Taylor's & Co. M1876 .45-60/ PICS

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:35 pm

It's been quite a while since my last post, the subject of which was my [the] new Taylor's & Co M1876 45-60 rifle which I bought about a year and a half ago. To date the rifle has seen approximately 1000-1300 rounds down the tube, those being a 305 gr flat point lead bullet over a duplex powder charge. If anything the rifle shoots and functions better at this moment than the day I bought it; the action is butter smooth and the barrel/bore appears to have 'seasoned' perfectly. Similarly the wood has also nicely seasoned [ worth noting, the original Uberti varnish was completely removed in favor of a traditionally applied Winchester Repeating Arms oil finish, thanks Bill]. Though I don't quite know how many rounds one can reasonably expect to shoot through a 45-60 rifle barrel [ 5,000 ? 10,000 ? More ? ] before accuracy drops off it appears the rifle is just now ' getting comfortable'.
This M1876 has truly become a fine rifle by any measurable standard, and after a couple years of shooting I feel as though I have a glimpse into what it might be in 100+ years. Wish I could be around to shoot it.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:43 pm

Wow that is nice

I really like the way the wood turned out.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:36 pm

Tell us about you duplex handloads, making your brass, etc.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm

What a gorgeous rifle. That wood is outstanding. And it looks like the real bone & charcoal color case hardening. If it isn't, they sure did a good job with the chemicals. Do you know if the CC is the bone & charcoal?

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:07 pm

That is one beautiful rifle and the wood did turn out really nice.

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:36 am

Thanks for the thumbs up guys, I really lucked into this rifle in more ways than one. I bought it in April of 2007 from a Taylor's & Co retailer in Kansas. After looking everywhere for one [ I wasn't interested in the Chaparel version] and coming up empty I found an outfit that had ONE Uberti made M1876 in 45-60 in stock.That was the good news. The bad ?

- it had a 'factory flaw', a 'line' at the very front of the receiver going all the way around [ gulp]
- the retailer didn't have pics of the rifle and wouldn't send any [!? ]
-the retailer would NOT accept a return of the rifle for any reason [ !!? ]

Whoa. How bad do I want this rifle ? After speaking to a helpful sales person and asking at least 50 questions I decided to take a chance. Needless to say when the rifle arrived and inspected it I was overjoyed [ I could find NO factory flaw], particularly by the case colors which looks like bone charcoal to me] and the grain of the butt stock wood, initially obscured by that thick red varnish slathered on all Italian import lever action rifle wood.

The rifle also arrived with some initial extraction problems occurring with several varieties of brass [ Jamison worked ok but just barely ]. I called Taylor's & Co directly and spoke to Tammy, sent the rifle to them to sort out and I had it back in my hands in 48 hrs- and working perfectly ! Apparantly the early run of these rifles all had some chambering/ extraction problems which Taylor to their credit sorted out immediately.
Once the varnish was removed from the wood- bingo. That grain that was only hinted at before came through like gangbusters into what you see in the pics above. From humble beginnings...

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:21 am

JReed wrote:Wow that is nice

I really like the way the wood turned out.

+1

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:18 am

Beautiful rifle to be sure. Is the mag. tube "growing"? I ask because I have had similar issues with repro. 92s. Never had it happen to my Uberti 76 though. Regards, 1886.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:51 am

1886 wrote:Beautiful rifle to be sure. Is the mag. tube "growing"? I ask because I have had similar issues with repro. 92s. Never had it happen to my Uberti 76 though. Regards, 1886.

It appears that way to me, too. I'll bet it could be "cured" by replacing the end cap with a Winchester one that sets in a groove at the barrel end. Of course, a smith would have to install it unless the owner is handy with a fine saw blade.

