30-30 Light Load Field Test Results

[86er]

RKrodle and I loaded up some 110 grain RN bullets at a velocity of 2000 fps. Ricky can provide the exact load if anyone is interested. I taught a new shooter how to use the Ranch Rifle with those loads. On the way back from lunch, I spotted a free range axis deer doe sneaking along a draw off a country road. I drove around to the other side of the draw, loaded the rifle and walked down into some brush to wait. After 20 minutes or so the doe came meandering along. At 60 yards she was broadside with her head down. I put the iron sights on her shoulder and squeezed the trigger oh so gently. At the pop she bucked up and walked stiffly some 20 yards. There she laid down but head up. I moved 20 yards and put another shot right next to the first. She got up and started walking very slowly, swaying from side to side. I shot another, creating a little triangle with the entry holes. The deer went down for good and became donated meat for a local family. Here's what happened. The deer was 70 pounds. All shots were 60 yards into the shoulder. NONE of them exited. I don't know which bullet is from which shot but they all hit the back of the shoulder and all penetrated between 5 and 7 inches. Yet each bullet acted differently. The one on the left is a mushroomed lead core, but the jacket is no where to be found. It weighs 69.7 grains. The middle one is bent and the jacket is torn but it did not expand much at all. It weights 91.6 grains. The right one expanded into a nice 40 caliber mushroom and weighs 92.1 grains. The conclusion is that while there is no recoil and very low noise, we need more penetration for deer sized stuff. If we are going to use this bullet, an increase in velocity of 300 fps is what is needed. This is based soley on mathematical data that increased things like ME, KE, BC, TKO and other ballistic influences. The mathematical conclusion is that the 300 fps will provide an additional 3.265 inches of penetration with the same exact resistance. The 2000 fps load can still be used for paper punching hitting 2 inches high at 100 yards while the same bullet at 2300 fps will hit 1/2" low at 100 yards.

[TedH]

Great report Joe. Looks like more lead is in order. Maybe move up to 130 gr. Speers.

[WCF3030]

For that sized game why not a 170-180gr cast at 1300-1400fps. Recoil is light and you should not have troubles with penitration.

[Blaine]

For that sized game why not a 170-180gr cast at 1300-1400fps. Recoil is light and you should not have troubles with penitration.

+1
I was thinking a 150 or so hardcast w/GC.

[RSY]

I could be completely wrong, but in my limited experience with Axis deer I've come to think that their hides are more than a little tougher than, say, a whitetail's. If those are the same rounds that young Lindsay used on her blackbuck doe last month, I do recall them performing fairly up to snuff, though.

As suggested above, maybe the ranch rifle needs something a good bit heavier (and maybe slower for recoil's sake) for anything beyond blackbuck.

Scott

[Bob A]

I am curious which bullet was used.
I know that Hornady, Sierra, Speer and Rem all make a 110 RN.
I suspect the Rem is much softer than the others but don't know which is tougher between
Hornady, Sierra and Speer.

Bob A

[RKrodle]

The bullet is a Rem 110 gr SP for a 30 carbine. The reason we are trying to use a light bullet moving fairly slow is to cut down on recoil and noise while trying to maintain a somewhat flat trajectory. A load that a small child could use without having a bad experience. Or, that is at least what we were shooting for, pun intended . It's an inexpensive round that we can keep several loaded up at the ranch for any kid, or adult, who wants to learn to shoot a lever gun. The bullets appeared to hold together pretty good, other then the one shedding the jacket. But, I would like to see more penetration.

[Hobie]

The Sierra 125 gr. FP is a good one for your purpose. You will need just a bit more velocity in any case.

[Charles]

You have reinvented the 32-20/30 Carbine and once again proved these rounds are marginal at best for deer.

[Idiot]

You have reinvented the 32-20/30 Carbine and once again proved these rounds are marginal at best for deer.

Yep.

86er, thanks for the useful information.

[woods-walker]

I'll second the effectiveness of the 130 grain Speers. My loads are moving faster over a charge of W748, light recoil but a sharper report than a .32wcf. I have yet to recover a bullet and meat damage is acceptable.

[20cows]

I load a Lee 164 gr (ww) cast bullet to about 1200 fps a for low recoil round my son uses in his trapper.

