Bear Defense in Alaska

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:48 pm

I was reading an article on a web site about bear defense in Alaska's parks and they said that out of 175 encounters Bear spray worked 92% of the time and guns only worked 60+% of the time. I guess that was their way of saying you don't need a gun while in bear country. I had to smile when I read that. I was thinking if one would have asked the other 8% who were either dead or had their face ripped off what they thought a gun would have been a better weapon. I guess since only 8% was either killed or hurt thats a number they can live with. What say you all?????

TCB in TN · Post by **TCB in TN** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:57 pm

In my experience most stats are just a bunch of bunk. I don't believe them any more than I do most politicians! If I had to pick one, it sure ain't the bear spray!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:29 pm

I bet no one asked the bears.

That also assumes that all the meetings of bear and human were reported. If I had a close encounter of the grizzly kind and stopped it with a couple of rounds of .44 mag, but I didn't lose any skin why would I report it?

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:34 pm

You got that right. I am the kind of guy who tries to cover all bases like most gun owners. If their is only 1% chance of being attached , Im going to carry. If I can't take a gun into a selected location for camping or such, I guess I won't be going. Just have to pick a place where I can have control over my own destiny.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:27 pm

Liars can figure and figures can lie.

Gun Runner · Post by **Gun Runner** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:13 am

When I lived in Alaska any time I wen out 18" 12 ga pump (minus the plug) with slugs and my 44 Mag with heavy loads went also.

Gun Runner

TomD · Post by **TomD** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:42 am

Well there isn't anything stopping one from using both. I do think that a can of spray, is lighter and easier to carry and might be at hand. But I also think it might be hard to spray-stop a bear in high wind, or if the animal was a attacking someone out of range, while a gun would still be useful.

There is this thing I see all the time. It's the "shy and retiring" treatment. Park propaganda always says some stuff about how you won't have any trouble, and the next thing you know it's right there. Once I was coming across the tamiani trail in the glades, and stopped at a station. They had an article cut out about how this guy who used to feed roast beef to the gators, fell in, and was attacked, though he did live. Obvious intent was to point out you never get attacked by gators unless you feed them and fall on them. There was also an article on snakes that said A Florida sportsman could spend a lifetime in the woods without ever seeing the shy and retiring cottonmouth or the copperhead. Which sounded crazy we had seen a Cottonmouth the first time we got out of the car. So next day we go to Myaka park. On the way in a lady is stopping everyone who will listen to tell them how a gator almost attacked their little boy in the campsite (probably just moving between waterways). Next day I got attacked by a small gator in the desert highlands!! Almost stepped on a cottonmouth, and saw a really big copperhead.

Same thing up north, the Massassauga rattle is "shy and retiring", according to my guidebook, but everyone I met in their range had some fine stories to tell... It also has a particularly nasty venom.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:33 am

in Alaska my prefered bear defense is
Sarah Palin with a Model 71 in 450 Alaskan...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:26 am

The statistics are skewed by bravado.

If you can get away with it, a Bear Shooting is a SSS situation. Even a "good" shoot is a major PITA when dealing with Fish & Game/Feds/Media. "Shoot-N-Miss/Runaway" also doesn't make it into the stats.

OTOH there are quite likely MORE "Bear Sprayings" that are reported than actually happened - or that were actually required (spraying at a fleeing bear). "I stood up to a bear with a can of seasoning! Ain't I Macho!" (anybody got some clean panties?)

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:37 am

Tennessee Hayre wrote:I was reading an article on a web site about bear defense in Alaska's parks and they said that out of 175 encounters Bear spray worked 92% of the time and guns only worked 60+% of the time.

It depends on what how one defines "worked."

If the bear, which is prone to attack, is alive after the encounter, then the spray didn't work. If the bear, after being shot, dies, then guns work. In my opinion, bear spray never works, but the gun always works if the shot is well placed and the bear winds up dead.

I like the suggestion that you use both. First kill the attacking bear with one or more well placed shots from a 45/70 Government filled with heavy lead slugs, then apply a generous dose of bear spray to the dead bears face. Then everyone will be happy and can report with complete confidence that both the spray and the lead worked 100%.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:26 pm

More Alaska propaganda. They're 100% political at ADF&G, and they want citizens disarmed. The Park Feds are the same way. I never met one of them who wasn't as much a PITA as the bears are.

I trust 'em exactly as much as I trust osama/reid/pelosi; I trust 'em to harm me any way they can as much as they can.

MistWolf · Post by **MistWolf** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:28 pm

Well, I figger 92 + 60 is 152%! MUCH better odds!

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:29 pm

What is this PITA? Does it stand for Pain In The A@@?