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:59 am

Guys, when you say ' mag tube growing'- do you mean how it extends out from the barrel almost 1/16" ?
Here's the scoop; the mag tube began to very gradually move forward under recoil and out of its proper place, until one day it just stopped- no more movement.
I was going to get someone to fix it[ not me, I'm definitely NOT good with either my hands or a saw] but when it stopped where you see it now I just sort of forgot about it.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:09 am

That is the best 76 repro i have seen to date...
Great job on the wood....

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:42 am

RIHMFIRE wrote:That is the best 76 repro i have seen to date...
Great job on the wood....

Thanks Rimfire, take a look at the 2nd picture above taken prior to removing the varnish-- notice how thick it is ? In my view most if not all of the wood on the Italian rifles would IMHO be greatly improved by getting rid of that varnish.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:27 pm

Stunning, simply stunning!!!

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:58 pm

That mag. tube has "grown". It is caused by the weight of the cartridges pushing the tube forward under recoil. If is is no longer growing, it feeds /functions properly and it does not bother you..... I guess all is well. Very pretty. 1886.

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:24 pm

As a charter member of the Never Leaving Well Enough Alone club I tapped it back into place with a rubber mallet. The fit of the tube is snug and dosen't feel as though it's going anywhere. There's a cross pin that's supposed to hold the mag tube firmly in place once properly seated. The pin is still there but obviously not working 100%. I suppose I could send the rifle back to Taylor's for a fix but I probably won't. Not worth risking travel damage or loss and who knows, maybe this time it'll stay put.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:32 pm

NEAT!

Thanks for posting. Lots of folks would be interested in the details of your handloading the ammo for this rifle.

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:14 pm

First a disclaimer; duplex loads are a good way to blow your gun up. If not packed perfectly tight and handled with extreme care, the smokeless can mix with the blackpowder and cause extremely erratic pressures even to the point of catastrophic firearm failure. Proper compression is key ! Enough said.

I trim .45-70 cases to a length of 1.89" and then thin the rim to .058 to .060. For straight BP I load 60 gr of 2-F for a velocity of 1310 w/ the RCBS 330 bullet. For duplex I modify this w/ 10% 4759 under the black, reducing the BP by 10%. Slightly higher pressure & velocity than straight black but a whole lot cleaner. A card wad and 1/8" grease wad under the bullet helps a lot too. For even cleaner burnimg use FFFg instead of FFg.

Be prepared to do a lot of trial and error until you find what works best for you. Big heavy bullets cast from 20:1 or 30:1 lead/tin usually work well, I'm experimenting now using 405 gr bullets in BOTH my 45-70 and 45-60 loads [ in an effort to use one bullet in both rifles]. Early indications are very promising.
Though the pic below is marked 5 but its actually 6-shots fired.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:50 pm

DANG she's purty...

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:29 pm

Close up of trigger and lever case color,note the Marbles tang peep sight which I am VERY much looking to replace.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:39 pm

Why do you want to replace the Marbles tang sight? Are you looking at a Riflesmith sight?

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:42 pm

Hobie wrote:Why do you want to replace the Marbles tang sight? Are you looking at a Riflesmith sight?

Maybe I just got a lemon but this one hasn't worked out for me at al. First, the sight stem is loose- really loose and it can't be tightened. Second it's all but unusable on the tang of the rifle, not anywhere near enough elevation to be useful even at 300 yds. Lastly, I bought it for the windage adjustment- which is also useless and not working as advertised.

I have a Riflesmith tang sight on my Sharps rifle which is excellent, even after years of adjustment and shots fired. All I want for the '76 is a simple ladder or peep sight which will be useful out to 300 yds, the limit of my freehand shooting with iron sights [ and old eyes] anyway.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:36 pm

If your mag tube grows again, you could drill out one size larger hole and stick in a one size larger pin. I'm sure that would solve the problem.

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:10 am

I too have a Taylor's 1876 in .45-60.

I installed a Marble's tang sight and experienced the same problem of not being able to get enough range. I cured it by buying an extra-tall stem from Buffalo Arms ($6) and installing it in the Marble's sight. I can now shoot out to 350 meters.

