POLL - Should Posters in Classifieds Have Min # of Posts?

[Hobie]

I've been approached about this. Several form members are concerned about "hit and run" sellers on the classifieds. Folks with one or two posts who list something for sale but are unknown to anyone on the board. There is one such that posted today, first post was a classified and implying that you HAD to call tonight. I ran the given phone number and the seller is supposedly in FL but he didn't tell us that (per the forum rules). I've been pretty nice about editing the topic titles and simply deleting disallowed comments but failure to adhere (or even read) the sticky on the very simple rules is getting tiresome. However, I might be too sensitive. I HATE being sensitive. So, I thought I'd ask y'all.

#1 - Should posters have a minimum number of posts to post in the classifieds?
#2 - What should the minimum be? Post that number in your response. An explanation might be helpful. If you are a moderator elsewhere (and several here are) your experiences in the matter will be appreciated. If you want to keep any comment on the QT to avoid conflict with any individual, that's fine, just PM me.

FWIW, many other forums do have a minimum qualifying number of posts to post in the classifieds. It is often 25 (which seems common but arbitrary).

[Tycer]

Buyer Beware rules apply whenever purchasing online. I saw that post today and saw only one post and passed passed passed. I would have bought it in seconds had I known the poster. I suppose if I didn't know the guy and he had 25 posts, I could go review his posts and I could decide whether he's a good guy or not.

[86er]

A number of post means nothing. Heck they could be all "Nice Going" posts. My newpaper doesn't require me to write a column to run a classified (yeah I know they charge for it). A valid direct e-mail, the PM set up and a phone number either posted or upon request is good. If I wanted to sell a double rifle I'd post it here and on a double rifle forum. I am not a member of any other forum but I hope they'd let me sell them a good rifle at a good price on their forum - especially being a relevant item to them.

What I would prefer is some type of fee payable to Paco or the moderators to be used to pay the bills on this site. Most of you know I run several auctions every year in order to send Paco enough to pay the bills. Maybe something like "If your item sells, on your honor and on your own send Paco $10 to fund the site". That would be worth it to me AND we could get the seller to show proof of payment, even if they reduce the price $10 for the buyer to send it in if they somehow don't know their way around here. ANY fee will discourage the fly-by-nights in the classifieds, but it will not deter I genuine seller.

I'm sure there are comments coming ....

[Hobie]

A number of post means nothing. Heck they could be all "Nice Going" posts. My newpaper doesn't require me to write a column to run a classified (yeah I know they charge for it). A valid direct e-mail, the PM set up and a phone number either posted or upon request is good. If I wanted to sell a double rifle I'd post it here and on a double rifle forum. I am not a member of any other forum but I hope they'd let me sell them a good rifle at a good price on their forum - especially being a relevant item to them.

What I would prefer is some type of fee payable to Paco or the moderators to be used to pay the bills on this site. Most of you know I run several auctions every year in order to send Paco enough to pay the bills. Maybe something like "If your item sells, on your honor and on your own send Paco $10 to fund the site". That would be worth it to me AND we could get the seller to show proof of payment, even if they reduce the price $10 for the buyer to send it in if they somehow don't know their way around here. ANY fee will discourage the fly-by-nights in the classifieds, but it will not deter I genuine seller.

I'm sure there are comments coming ....

I think you've mentioned the fee idea before. I think we're trying to avoid that for some reason I've forgotten but it does seem reasonable. You're right that the # of posts means little as to reliability. We had one poster (long gone) who would have easily met the minimum several times over who really put one over on a buyer. I have bought here from several folks with no idea of who they really were and with perfect satisfaction and one with a huge delay in shipping (who quit posting).

This is why I opened this topic for discussion!
HOBBIE ...THE RULE FOR YOU AND I OR PAUL TO REMOVE ANY POST IS STILL VIABLE... THE FEE IDEA IS A GOOD ONE BUT DIFFICULT TO KEEP HONORED
AND I WOULDN'T WANT ANY COMMERCIAL ON GOING USE OF THE SITE... THIS IS FOR THE MEMBERS, IT'S THEIR SITE.... SO IF WE CATCH SOME COMMERCIAL MOVEMENT OF THE SITE ..THEY ARE TO BE BLOCKED FROM FUTURE USE. PACO

[Old Savage]

I have bought a couple of times from posters here and it has worked out well - you do get a chance to judge folks who are here a while. I wouldn't be so anxious to deal with someone brandy new. Most here seem to go to lengths to picture or describe any defect.