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:52 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-AVr7gNmrU

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:13 pm

That'll do... though a charging grizz would have covered 1/2 that distance before he got off round 1...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:29 pm

1894cfan wrote:What is this PITA? Does it stand for Pain In The A@@?

that's a big 10-4 good buddy

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:36 pm

the issue is not what happens if spray works, it's what happens after it doesn't. what they probably are leaving out is that a lot of bear attacks happen well inside your decision cycle... like they might be so close you can't get your rifle barrel up in time. they can outrun a quarterhorse. in a lot of those cases your average tourist isn't gonna have the spray bottle armed any faster than the rifleman is gonna be ready.

it's a luxury to have three [THAT'S THREE] seconds to react, five if you're really lucky. according to reliable sources.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:07 pm

Grizz wrote:the issue is not what happens if spray works, it's what happens after it doesn't. ....

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:32 pm

I learned only one usable lesson from the statistics class. You can make the numbers say anything you want. It all depends on how you select your data. Well two actually, if they won't quite say what you want, just lie. It's doubtful anyone will check the facts. Most folks are either too lazy or just don't care.

Coldfingers · Post by **Coldfingers** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:19 pm

The only thought worse than jamming my pistol under the bears chin and trying to blow his brains out is the thought of jamming a can o pepper in his face and trying to blow his nose.

The pepper spray works great on the curious bear who has not gotten his tail in a knot and started to cover the last twenty feet in a highly agitated state. Once that has commenced, you are not going to get a CNS hit with a spray can no matter how hard youj try. The fact that folks are pulling it off with a firearm with better than fifty/fifty odds seems pretty good to me.

Most of the folks that I have talked to who used pepper spray used it on bears that were pretty much just passing by and paused out of curiosity or were licking the cooler. The ones that pass the DLP test were out of control and bent on total destruction of the shooter.

I do keep the spray in camp if I have room in my gear. I do not carry it in the field as my belt is heavy enough with the handgun hangin off it.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:06 pm

Half of the public don't understand statistics and the other 65% don't care.

donw · Post by **donw** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:25 pm

it seems to me that people who have the least knowledge and experience with these matters are the ones who determine policy.

i'd wager that the ones that make policy would think twice if they were the victim of an attack about not wanting to allow firearms.

TomD · Post by **TomD** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:20 pm

"it seems to me that people who have the least knowledge and experience with these matters are the ones who determine policy."

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. Check this out. They are talking about letting folks travelling in our provincial parks (black and polar bears) to be armed. But it will just be for self defence. So you won't be allowed to have a loaded gun, that sounds too much like hunting I guess. Now you have to admit the guy who came up with that policy was a genius!!

draperjojo · Post by **draperjojo** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:28 pm

Re: Bear Defense in Alaska
by TCB in TN on Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:57 pm

In my experience most stats are just a bunch of bunk. I don't believe them any more than I do most politicians! If I had to pick one, it sure ain't the bear spray!

Did you know 76% of all statistics are made up on the spot.............

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:17 pm

I would agree. While calling the Army my home for 20 years, I worked in about every job and while working in Company Operations, Battalion Ops, and Brigade Ops I can tell you Stats ran the game. I seen how they were arranged to met the needs of the commander many times when submitting reports. I would assume all other Org, no matter what they call them-selfs do the same to get a certain outcome.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:01 pm

As Mark Twain said:

There are lies. There are darned lies. And then there are Statistics.

I have a tendency of taking statistics with a block of salt.

J35 · Post by **J35** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:45 pm

[quote="donw"it seems to me that people who have the least knowledge and experience with these matters are the ones who determine policy."]

In the military those type of people are called REMF's

[i'd wager that the ones that make policy would think twice if they were the victim of an attack about not wanting to allow firearms.[/quote]

I bet you would win your wager.

Good shooting

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:30 pm

after giving this topic much thought, i'll take my puny .357s&w mag. loaded with 180gr. hardcast buffaloe bore bullets at 1400fpts. than a can of spray.

scr83jp · Post by **scr83jp** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:34 pm

One of my friends told me his brother & sister-in-law homesteaded in rural AK & for protection they each carried 12g Remington 870's, w/o the plug ,loaded alternately with Slugs & 00 Buck when they accompanied their children to the school bus stop or any other outside activities .Their encounters were mainly with black bears.

SmokeEater2 · Post by **SmokeEater2** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:50 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:in Alaska my prefered bear defense is
Sarah Palin with a Model 71 in 450 Alaskan...

She's kinda' busy right now but I'll bet any one of the Palin kids would do fine as a stand-in for Mom.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:24 pm

Andrew wrote:Half of the public don't understand statistics and the other 65% don't care.