I am a fan of the windage-adjustable Marble's sight, but they can be a problem at times. They are fairly simple to work on. Loose, floppy stems can be repaired by removing the stem, then removing the square, peaked spring in the bottom of the base that holds the stem upright. Simply pinch the spring a bit in a vice, or even tap the edge with a small hammer to increase the spring's heighth and therefore it will increase pressure on the base of the stem.

Here are links to a couple of previous posts about my rifle and about Marble's sights:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=8780

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... f=1&t=4102

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:25 pm

An option to control the magazine tube movement is to get a longer magazine plug screw (Winchester M. 71?) that passes through the plug, and counter drill the correct size hole in the bottom of the barrel. About 3/32" will do. Then cut the screw to length to just tighten on the plug at the bottom. The tube will not move then.

Mokwaw · Post by **Mokwaw** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:06 am

Very nice rifle. While I was in Illinois last week for Christmas vacation, I hooked up with one of my old shooting buddies. He stumbled onto a rifle just like this except for the tang sight. It was in almost as good condition, funny thing was it had the name Winchester on the barrel, the serial number put it as made in 1880. Knowing how frugile he is I asked if he paid $2500.00 for it, he gave me a thumbs down and said " lot less". I didn't get a chance to shoot it due to time, but next time I go down I hope to get a whack at it.

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:33 am

Mokwaw wrote:Very nice rifle. While I was in Illinois last week for Christmas vacation, I hooked up with one of my old shooting buddies. He stumbled onto a rifle just like this except for the tang sight. It was in almost as good condition, funny thing was it had the name Winchester on the barrel, the serial number put it as made in 1880. Knowing how frugile he is I asked if he paid $2500.00 for it, he gave me a thumbs down and said " lot less". I didn't get a chance to shoot it due to time, but next time I go down I hope to get a whack at it.

Wa-a-i-i-t-t a minute- are you saying an original Winchester M1876 made in 1880 ? That sounds a lot like a rifle I misplaced a while back, in fact now that I think of it I'm sure the rifle your buddy stumbled onto is mine. Whew, what a relief ! I was just this morning wondering where I, you know, left it. If you would please tell your buddy to, you know, just sorta send it along to me and I'll, uh, you know, put it back where I uh, you know, left it. A long time ago.

By the way---Merry Christmas to everyone, and a, you know, Happy New Year !

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:20 pm

dang it you guys.....
I have come back to this post a few times....
and this means trouble for my wallet.....again...

Mokwaw · Post by **Mokwaw** » Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:50 pm

Wa-a-i-i-t-t a minute- are you saying an original Winchester M1876 made in 1880 ? That sounds a lot like a rifle I misplaced a while back, in fact now that I think of it I'm sure the rifle your buddy stumbled onto is mine. Whew, what a relief ! I was just this morning wondering where I, you know, left it. If you would please tell your buddy to, you know, just sorta send it along to me and I'll, uh, you know, put it back where I uh, you know, left it. A long time ago.

By the way---Merry Christmas to everyone, and a, you know, Happy New Year !

Yep, that's what I'm saying. The stumbling part was, someone called him to see if he was interested in buying some "old pistols" and the fellow had the 1876, guess there is a 92 he is going back to check out too, but he didn't say what caliber it was, or possible condition. Funny thing was he forgot all about the pistols, when the Winnie came out of the closet.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:43 am

Mokwaw wrote:..., the serial number put it as made in 1880. Knowing how frugile he is I asked if he paid $2500.00 for it, he gave me a thumbs down and said " lot less".

An original Winchester 1876 in shooting condition for $2,500 is a dad-gummed good deal. One for a 'lot less' is the kind of deal that I might accidentally rip the back pocket right off my jeans in my haste to get my wallet out.

