OT Need Help With '51 Navy BP Load

[JJ_Miller]

Would anyone want to opine as to the type of bullet loaded in Wild Bill's '51 Navy when he made the 75 yrd shot across the town square, round ball or conical ?

I have acquired a genuine Colt '51 Navy . It came with a mould for both round and conical bullets. I wonder which would have been more prevalent in the West at that time. I would think that since Wild Bill shot his pistols every morning he was buying bullets from a gun store, so he would have had the choice.

I want to try to replicate the shot he made just to see how hard it would be. Any input is appreciated........................................JJ

[JimT]

My experience has been that the round ball is more accurate and kills better than the conical. The old-timers I knew who used them felt the same way. I can't say what Mr. Hickok used.

The old square is now part of the street in Springfield. There are two small brass markers in the street, easy to miss. One marks where Mr. Tutt fell. The other where Mr. Hickok stood.

[O.S.O.K.]

I'm betting that he filled the cylinder and then seated the ball down onto it. FFG. I would suggest 25 grains under a wonder wad and hornady round ball.

[JerryB]

Jim, that would sure be a site to see. Next time we go to Springfield we will try to find it. I have read about the fight in several different accounts.

[Pisgah]

Loading for best accuracy is usually not too hard with a C&B revolver. It is my belief that a good, tight ball/chamber fit is probably the single most important factor. I like the ball sized so that a thin ring of lead is shaved from each ball as it is loaded. Lubed wads seem to help in some guns, but most often I've ended up leaving out the wad and seating the ball on a full load of powder -- enough so that when compressed it will just allow the ball to be fully seated below the cylinder mouth. I lubricate fairly liberally -- not sloppy, but plenty -- using either Bore Butter (smells nice) or plain ol' Crisco ("Butter Flavor" gives a unique olfactory experience).

[Paul Jenkins]

I believe Hickok used a pair of .36 cal. '51's. The most accurate load I've found for 25 yds. is 15gr 3f and crisco over the .38 ball. Can you get 25 grs powder and a ball in a .36?

[JJ_Miller]

Thanks guys.....I'll give 'er a try.

Good to hear from you Jim, I've been moving and we are in the new house. When I find my little black book I'll give you a call..............JJ

[Malamute]

"Can you get 25 grs powder and a ball in a .36?"



I believe you can get 30 grains, or very close to it, in the chamber with a round ball. That's the only load I've used in mine, whatever fills the chamber and gives room to barely seat the ball. After droppng the charge in, it looks like the ball wont fit,..but it will when you tune your measure just right. That was the basic idea in Keiths book "Sixguns", a "full charge", so that's what I've used. Seems to shoot pretty good.

[gamekeeper]

I tried my Uberti Navy at 75 yards a couple of times, I always used a full load under a round ball. I was too embarrassed by my lack of marksmanship to repeat it in front of witnesses!

[O.S.O.K.]

The sights on these old thumbusters are crude to say the least. That, along with the long hammer drop and tendency to be finicky about powder can make them quite the challenge to shoot.

My 36 Uberti is a sweatheart. Well, it is now - when I first got it, it would fail to bust the caps about 1/2 the time - very frustrating. I solved this with some polishing and spring work. I can produce 3"-4" 25 yard groups supported (resting my forearms on a bag). That's with 25 grains of Pyrodex. Most find that 25 grains is an accurate load with ffg or Pyrodex P.

And I use the wonderwads and no grease over the ball.



Here you can see the mod that I made to increase spring tension (the screw between the spring and frame):

[C. Cash]

Did this occur during the time that he had his 51 Navy's or before? I believe early on he used a Belgian Pinfire revolver, and thought that I have heard reports that he used a larger Dragoon pistol in the Tutt shooting, before he began toting the famous Navy Colts. Could be wrong. I've never looked into Hickock so am uncertain on this. I've heard the same thing...that Cavalrymen North and South regarded the ball as the better killer/stopper at close range.

Edit: it looks like the Tutt shooting happened in 1865, and he was presented with the pair of Navies in 1869? Maybe an earlier Colt 51 Navy, or the Dragoon 44. I guess caliber is academic in terms of recreation your shot....but the added weight of the Dragoon might be of help in terms of accuracy. Probably not much practical difference between the two.

[BruceB]

I tried my Uberti Navy at 75 yards a couple of times, I always used a full load under a round ball. I was too embarrassed by my lack of marksmanship to repeat it in front of witnesses!