[pharmseller]

A number of post means nothing. Heck they could be all "Nice Going" posts. My newpaper doesn't require me to write a column to run a classified (yeah I know they charge for it). A valid direct e-mail, the PM set up and a phone number either posted or upon request is good. If I wanted to sell a double rifle I'd post it here and on a double rifle forum. I am not a member of any other forum but I hope they'd let me sell them a good rifle at a good price on their forum - especially being a relevant item to them.

What I would prefer is some type of fee payable to Paco or the moderators to be used to pay the bills on this site. Most of you know I run several auctions every year in order to send Paco enough to pay the bills. Maybe something like "If your item sells, on your honor and on your own send Paco $10 to fund the site". That would be worth it to me AND we could get the seller to show proof of payment, even if they reduce the price $10 for the buyer to send it in if they somehow don't know their way around here. ANY fee will discourage the fly-by-nights in the classifieds, but it will not deter I genuine seller.

I'm sure there are comments coming ....

+1.
FWIW, I bought a rifle from some guy on this board...Victor something. A shady character, no doubt. I'm lucky it turned out okay, despite my initial reservations...

HA! Just joking. Caveat emptor, always. I won't buy from you if I don't trust you OR if there is no way to recover my money if the transaction goes south.
BTW, why do we always pick on south?

P

[Grizz]

Hobie

I like the idea of vetting the sellers. Lots of us have known one another for years. I've purchased guns from members and glad of it. I also distrust the fly-bys. Eventually people show themselves for what they are, maybe we can promote the idea that character counts.... there are lots of places to make quick sales, this forum doesn't necessarily have to be one of them, eh?

this isn't to slam anyone of character who is unfamiliar to us who has something for sale, it's just a cautionary tale and this is a much better arena for business dealings than craigslist. hopeufully it will stay that way.

[AJMD429]

I like the idea of a fee, if it can be constructed so that the forum and organizers are NOT "liable" for anything sold or whatever. I'm sure there's some legal-eze way to distance the fee, even if it is just a "higher class of membership" with "extra priveleges" which might happen to include making New Posts in the Classified section.

I usually query the seller a bit, and in the mean time check them out on this forum and elsewhere if possible. It is a risk you take, buying online, but I've had nothing but positive experiences with exchanges involving other forum members so far.

[Bullard4075]

I like the idea of buyer beware. If I was to buy I would check out the persons history on the forum for myself.

I like the idea of smaller government. I don't need government (that would be you Hobie in this case )
protecting me.

Thanks for the thought though.

PS: I didn't vote because I didn't like the selection . There should be a simple NO choice.

[Hobie]

I don't need government (that would be you Hobie in this case )
protecting me.

And I don't really want the responsibility! Then again, I don't have a problem with banning posters who rip people off. As I said, we've had ONE that I know of since 2003.

[jhrosier]

Hobie,
I don't like that we should need the minumum posts requirement, but I do think that it is a good idea.
It helps folks get a feel for what sort of person they might be dealing with.
I would go with 20 posts and 30 days minimum membership to eliminate the hit-and-runs.
By rights, this should apply to both buying and selling.

I would also suggest replacing a disallowed comment with a reminder to read the rules stickey.
This would serve as a reminder both to the poster and all readers.

In case nobody mentioned it lately, thanks for your work keeping the forum running smoothly.

Jack

[Hobie]

Hobie,
I don't like that we should need the minimum posts requirement, but I do think that it is a good idea.
It helps folks get a feel for what sort of person they might be dealing with.
I would go with 20 posts and 30 days minimum membership to eliminate the hit-and-runs.
By rights, this should apply to both buying and selling.

I would also suggest replacing a disallowed comment with a reminder to read the rules stickey.
This would serve as a reminder both to the poster and all readers.

In case nobody mentioned it lately, thanks for your work keeping the forum running smoothly.