My point exactly.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:33 pm

If a grizzly is bent on killing you, he will kill you. It doesn't matter what you shoot him with. You just better pray that there's at least a little lack of interest on the bear's part. They've been known to rip apart small trees out of anger and confusion after being shot multiple times in the boiler room with a 470 Nitro. Then again, attacks have been stopped immediately with one well-placed 22LR ......out of a single-shot rifle......by a nice little native woman.

It's a good idea to use "something", rather than "nothing". But it's similar to deciding if it's better to be struck by lightning while wearing "sneakers" or "loafers". With either one, it's probably still gonna hurt.

bogie

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:41 pm

Pepper spray makes sense in theory. The grizzly's nose is the most sensitive of most, if not all, land mammals on earth. I'm sure it would be VERY uncomfortable for one to receive even a light blast to the nostrils. But again, if he wants to kill you, he will.

bogie

Coldfingers · Post by **Coldfingers** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:59 pm

Skunks seem to have this whole spray thing down to a science. Even figgured out how to fire it while making their escape. Yet one only can wonder how many skunks get eaten every year.

Was just reading in tonights paper. There has been a sow with cubs maruading the homes in Salcha. F&G has set live traps and had one of the cubs the other day but mom got it out (that made some racket in the neighborhood you betcha!!) Last nights raid consisted of breaking into a garage and eating the contents of a chest freezer...moose, caribou, and salmon.

They can be persistant and pesky. The folks in Salcha aint packin pepperspray to the mailbox or to check on things that go bump in the garage at night

Hopefully, they will den up soon although the ground is getting pretty frozen and snowcovered. Temps hitting the zero mark at night. A few years back an old boar denned up at the Yukon River camp (it had closed for the winter) after raiding the fridge. Made himself a nice nest in the linnen room. The crew that went up to open the camp in the spring had to deal with him inside. He was somewhat cranky. Pepperspray was not the option there either.

It would be nice if they would just poop in the woods, eat in the woods, and stay in the woods. They don't. Last summer we had 12 DLP shootings around town. The bears took a pounding. This fall I floated a streach of river that runs past my house. Put in about 15 miles (straightline) upstream. Saw evidence of five different Grizz on my float home. No blackbear sign and very little moose sign. They are eating machines.

Two years back I bumbled into a fresh kill while bowhunting. A sow w/cubs had burried a WHOLE moose on the back edge of a sandbar. Quite an impressive sight although I did not linger long once I could get my feet to move again. Durn things. The little hairs stand up on the back of my neck just thinkin of it...

I do everything I can to avoid a confrontation with them and have been pretty successfull so far. I hope to keep it up.

Scotty

Slick13 · Post by **Slick13** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:55 am

Bogie35 wrote:Pepper spray makes sense in theory. The grizzly's nose is the most sensitive of most, if not all, land mammals on earth. I'm sure it would be VERY uncomfortable for one to receive even a light blast to the nostrils. But again, if he wants to kill you, he will.

bogie

How close do you have to get ti hit the bear in the nose?

If I was going where I knew there'd be large bears, I'd want pepper spray, a large bore handgun, AND a large bore rifle, and the latter is always going to be ready to be used first.

~Michael

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:20 am

The Best Bear Defense in Alaska: Run faster than the bear (or your companions, anyway

) !

.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:29 pm

Bogie35 wrote:If a grizzly is bent on killing you, he will kill you. It doesn't matter what you shoot him with. You just better pray that there's at least a little lack of interest on the bear's part. They've been known to rip apart small trees out of anger and confusion after being shot multiple times in the boiler room with a 470 Nitro. Then again, attacks have been stopped immediately with one well-placed 22LR ......out of a single-shot rifle......by a nice little native woman.

It's a good idea to use "something", rather than "nothing". But it's similar to deciding if it's better to be struck by lightning while wearing "sneakers" or "loafers". With either one, it's probably still gonna hurt.

bogie

If you shoot a Grizzly with a 30-06, 338, 375H&H, or bigger and are good enough to hit him in the front shoulders, he's done. If you break one or both front shoulders, there's no way he will be able to get to you. Been there and done that...I used a 338 Win Mag on a Grizzly charge (on a Moose gut pile) at less than 20 yards and used three rounds...two rounds took out the shoulders. The key to survival is to take out the shoulders. A "boiler room" or "head" shot should be avoided for a lot of reasons...

