the ways things fell together, I've only had Marlin leverguns until recently. I picked up a Rossi '92 copy in .45 Colt a little while ago and since the indoor range I belong to (3.5 miles from home) has a velocity limit of 800 fps (it's a Bullseye pistol club mostly) I loaded up some really light loads to shoot in the '92 until I could get to the outdoor range (35 miles, 4 gallons of gas round trip). I quickly discovered that if these light loads didn't cause the case to seal the chamber, I got a shot of gas and powder in the forehead every shot. No damage done, but annoying. Some old ball powder (HS-5) was the worst. Shooting a heavy bullet (315 grs.) helped considerably.
Seems you cowboy action shooters like the '92 and also like light loads. So what's the secret to light loads without spitting?
Glenn
Seems you cowboy action shooters like the '92 and also like light loads. So what's the secret to light loads without spitting?
Glenn
- Griff
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Annealing case mouths; or... not such light loads.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
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GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: Spittin' 92's!!
I gave up on a 45 colt winchester model 73 same problem fouling back in action, filthy cases and action. Impossible to use Black powder reloads, what a mess.
45 colt a straight case no taper does not seal chamber has blowback. Not a great choice in a rifle.
45 colt a straight case no taper does not seal chamber has blowback. Not a great choice in a rifle.
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
An excellent place to start. With either hard brass or light loads the case can't expand and seal the chamber preventing blowback. As Griff stated, annealing the cases to soften them and/or higher pressure loads should solve the problem.Griff wrote:Annealing case mouths; or... not such light loads.
Old Law Dawg
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
In furtherance to my short answer above, let me elaborate: HS-5 is about #33 on the burn rate chart I use (Reload Bench Burn Rate Chart). May I suggest that faster powders are more likely provide the necessary expansion, even with light charges. I like RedDot (#10) and Clays (#16) for my light cowboy action loads. I've also played around with Titewad (#3) and Bullseye (#6), but... like the slightly higher loading volume that RedDot gives. I also suggest a good heavy roll crimp, fully seated in the crimp groove. I still get a little powder residue, but nothing like the blowback that you're describing. Also, given the rate of fire of some cowboy action shooters, any slower powder is likely to still be burning as the actions is cycled for the next round... I find this is the issue with my BP loads vs. not sealing the chamber. For instance, during accuracy firing, I will shoot, then before opening the action on my '73, I lean over and look thru the spotting scope; then open the action and extract the spent shell. The amount of BP fouling after a bench session is ALWAYS far less than after a stage of action shooting. Now, whether I'm getting a "puff" of smoke outta the chamber when fired, as would be indicative of an inadequately sealed chamber... frankly, I don't know. I haven't observed this, nor has it been pointed out by anyone else that has watched... That could be that no one has paid any attention, I'm certainly focused on other aspects of my shooting. So I tend to discount claims that huge amounts of fouling are proof that .45Colt is an unacceptable caliber in levers. Some I could attribute to variances in chamber sizes (I could simply be lucky and have a tight one), some I also attribute to expectations. I expect a fair amount of fouling from BP loads, having shot BP in muzzle loaders, C&B revolvers and cartridge revolvers. all of which have fouling issues.
Also... and this is just precautionary, you might check the headspace in that rifle. If used, you never know just what some other yahoo used for loadings... and while the Rossi '92 can take some hefty loads, some might overdo it a bit. If new... well, let's just say that assembly on Mondays and Fridays can apply to more than autos!
Also... and this is just precautionary, you might check the headspace in that rifle. If used, you never know just what some other yahoo used for loadings... and while the Rossi '92 can take some hefty loads, some might overdo it a bit. If new... well, let's just say that assembly on Mondays and Fridays can apply to more than autos!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Well said Griff!
Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Thanks for the suggestions guys. The rifle was purchased new, so should be OK. Red Dot did better than HS-5, and is what I like to shoot in the Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt, but these loads were lighter to keep rifle velocities down. Cases were new or once fired Remingon nickel plated, primers WLP. I think I'll just load standard 45 Colt loads and not worry about shooting it indoors. I don't plan to hot-rod this one with the steel butt plate ! I have a 44 Mag. with a rubber butt plate for that.