Could very well be that Mr. Hickok didn't hit his point of aim either. While he hit Mr. Tutt in the heart, it may have been a lucky shot. History doesn't record where exactly Mr. Hickok was aiming.

OP: For BP handguns I suggest you ask Santa for a copy of Percussion Pistols And Revolvers: History, Performance and Practical Use by Mike Cumpston. It's available from Amazon in hardback and paperback. It is an excellent book on the subject.

[BruceB]

O.S.O.K. , who made the CSA holster?

[KCSO]

First of all the origainl 1851 had a quality gain twist barrel. Check the twist in your 1851 and if it is a 1-48 twist as some are you can't and won't duplicate any precision shooting. A 1-20 or so twist will work well with round balll and a 1-16 is better for conicals. Conicals were not popular as they were hard to seat straight and the pointytips made them wounders. The brass mould you got with the gun is basicly worthless as the ballls and the conical are cast undersize. You need a 380 balll for best accuracy. With a 1-20 twist barrel and round balls a good tuned 1851 wil shoot under 2" at 25 yards. If I remember right Wild Bills navies had the sights altered to a dovetailed blade and they would have been better shooting than a bead sight. The last Navy I had was relined to 1-20 twist and had the trigger set at 2 1/2 pounds. the front sight was a dovetailed silver blade set for windage and filed for elevation to dead on at 25 yards. My off hand scores ran between 85 and 90 on the standard pistol target shooting offhand and that is about as well as I can do with myy old eyes and shakey hands.

[O.S.O.K.]

O.S.O.K. , who made the CSA holster?

Believe it or not - Cabelas.

The other ones I have are unmarked and black from Dixie Gun Works.

[Tennessee Hayre]

Wild Bill did not use a 1851 Navy Colt to kill Tutt. The folks who write the history about those things all agree he used a .44 Dragoon.

[AmBraCol]

OP: For BP handguns I suggest you ask Santa for a copy of Percussion Pistols And Revolvers: History, Performance and Practical Use by Mike Cumpston. It's available from Amazon in hardback and paperback. It is an excellent book on the subject.

I second that motion. I thoroughly enjoyed my autographed copy. Need to dig it out and re-read it. Cumpston is a very knowledgeable guy when it comes to firearms in general. I love watching him on the line at the CSA gatherings. He'll pick up some sixgun and proceed to unload it in a systematic manner, nice and deliberate. Anyway, the book's a great resource and a bit more up to date with available materials, guns and techniques than Elmer Keith's section in Sixguns. Back then he was limited to shooting the surviving examples of original black powder guns. Cumpston examines most of the current crop of reproductions as well.

[JimT]

Wild Bill did not use a 1851 Navy Colt to kill Tutt. The folks who write the history about those things all agree he used a .44 Dragoon.

True. Eugene Cunningham who interviewed old-time gunfighters and folks who lived in that era wrote in 1941 (TRIGGERNOMETRY) that Mr. Hickok had a "dragoon Colt" in his hand and after Mr. Tutt fired at him, he laid it on his left arm to steady it and shot Mr. Tutt through the heart. (pages 260 - 261)

[Hobie]

I have done a bit of shooting of my repro Remington NMA at 100 yards and I submit that it was a bit of luck as well as skill. One can easily put 5 of 5 on the torso of a US Army E type silhouette target but to consistently shoot closely enough in the chest to count on a heart shot is unlikely. I think Mr. Hickcock would have shot Mr. Tutt more but didn't need to and he also saw no need to point out the luck involved.

[JimT]

My old copy of the Remington .44 would consistantly shoot into 2" to 2 1/2" at 25 yards... with 3 out of 5 often going around 1". The original Remington's had a gain-twist bore and were extremely accurate. The Colts were not as finely built but were better combat guns. You could shoot them a lot longer without them tying up from fouling.

This is an article I wrote about 10 or 12 years ago ....

44 Cap & Ball Revolver

In 1863 Remington introduced what was to become the major competitor of the Colt 1860 Army Model, the Remington 1861 Army Revolver. These carry the patent date of December 17, 1861 and distinguished from the later models by a lack of safety notches on the rear of the cylinder and by a channel cut along the top of the loading lever. In combat this feature proved undesirable and the New Model (introduced in 1863) did not have it. The New Model carries the patent date of Sept. 14, 1858 and is marked "New Model". It has the safety notches between the nipples on the rear of the cylinder. This allowed the shooter to load all 6 chambers and then lower the hammer between the nipples for safe carry. The New Model was produced until 1875. It was the last of Remington's percussion revolvers.