Jack

Jack,

How would I be able to enforce a standard on buyers (who don't post in the forum)? A buyer, even one who doesn't have the permission necessary to post in the forum, could PM a member who HAD posted and item for sale or trade. I will look into the mechanism to do this.

[mod71alaska]

....FWIW, I bought a rifle from some guy on this board...Victor something. A shady character, no doubt. I'm lucky it turned out okay, despite my initial reservations...

HA! Just joking. Caveat emptor, always. I won't buy from you if I don't trust you....

P

Hey, I'm that Victor and those are (almost) fighten' words, Pharmseller! I'm thinking of challenging you to a duel using that Winchester 71 I sold you that you LOVE so much! After I out shoot you I'm takin' my rifle back, too!!! Man, I shoulda figured I'd have to defend my honor dealing guns with a left coast drug peddler! hahahaha You're one of the best, Quinn! Still...a shootin' duel sounds like a good idea. You can polish up that 71 and get ready to hand it over...and leave that lyman 56 sight on it, too!

I don't need government (that would be you Hobie in this case )
protecting me.

And I don't really want the responsibility! Then again, I don't have a problem with banning posters who rip people off. As I said, we've had ONE that I know of since 2003.

ONE since 2003? I guess I don't see the problem, then!

I didn't vote in the poll because I'd vote to keep things the same as they are. I didn't see that option.

Let's keep things simple and leave responsibility up to the individuals for their own transactions with less "government." I've bought and sold probably a dozen rifles here with people I've never met in person and every buyer/seller has been great. (Even Pharmseller!) I believe in all cases there has been respect for one another as fellow levergunners, firearms owners, shooters, hunters, and often also as fellow Christians. In many cases we've continued to correspond as new Levergunner or Christian friends. I keep thinking about a fellow from Rimfire Central who might post a beautiful lever action rifle for sale here as his first post, but has 500 posts on the Rimfire Forum. Are we going to exclude a really good guy...someone who has twice as many posts on his forum as I do on this forum...because he hasn't posted with us before or doesn't have have 5 or 25 posts?

I submit that it's my (our) responsibility to check out the buyers and sellers we deal with, not the government's, and certainly not Hobie's!

So, I vote to keep the Leverguns Forum Classifieds just as they are. Be responsible, ask questions, even ask for recommendations if you don't know someone. (I have one exception to my vote not to change the format of the Forum Classifieds: I think it always is very helpful to both buyer and seller when a fellow Levergunner speaks up on his own initiative and posts a recommendation of trust and fair dealings from past transactions or personal experience regarding the party posting the ad. I know I always have greatly appreciated that. I think first hand recommendations and positive statements about the honesty of a Classified poster should be allowed in the rules and would be consistent with less government and more personal responsibility.)

Well, that's my 2¢.

[DennisB]

Why a minimum number of posts for just sellers, why not the same for buyers? And for there posts to count they must be only on lever guns, OT posts shouldn’t count. Also probably should be a minimum number of words for the post to count........

Seriously, buyer beware is and should be the rule in any sale. Any buyer here should be able to set there own restrictions on buying. Keep it simple.....

I’m not sure I have enough posts for this opinion to count......

IMO,

Dennis.

[Don McDowell]

I don't think the number of posts a person makes has much to do with anything other than the post count. Honest folks are honest folk and the post count don't mean much.
Recall back to the old board and the fella there that was always around posting jokes, telling stories, etc, racked up a huge post count, and then it happened. He decided he had sufficiently warmed folks up and started selling stuff, stuff that was mostly nothing close to what was claimed, and the buyers had a devil of a time getting things righted.

[Hobie]

I don't think the number of posts a person makes has much to do with anything other than the post count. Honest folks are honest folk and the post count don't mean much.
Recall back to the old board and the fella there that was always around posting jokes, telling stories, etc, racked up a huge post count, and then it happened. He decided he had sufficiently warmed folks up and started selling stuff, stuff that was mostly nothing close to what was claimed, and the buyers had a devil of a time getting things righted.

Don, We're both thinking of the same fella. If there was another such, I can't remember it.

[Hobie]

Victor, "No" is the vote option you were looking for.