Glenn
Glenn
- Griff
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Yeah, I'm not crazy about nickel cases, but thought it would be a good way to keep my 44 and 45 cases separate. Oh well.Griff wrote:Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.
Glenn
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Neck size only, more crimp, anneal the brass, use blown out 44-40 brass, heavier bullet, all good advice. Use softer brass like winchester and yes stay away from nickeled. Changing powder and bumping it up some works too.
I believe the primary reason IMR came out with the Trail Boss powder is because of all the problems CAS folks have had with the CAS rifles and down loaded 45lc ammo. Trail Bossi is actually 1/2lb of powder in a 1lb can. This is because it has a lot of filler in it to take up case volume. It looks like little donuts. But it dissapates instantly when ignited. You get a really fast pressure spike to swell the case but not much volume of powder to sustain the pressure so by the time the bullet starts to move the pressure spike has dropped enough that the velocity is low. Just about any powder will do just fine for pistol ammo but because the rifles all have generous chambers to help facilitate cycling ammo through them the down loaded 45's usually don't obtrude or swell the brass enough to seal the chamber so you get those smutty brass cases from the blow-by. If you use a heavy gr bullet and a heavy crimp and bump it up some you probably don’t need TB for your rifle but the folks that use the down loaded 200’s for the rifle Trail boss is the way to go. Once you find a 200 gr load for your rifle using TB you may find it has a bit more recoil in the pistols. But because the pistols generally have tighter chambers another powder like Titegroup will work with less recoil and still seal well in the pistols.
Take a look at the cart. and chamber dimensions below and the notes. the Case can be sized as small as .474. (.480-.006) but notice the chambers. They can be as large as .4902 near the rear( .4862+.004).
I'm not sure why there is such a discrepancy but I think it has to do with the old balloon cases and the larger bullets used in the period. Notice the bullets can be as large as .456. Most folks now days load no bigger than .454's. It's possible the case dimensions shown are for balloon cases. I see no rebated rim like modern brass.
All of these factor make sealing the 45lc rifles a bit of a challenge
I believe the primary reason IMR came out with the Trail Boss powder is because of all the problems CAS folks have had with the CAS rifles and down loaded 45lc ammo. Trail Bossi is actually 1/2lb of powder in a 1lb can. This is because it has a lot of filler in it to take up case volume. It looks like little donuts. But it dissapates instantly when ignited. You get a really fast pressure spike to swell the case but not much volume of powder to sustain the pressure so by the time the bullet starts to move the pressure spike has dropped enough that the velocity is low. Just about any powder will do just fine for pistol ammo but because the rifles all have generous chambers to help facilitate cycling ammo through them the down loaded 45's usually don't obtrude or swell the brass enough to seal the chamber so you get those smutty brass cases from the blow-by. If you use a heavy gr bullet and a heavy crimp and bump it up some you probably don’t need TB for your rifle but the folks that use the down loaded 200’s for the rifle Trail boss is the way to go. Once you find a 200 gr load for your rifle using TB you may find it has a bit more recoil in the pistols. But because the pistols generally have tighter chambers another powder like Titegroup will work with less recoil and still seal well in the pistols.
Take a look at the cart. and chamber dimensions below and the notes. the Case can be sized as small as .474. (.480-.006) but notice the chambers. They can be as large as .4902 near the rear( .4862+.004).
I'm not sure why there is such a discrepancy but I think it has to do with the old balloon cases and the larger bullets used in the period. Notice the bullets can be as large as .456. Most folks now days load no bigger than .454's. It's possible the case dimensions shown are for balloon cases. I see no rebated rim like modern brass.
All of these factor make sealing the 45lc rifles a bit of a challenge
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
A tight roll crimp and a 250 gr. slug will do the job.
You might also try a soft cast bullet, .002" over bore groove diameter for a 200 gr.
If you blow out 44-40 cases you will most likely need a 44-40 shell holder, the 44-40 rim diameter is larger than the 45LC. If you have a tight rifle bolt & extractor you may have extraction case problems by using the 44-40 cases in a 45LC. Try a sample first before loading a few hundred.