S.B. · Post by **S.B.** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:04 am

Very nice iron, congratulations on your rifle.
Steve

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:17 am

Congrats-high on the drool factor-

!

kb466 · Post by **kb466** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:45 pm

Hey Jon,
I just stumbled on this post. I have to say that your rifle and the wood looks even better than I remembered it. I am glad to hear that it is receiving some good use and performing well.
Bill M.

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:09 pm

kb466 wrote:Hey Jon,
I just stumbled on this post. I have to say that your rifle and the wood looks even better than I remembered it. I am glad to hear that it is receiving some good use and performing well.
Bill M.

Greetings Bill !
Have I mentioned, I LOVE THIS RIFLE. Now that i've been shooting it for a while I can't imagine being without it. I still haven't solved the issue of which tang sight to go with though as all I want is something to assit shooting to 300 yds max. I'm good to 100 yds but can't reliably hit the steel gong @ 200 yds+ with standard sights.
The old eyes just aren't what they used to be.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:09 am

that is just beautiful!

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:23 am

I have the same "mag tube growing" problem on my Uberti 1873 in 357Mag, when I stripped it down it was obvious that the groove where the cross pin locates it is worn, likely as said above by the weight of the rounds in the tube and recoil. It does not seem to be getting any worse and short of major surgery or a new tube I cannot see any way of fixing it.

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:51 am

Borregos wrote:I have the same "mag tube growing" problem on my Uberti 1873 in 357Mag, when I stripped it down it was obvious that the groove where the cross pin locates it is worn, likely as said above by the weight of the rounds in the tube and recoil. It does not seem to be getting any worse and short of major surgery or a new tube I cannot see any way of fixing it.

Yea, mine 'walked' out almost 1/16" but hasn't moved a spec beyond that. now that I think of it I've seen original Winchester rifles with the same issue- a design shortcoming ?

Me, I'm content to ignore the anomaly so long as it's stopped moving [ it has] since I can't really come up with a reasonable fix either.

Mike Hunter · Post by **Mike Hunter** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:41 am

A reasonable fix for the mag tube walking would be to solve it the same as Winchester did. Mag plug with a lip that fits into the barrel.

Mike

Electric Factory · Post by **Electric Factory** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:22 pm

Mike Hunter wrote:A reasonable fix for the mag tube walking would be to solve it the same as Winchester did. Mag plug with a lip that fits into the barrel.

Mike

Hey Mike,
Is there any way you could post a pic or pic illustration of what you mean ?

Mike Hunter · Post by **Mike Hunter** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:22 pm

On the early 1873s, 1876s, and 1886s , Winchester used a Magazine plug with a lip, the lip rotated into a slit on the underside of the barrel. The slit in the bbl was about .065-.070 deep…… if I remember correctly, about .010 wider than the lip on the plug, with radius same as the mag plug.

I do it on a Bridgeport mill, with a right angle milling attachment and a custom ground keyway cutter,

Actually I need to make the cut in a couple of 76 BBLs I’m finishing up tonite,

That and a proper sized mag ring pin will keep the tube from moving.

Mike

kb466 · Post by **kb466** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:48 pm

Hi Jon,
Mike Hunter is right about the lip that fits into the cut on the bottom of the barrel. In addition to the originals, the Chaparral has this arrangement. You might want to contact Chaparral and see about buying one of their magazine plugs. As I recall from working on your 1876 wood (or maybe looking at another Uberti 1876), your magazine plug screws into the front of the tube, while the Chaparral just fits in then is held in place with a set screw into the plug through a hole in the tube. I would guess that your tube could be altered to this arrangement. Like Mike Hunter said, you will also have to cut a slot on the underside of your barrel. However, when done, it will be closer to original, and your problem of the "wandering magazine tube should be solved.

I am really pleased to hear that you are happily shooting your rifle. I have been busy building some muzzleloaders, but now I am going back to working on my lever actions, including that Chaparral 1876 I bought some time ago. It is going to take a lot of work to get it to the point I will be happy with it, but I think I will enjoy doing it. It does seem to have an extremely accurate barrel.
Bill M.