[Griff]

Hmmmm.... this is a subject that could get heated. However, as one who's bought several items from about 3 members, I'm not so sure as a post count is necessary or even relavent. I've been queried from several other members about the deal that I struck regarding sellers and my recommendation... which has always been positive. Buyer beware is simply good advice and should be followed.

[Ysabel Kid]

Caveat Emptor. I don't think we should make it a rule, other than enforce posters using the proper protocol in the subject field. Some folks won't buy from people with a low post count - it will make them too nervous and that is their right. Others may throw caution to the wind for a great deal.

I have purchased several arms here, but they have all been from regulars. Each one went without a hitch, and was just fantastic. I have purchased a couple/few arms from GunBroker in the past, and had mixed results. Getting my 1886 darn near gave me heartfailure.

Again, buyer beware...

[rjohns94]

can i change my vote?

[Andrew]

I like the idea of a minimum simply for the fact that it could potentially weed out the losers.

Although, a 25 post minimum would exclude 77.2% of the members list from posting in the classifieds. There are 1866(cool number eh?) of 2415 members that have 24 posts or less. And, 98.8%(2388) have less then 1000 posts(Senior Levergunner) which would really weed out the ne'er-do-wells.

[brucew44guns]

I have bought 2 rifles, one from Pete44RU, and one from Arctic Goose. Couldn't have been smoother deals. Bought misc items from 3 or 4 others---ditto. But I did buy a Marlin from a member of another forum once who advertised here and had 1 post only. I trusted big time, but was rewarded with a very fine rifle and shipped nicely too. Victor is going to sell me a rifle someday, it's a given he's an honest man . But people are people, with many posts, or without many of them. Buyer beware.

[RSY]

You have to be careful with the post-count test, because some of the true old hands haven't really been active here on the new forum. Would you want to inadvertently exclude someone like OD due to a low post count??? I suppose exceptions could be made on a case-by-case-basis.

Scott

[Hobie]

You have to be careful with the post-count test, because some of the true old hands haven't really been active here on the new forum. Would you want to inadvertently exclude someone like OD due to a low post count??? I suppose exceptions could be made on a case-by-case-basis.

Scott

I suppose that as long as I am here (and some other posters emeritus, shootists, etc) then I could do a case by case basis. I can't alter post counts though.

[Noah Zark]

A minimum number of posts will help keep the spam bots away.

For regular folks, IMO a minimum number of posts shows a certain commitment to the forum, the topic, and the other members. A token minimum of 10 or 15 posts will reduce the number of opportunitist sellers and eliminate the spam bots. Folks that are interested or committed will make the effort to participate, and that's all we're after anyway.

JMO,

Noah

[86er]

I have a fairly high post count. There was a rifle up for sale this year. I wanted it and my friend wanted it. The friend has a handful of posts here, but he is honest as the day is long. I ended up communicating with the seller and getting the rifle sent to me for first right of refusal. I decided to let my friend have it and sent it to him. He got some wires crossed and took a long time to send payment. We kept in touch with the seller, but he became frustated at the lack of payment - understandably. If you didn't know these players, you'd think I was trying to rip off the seller. If you accepted that I passed the gun to my friend you'd think he was dishonest. We were both responsible to the seller. Of course, we made it right but - sorry to say - it took about 6 to 8 weeks AFTER we had the rifle to finally get the seller paid. The point is, a high post count doesn't insure a smooth transaction. A low post count doesn't make the person automatically suspect. That was on the BUYERS side, not the seller. He had a fairly high post count and sent the rifle on our word. So how do you keep the store on SELLERS and BUYERS? Well in my case we immediately exchanged phone #'s, addresses and personal e-mails and both my friend and I had our own FFL's, eliminating another party in the transaction. That's about all you can do for some piece of mind. Of course you can buy with a bank check or American Express Money Order that is guaranteed and insured and you can NOT ship until you receive full payment. Meanwhile, I've never waited to receive payment prior to sending something - my risk. I have been required to send payment for a purchase before it was shipped - and couldn't fault the seller. Enough rambling - but it is up to each individual what he/she is comfortable with when engaging in a transaction.

[Old Ironsights]

A minimum number of posts will help keep the spam bots away. ... JMO, Noah

Oh, I dunno... The last spambot made 20 posts before it was Smited...