My Dad had a number of them. The first was a "wallhanger" that had been plowed up by a neighbor. When he was 16 he went to Spokane and purchased a Remington .44 New Model and an 1860 Army Colt. The Remington proved much more accurate than the Colt. However it would also tie up from powder fouling quicker than the Colt. The Colt on the other hand had a problem with fired caps falling off into the rather large open area at the rear of the cylinder when the hammer is pulled to full-cock. A fired cap falling into there bound up the action. The Remington with its closed frame did not have that problem. Many oldtime gunmen would throw the Colt up nearly vertical while cocking the hammer. This had the effect of tossing any loose caps to the rear and kept them from dropping into the gun.

After WW II Dad bought a shipment of Remington .44's from the noted collector and author James Serven. These were all rejects as collector items having poor finishes and in need of mechanical repairs. Dad says he paid $10 each for load of them. He rebuilt some, remodeled others and then put them up for sale. Some were converted to .22 rimfire. Quite a few were cut to 6 1/2" barrel lengths from the original 8" length. Target sights were installed and the guns were sold to target shooters. At least one was converted to .357 Magnum. How it worked out I don't know.

In 1970 I decided I wanted a Remington .44 cap & ball sixgun. By then you could not touch an original Remington for $100 let alone $10 as Dad had done. I eventually bought an Italian-made replica that was imported by Hawes. Two things I immediately found to different from the originals. ONE: the bore was .445" instead of .452" as on the original. TWO: the rifling of the Italian-made gun was a straight twist instead of gain twist as in the Remingtons. And while it was a fun gun to shoot it did not live up to my expectations either as to power or accuracy.

In order to improve it I set about doing some modifications. The first was a decent set of sights. I silver-soldered a Smith & Wesson target front sight onto the barrel and then cut the shallow rear notch so that it became a nice square rather than the "V" as on the original. Good sights helped a lot. Measuring the chambers I found them to be extra tight, shrinking the ball a lot before it was even fired. The barrel proved to be tight at the throat and loose at the muzzle. I started with barrel, screwing it out of the frame and reaming a long, tapered throat in it. The "throat" was about 3" long, tapering from .456" down to .445". I reamed the chambers so I cold seat a .457" diameter ball in them.

The results were more along the lines of what I had hoped for. Velocity increased and accuracy improved. Your hands and ears could tell the difference. Before the change the gun would BOOM when it when off. Afterwards, a full load would CRACK. Shrinking the ball .011" really increased the efficiency of the powder. Apparent recoil was heavier also, although the cap & ball guns never really kicked like the big-bore cartridge guns do.

I experimented some with both 2Fg and 3Fg black powder as well as with Pyrodex. Pyrodex gave the 2nd highest velocities. The highest velocity was recorded using a Duplex load of 5 gr. 3Fg Black and a cylinder-full of Pyrodex on top of it with a ball compressed tightly onto it. You are on your own if you try this. I am not suggesting that you do so. This is for information purposes only. If you blow up your gun do not try to say I told you you could do it! One thing I did find out. Use too much Black powder with the Pyrodex and the hammer would blow back to full cock- while the ball was exiting the barrel. It was kind of hard on the lockwork. If you build too much pressure; not only does the hammer blow back, the top of the gun can depart to regions unknown.

The oldtimers who carried these guns in war and for self-defense were not in any way under-armed. They have a lot more power than one would think if they had not used one. I once saw a man shot with an 1860 Army .44. The ball took him in the lower stomach and went clean through. It bounced off the kitchen table, went through a cupboard door and stopped in a loaf of bread where we found it later. Then man dropped immediately. They got him to the hospital in time to save him but he was down for a long time. I do not know if he ever fully recovered.

One Javelina season I took my old .44 Remington-copy after the little pigs. I hunted the canyons until I spotted a herd, made a 300-yard stalk and got to within 30- 40 yards. One large pig was scratching his rear on a rock outcropping and was mostly sideways to me. I lined up the sights behind the right front shoulder and touched it off. Peering through the large cloud of smoke in front of me I could make out the pig, laying on the ground kicking. The ball had taken him behind the right shoulder, ranging forward and exiting the left side of the neck behind the ear. An instant "lights out". It was a fitting use of the fine old .44 cap & ball sixgun.