Or....... sell it and buy a 44-40, no spitting allowed and you can shoot reduced loads. My CAS 44-40 match loads W/ 200 gr. Desperado 20/1 soft cast bullet & 4.4 gr. of Alliant American Select does about 869 FPS & a SD of 10 out of my Uberti 73 19" carbine & 849FPS with a SD of 29, in 92 Rossi 20 " carbine.
You might also try a soft cast bullet, .002" over bore groove diameter for a 200 gr.
If you blow out 44-40 cases you will most likely need a 44-40 shell holder, the 44-40 rim diameter is larger than the 45LC. If you have a tight rifle bolt & extractor you may have extraction case problems by using the 44-40 cases in a 45LC. Try a sample first before loading a few hundred.
Or....... sell it and buy a 44-40, no spitting allowed and you can shoot reduced loads. My CAS 44-40 match loads W/ 200 gr. Desperado 20/1 soft cast bullet & 4.4 gr. of Alliant American Select does about 869 FPS & a SD of 10 out of my Uberti 73 19" carbine & 849FPS with a SD of 29, in 92 Rossi 20 " carbine.
SASS# 51223
Arizona Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Cowtown Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Uberti 73/44-40 carbine, Rossi 92/44-40,
Marlin 94CB/44 24" Limited, Winchester 94/30-30
Arizona Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Cowtown Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Uberti 73/44-40 carbine, Rossi 92/44-40,
Marlin 94CB/44 24" Limited, Winchester 94/30-30
Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Thanks for all the info Nate! I think most of the bullets I shot were .452", as that's the size they drop from the mould (Lyman 452664). The 315 grain slug was .453",and shot the cleanest, mostly because of the additional weight, I'd guess. I do have some plain brass cases; I should reserve them for the Rossi. I have quite a few powders to choose from now, so don't really want to add more to the shelf. Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot, Tight Group, Rex 0 and 1, WW231, 700X and probably some I've forgotten about. I've heard good things about Trail Boss, so I might have to break down and try some. However, for my "outdoor" loads I will use standard full loads suitable for the SAA, so case sealing probably won't be much of a problem.
Thanks again for all the info!
Glenn
Thanks again for all the info!
Glenn
Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Lefty,
I probably did skimp on the crimp, as I tend to use as little as necessary to extend brass life. I'll firm it up next time. I haven't even slugged the bore yet; guess I ought to.
Glenn
I probably did skimp on the crimp, as I tend to use as little as necessary to extend brass life. I'll firm it up next time. I haven't even slugged the bore yet; guess I ought to.
Glenn
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Is this true across the board or just in certain cases (no pun intended... )? I'm curious because IIRC the .38 Super factory loads I've been shooting are nickle cases and I've been saving them to reload someday.Griff wrote:Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
- Griff
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Yes, I believe it's pretty much the case across the board. Although I have some nickel .38Spl. cases that have been reloaded so much that the nickel is pretty much worn off. But, they've only had light loads in them and they've been used in pistols only.awp101 wrote:Is this true across the board or just in certain cases (no pun intended... )? I'm curious because IIRC the .38 Super factory loads I've been shooting are nickle cases and I've been saving them to reload someday.Griff wrote:Glenn,
Those nickel cases may contribute a little to the issue. They seem to be more brittle than straight brass, thereby suffering from cracked mouths whereas brass doesn't quite as soon.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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- Advanced Levergunner
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- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:13 pm
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Thanks Griff!
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits.
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
-Mark Twain
Proverbs 3:5; Philippians 4:13
Got to have a Jones for this
Jones for that
This running with the Joneses boy
Just ain't where it's at
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- Senior Levergunner
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Re: Spittin' 92's!!
Try using trailboss. I believe you'll get the results you seek.
Hunter Ed. instructor
NRA Basic pistol Inst.
NRA Personal protection inst.
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Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psalm 1
NRA Basic pistol Inst.
NRA Personal protection inst.
NRA Range safety officer
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psalm 1