Cyber Crooks come in all forms and it really wouldn't take much to get a bad apple trying to pull a fast one... particularly if he did some research and knew which drool buttons to push.

[JohndeFresno]

can i change my vote?

Oh - so YOU'RE one of those fellers who votes "early and often!"

[Rexster]

More important than number of posts might be length of time on the forums. Anyone can post a whole bunch of "Amen" and "+1" posts in a few minutes. One forum, Warriortalk.com, actually requires for-sale posts to be individually approved before posting.

[Hobie]

can i change my vote?

Oh - so YOU'RE one of those fellers who votes "early and often!"

I set it up so that if you were convinced by an argument you could change your vote. I really want to know how you guys see it. Lurkers, too. You guys can vote and we'll never see your name. A secret ballot as it were. Better than the dems want to give you on the union votes.

[tarkio]

Hello Guys,

I just read through the responses here and feel compelled to respond after seeing where Hobie wanted to know what we really thought.

I can understand the desire to try and weed out problems by requiring a minimum # of posts. If you were to do that I would be one that couldn't sell here because I don't have very many posts. I would respect that. However, what is it you're accomplishing? By restricting some you would certainly be avoiding problems. But when you restrict others from posting classified ads, you actually end up limiting the opportunities of your members to find and purchase things they want/need/desire.

I know by some earlier posts in this thread, that as I do not have a lot of posts on this forum, my dedication to the forum is suspect and my opinion therefore carries little to no weight. But I felt I would opine anyway.

Have a great day.

[rjohns94]

your opinion matters, as well as any others. all are welcome here so long as a few simple rules are followed. I hope you don't feel unwelcome due to your realatively low post count

[jnyork]

I buy and sell quite a bit on ebay, and would never bid on a first time seller, I want to see some feedback and some previous sales. OTOH, that's just me. I look after myself in the best way I see fit, others may have different ideas. I dont think we need the "Postings Police" here, just let the buyer beware and let the market work freely.

[tarkio]

your opinion matters, as well as any others. all are welcome here so long as a few simple rules are followed. I hope you don't feel unwelcome due to your realatively low post count

I appreciate that. Please be sure that my comment regarding my opinion was somewhat done with tongue-in-cheek.

[Modoc ED]

Heck, I like the transactions that take place in the regular forum. I posed about a problem I was having with a Winchester Model 94 and one of the members posted giving the fix and offering the parts to fix the rifle. The parts were scarce so I PMed him and asked how much the parts were and he PMed back with the price. I told him SOLD and before I could get a check written, he had put the parts in the mail. I sent him my check and everything was finished up by the end of the week. NOW, that's TRUST!!!! -- sending me the parts before receiving payment.

I voted no in the Poll. Sometimes, you've just got to judge a book (member) by the cover (posts) and make up yer mind about what to do.

[rjohns94]

Hobie, won't let me revote.

[Hobie]

Hobie, won't let me revote.

I can't imagine what you're looking at. Just click elsewhere, you should see a radio button next to every option. I do on my page view of the topic.

[rjohns94]

Hobie, I must just be dense. I am sorry. When I click on this topic it gives me the chart showing where I have voted. There are no options visible to me to change my vote. Does not matter though.

[Hobie]

Hobie, I must just be dense. I am sorry. When I click on this topic it gives me the chart showing where I have voted. There are no options visible to me to change my vote. Does not matter though.

I've tried four computers now. There is a small circle immediately left of the bar on the chart. One of those has a small blue dot in the middle of it. That is your current vote. Click on another of those small circles, then click on "SUBMIT" and you will have changed your vote.

[Modoc ED]

Hobie, I must just be dense. I am sorry. When I click on this topic it gives me the chart showing where I have voted. There are no options visible to me to change my vote. Does not matter though.

I've tried four computers now. There is a small circle immediately left of the bar on the chart. One of those has a small blue dot in the middle of it. That is your current vote. Click on another of those small circles, then click on "SUBMIT" and you will have changed your vote.

Once you've voted Hobie, only the results graph shows up and the round buttons go away. Now, if you go to another computer and bring up the "Poll" thread, the buttons show up. It's one of those Computer Weenie, scientific, things that only the Knomes know about. Confuses the heck out of guys like us.