I now pack a 45-70/457 WW Mag while in Alaska in a Marlin GS. If you don't take out those shoulders, you will be mauled. Even if you take out the heart and lungs, the "Griz" still has enough oxygen in thier blood stream to tear you up before they finally die.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:36 pm

this says it all:

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:38 pm

I'm with my brother jarhead. You've got to be able to break down the structure. A blown heart still leaves 7+ seconds of oxygen for a bear to really do some damage and now they're really mad.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:41 pm

rjohns94 wrote:this says it all:

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:42 pm

How do you take out the shoulder when a bear is running toward you. Seems to me if he has his head down ears back Etc.. on a dead run. A head shot would be the right thing if just a few yards away. (Of course I have never shot a bear only deer) but as a hunter knowing that I only have a few seconds to re-act that bears head should be a pretty big picture by the time I pull the trigger. Alaska Bear Guide Ed Stevenson believed head shots at close range was what he would take after being attacked once. I need to check his web site again but I'm sure he had said something like that for close in engagement. Tell me where I'm wrong.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:57 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:How do you take out the shoulder when a bear is running toward you. Seems to me if he has his head down ears back Etc.. on a dead run. A head shot would be the right thing. (Of course I have never shot a bear) but as a hunter knowing that I only have a few seconds to react that bears head should be a pretty big picture by the time I pull the trigger. Tell me where I'm wrong.

The shoulder area is located on either side of the head...and is actually easier to hit..ya do your best under the circumstances. I've heard of rounds bouncing off the sloped scull, but I've heard of head shots that worked. A shoulder shot imobilzes the bear ..and is a sure thing.

"How do you take out the shoulder when a bear is running towards you?" You aim and shoot very quickly! Or Else...

It's your life and your decision to make.

Best wishes...

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:08 pm

I have always agreed that a shoulder shot would be best. Just have never seen a bear that close in real life facing me and it just seems his head would be the biggest picture in my front sights. I guess every situation is different. Hope I never have to fight a bear on his or her terms.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:58 pm

"Three kinds of lies: Lies, darn lies, and, statistics". -- Benjamin Disraeli

2571 · Post by **2571** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:07 pm

Disraeli's comment loses something in the translation imposed by the forum computer.

Perhaps I should have used the Palin favorite, 'doggone' instead of the actual utterance.

LOL. Computer is right -- this is a family forum. Thanks for the correction, Hal.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:59 pm

jarhead, nice bear my friend!!!!!

one back at you:

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:13 pm

Mike,

Nice Black Bear....

...Mighty fine. I shot a Black Bear in Alaska back in 2003..I have the darn things on my farm in Eastern Oregon...I had a sow and cub by my gate the other day. I would like to take a couple more black bears and make a bed spread

I took my Grizzly almost 20 years ago...She's an Alaskan Sivertip...Interior - Near Denali...in the Brushkana Drainage on a Moose gut pile...Whew!

She wanted me for breakfast...I upgraded my 338 Win mag. to an FN .458 Browning shortly thereafter. I pack a Marlin GS now as stated earlier...

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:22 pm

Beautiful bear you got there. Mine was taken in Virginia. In the hanging picture, his nose is on the ground, I stand 6'3". he had me by a foot and half and 400+ pounds. He wanted me for Breakfast too. 12 gauge slugs and buckshot on this one.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:38 pm

I totally disagree that a shoulder shot is good enough on a comitted charging bear. Only a CNS shot will keep you safe. A bear's heart beats so slow that you can blow it up and he still has time to eviscerate you and cut your throat.

There are probably hundreds of people maimed and/or killed by a fatally wounded bear. Bears are notorious for taking four or five rounds and still having enough juice to kill you. A Central Nervous System shot is the only thing that stops mad bears in time to save your life. Read the literature, don't take my word for it.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:57 pm

Grizz wrote:I totally disagree that a shoulder shot is good enough on a comitted charging bear. Only a CNS shot will keep you safe. A bear's heart beats so slow that you can blow it up and he still has time to eviscerate you and cut your throat.

There are probably hundreds of people maimed and/or killed by a fatally wounded bear. Bears are notorious for taking four or five rounds and still having enough juice to kill you. A Central Nervous System shot is the only thing that stops mad bears in time to save your life. Read the literature, don't take my word for it.

Was good enough for me...It breaks the Bears bones(front shoulders) Immediatly..and the bear drops! Right now! He drops !and his butt rolls or follows him for another shoulder shot...and another. Can't get ya if the bones are borken...Mine droped after a shot to both shoulders...my first shot rolled the bear....my second blew both front shoulders out...Dead. Third shot for insurance..When I skinned the bear, the front shoulders were completly blown out...A CNS shot to the spine behind the head or perhaps a shot to the head would be better, but taking out the shouders worked very well for me. I really didn't have much time, so I focused on the shoulders and it worked. Glad it did, for at that time I had a wife and two very little daughters to support and take care of. Funny that sped through my mind while I was reacting to the situation. It all took place in less than 10 seconds...