Some of the imports now have the gain-twist rifling of the originals. These are target-grade guns and you will pay accordingly. Very fine accuracy can be had with these. Seems we have come full circle. The Remington was popular in its day. It grew old and was almost forgotten. Then it was revived. I'm kind of glad. It is a pretty good old gun.

Chronographed velocities at 7 feet from muzzle to first screen

.445" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg ..........................951 fps

.456" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg............................992 fps
38 gr. 3Fg..........................1036 fps
full load of Pyrodex P.........1087 fps
.

[JJ_Miller]

Well, you guys just made my wife happy. Now I need to find a Colts Dragoon . I have no real reason for trying to re-create this shot. As we were moving to the new house I came across some notes I had taken over the years as a member of our Dept. Shooting Review Board. I was thinking over some of these incidents and law enforcement never really changes. Oh the gear certainly does but it seems that if all else is equal its the man behind the gun that determines who comes out on top. My notes ranged from the 147gn 357 Mag Silvertip in Smith 686's to 180 Gold Dot 40 Cal's in Smith 4006's to 230gn Gold Dots in 45 ACP.

Some were funny ( as LEO's can attest to ) and many were tragic but all were interesting....................JJ

[greenacres]

KCSO

Who did you have tune up the gun and reline the barrel? I'm thinking about maybe having one done.

[awp101]

Wild Bill did not use a 1851 Navy Colt to kill Tutt. The folks who write the history about those things all agree he used a .44 Dragoon.

True. Eugene Cunningham who interviewed old-time gunfighters and folks who lived in that era wrote in 1941 (TRIGGERNOMETRY) that Mr. Hickok had a "dragoon Colt" in his hand and after Mr. Tutt fired at him, he laid it on his left arm to steady it and shot Mr. Tutt through the heart. (pages 260 - 261)

You sparked my memory...I've had that book 12-15 years but never read it. Found it on close out at B&N or somesuch and picked it up.

Looks like I know what I'm reading next!

[steveb]

Interesting read Jim. Thanks for posting that. I wonder if the new Ubertis have the gain twist rifling?

[steveb]

Also can anyone tell me the difference between the straight and gain twist rifling? Thanks...Steve.

[JimT]

"Gain Twist" rifling does just that .. it gains twist the further down the barrel you go.

The old Remington's started out with something like a 1 turn in 80 inches and ended about twice that fast if I remember correctly.

The idea was to start the rotation gently and then speed it up as it goes down the bore. The bullet does not "skid" in the rifling.

Think of the bullet acceleration building from the chamber to the bore in a revolver. In a modern high pressure cartridge it may be doing 900 fps or so by the time it hits the rifling and suddenly has to start turning at 1 in 16". The forces are enormous.

Have that same bullet hit basically straight rifling, engrave fully and then start turning faster and faster until it exits the bore at 1 in 16".

The concept has been applied successfully to rifles as well as handguns.

[JJ_Miller]

Well now my test has been stolen . In the Winter issue of Guns of the Old West I found a write up of this very incident, the Hickok-Tutt shootout. It seems Dennis Adler wrote a story in which he re-created the shooting. He used a replica '51 Navy from The American Historical Foundation, about $2000 worth of replica. He went on to explain why it would have been a '51 Navy. He cited his sources as Joseph G. Rosa who wrote a book called the collected works on Wild Bill Hickok and Age of the Gunfighter, 1995 University of Oklahoma Press.

Now I admit I have NO idea which revolver was used. What do you think JimT ? I have not read this Rosas book. "51 Navy or Dragoon ?..........................JJ

[Tennessee Hayre]

You can read about Wild Bill in (Legends Of America). Bill kill Tutt with a Dragoon .44 Cal, and Look at the photo of wild Bill in his Prince Albert Coat. His pistols have wooden grips, and note the photo was taken in 1867. Also He kill (P.Coe) in 1860 with 1860 Army colts which make sense because bill served in the army and would have probley been issued military style weapons. The Army used weapons that could bring down a horse. Thats why the soldiers all were issued .44 and .45 cal style weapons. It is also noted on another site that Senator Henery Wilson of Massachusetts presented Bill the 2 Ivory handle 1851 Colts in 1869. But still would swap them out for a .44 cal when trouble was expected as stated by Wyatt Earp and others. I believe he only carried the 1851 navy's for the last 7 years of his life. 1869 - 1876.