[rjohns94]

oh, I have only pulled it up on this computer
my bad

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I voted NO. Only because I would rather make the decision to buy or not by myself. I am an adult. I can make those kinds of decisions myself. I don't need some entity government or otherwise deciding before I even have an opportunity to see what the seller has for sale.

That said, I sell on Auction arms all the time. I have over 250 all positive feedbacks as a seller/buyer. I also as a buyer passed on a stainless Rossi 92 at $300 because the seller had 40 positive feedbacks but 4 negatives as well. ($300 is about $160 below my wholesale cost)

If there was some way to do a feedback rating here I would like that. That would give the new seller an opportunity to generate positive feedbacks and the buyer more info about the seller once he has a feedback track record. Seems the fair way to do it rather than exclude new sellers and penalize buyers.

[44LVR]

I voted no. The reason is that I was a member on the original site. Then the site went down and I had to reregister and didn't do quite as much posting. Then that site went down and I reregistered for this site! And I do very little posting now, instead I enjoy just reading everyone elses thoughts.

If I added up all my posts from the beginning, I would number in the thousands, but I think I am not much over 100 now.

(44) Jeff Pitts

[Hobie]

If there was some way to do a feedback rating here I would like that. That would give the new seller an opportunity to generate positive feedbacks and the buyer more info about the seller once he has a feedback track record. Seems the fair way to do it rather than exclude new sellers and penalize buyers.

Steve, I just don't know how we'd do a feedback except in a locked post. We weren't set up for an auction type system. Paul, do you have any ideas on this?

[Blaine]

I voted +25........ More than anything, I wish the ads would be updated after being sold or pulled....Grrrrrrrr I've been zapped twice by that now...Grrrrrr

[Hobie]

Blaine,

Lazy sellers neither list their items correctly nor will they update the add when it sells. The topics automatically disappear after 10 days without a response. Should we shorten that time?

[mod71alaska]

Blaine,

Lazy sellers neither list their items correctly nor will they update the add when it sells. The topics automatically disappear after 10 days without a response. Should we shorten that time?

I think 10 days is just the right amount of time before an automatic delete. Otherwise it's just going to be a bunch more BTT. My impression is that most have been responsible in updating their ads. I notice that the classifieds is running two pages now. Often it's only one. 10 days is just the right amount of time before ads are automatically deleted.

Just my 2 cents. I totally defer to you wisdom on the matter, Hobie.

[O.S.O.K.]

A minimum number of posts will help keep the spam bots away.

For regular folks, IMO a minimum number of posts shows a certain commitment to the forum, the topic, and the other members. A token minimum of 10 or 15 posts will reduce the number of opportunitist sellers and eliminate the spam bots. Folks that are interested or committed will make the effort to participate, and that's all we're after anyway.

JMO,

Noah

+1

Guys - this isn't to exclude anyone really - it's just to prevent the lazy, hit and runners and reduce the possibility that somebody here gets a raw deal. Caveate emptor still applies of course.

The guys that hang on multiple boards and frequently do transactions on auctions are the ones suggesting this... its just common sense IMHO.

And as said, it doesn't take much time or effort to post 25 times if you're an old member returning. I do that every day practically (yes, I'm a blabber mouth )

[Modoc ED]

..............(yes, I'm a blabber mouth )

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, uh, "blabber fingers" would probably be a more accurate description on a forum where you "type" your replies/posts/threads.

[Yance]

Steve, I just don't know how we'd do a feedback except in a locked post. We weren't set up for an auction type system. Paul, do you have any ideas on this?

Over on Castboolits the first "sticky" in Swappin' and Sellin' is;

Straight Shooters & Deadbeats
A forum for discussion of those on both sides of "Caveat Emptor "

May be "Too little too late" for a 'Hit 'n' Run" seller, but it might also help define the character of a repeat seller. i.e., "Smooth transaction", or "Better than expected", of negatives like: "Got the item but it took a long time", or "Not as advertised".

I know that 99.9+% of us are on the up and up but I don't really like seeing new members especially using this like a flea market.

Just my 2¢