[JohndeFresno]

I'm currently experimenting with a variation of THE LOAD as crafted by the great C. E. Harris (13 gr. Red Dot for several .30 caliber or larger rifle cartridges, providing they have the case capacity). Besides being a light and effective, position insensitive target load for beginners and youth, my variation of THE LOAD is (in the words of a hungry nestling) CHEAP, CHEAP CHEAP. And that's music to my ears.

My brother-in-law uses 9.0 gr. with a 170-175 gr. FN hard cast projectile, and I have tried 10.0 gr. and liked it. However, I am currently testing 9.4 grains of Red Dot because that is what the 1.3 cc Lee Dipper measures out, given the weather conditions and temperature in Central California at the current time.

Charging problems with Red Dot shotgun powder: As an aside, my RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure cannot handle the fine flaked powder. It works its way around the charging cylinder (I guess it's called) and then comes out as no charge or an overcharge after a few good throws. And even my Lee Auto Disk setup sometimes leaks above and around the disk.

So I have moved to the dipper for using Red Dot. Brother-in-law told me that his Hornady powder dispenser does not leak; but I am out of room on my loading area and a little over-invested in hardware, anyway.

So this is the load that impresses me so far, and I will be following up with my scoped Marlin 336 at 100 yards after I load up a batch, when I can get back to the range. If there are impressive results, I will post them later. But with the many crack shots on this forum, the group will have to look like a cloverleaf or I probably won't bother to show my target! And as we all know, each rifle is different.

My load:
30-30 Winchester Marlin 336 Centennial 20 in. barrel
9.4 gr. Alliant Red Dot (Using 1.3 cc Lee Dipper)
No wad or filler needed - powder is not sensitive to position of firearm, per C. E. Harris
Winchester Super-X brass, CCI 200 Lg Rifle primers
173 gr. Montana Bullet Works FN Gas Checked, Lubed,
Brinnell Hardness 22 per company
COAL (Cartridge Overall Length) 2.510 inches
Est. velocity (not yet clocked) 1,430 fps / Calculated ME 786 ft. lbs.
Computed Taylor KO value: 10.9 (for those who like that info)
My use is for target practice, however, at adjusted dope for the lighter load
Zeroed at 50 yards, if memory is correct (I had to calculate due to 100 yd tgt)

I especially like the fact that I don't have to worry about dumping the muzzle towards the ground between shots just to achieve consistent velocity; and after hearing and reading dissenting opinions about the advisability of using fillers such as dacron and wads, I have decided that such things are definitely not for me. Why even risk having rings in the bore of a nice lever action rifle?

My preliminary testing showed an acceptable group, but I was firing at a 100 yard range and did not have time to compare it with other loads; I was testing several firearms at the time. I would suggest that interested readers try it for themselves. It's a pussycat to shoot, of course; and It is certainly a safe load!! You can load a lot of ammunition with only 9-10 grains of this shotgun powder.

[Bob A]

[quote="JohndeFresno"]
My load:
30-30 Winchester Marlin 336 Centennial 20 in. barrel
9.4 gr. Alliant Red Dot (Using 1.3 cc Lee Dipper)
No wad or filler needed - powder is not sensitive to position of firearm, per C. E. Harris
Winchester Super-X brass, CCI 200 Lg Rifle primers
173 gr. Montana Bullet Works FN Gas Checked, Lubed,

John,
I have not tried the Lyman 311041 from Montana Bullet Works because they only offer sizing to 308 or 309.
I find my 336 prefers .310 or .311. My bore slugs to .309.
I have found very few commercial casters offer .311 and those that do "offer" .311 never ship
(like Beartooth Bullets and Penn Bullets)
What size are you using?
I will be very interested in your range results because I have been working on the same goal but using
SR4759 powder. Promising results so far using 14.5 gr with the 311041 sized to .311.
50 yd groups under 2" consistenly and lately coming down to sub 1.5" as I work with COL to get closer to the lands

Please let us know how you do with "THE LOAD"

Bob A

Bob A

[JohndeFresno]

John,
I have not tried the Lyman 311041 from Montana Bullet Works because they only offer sizing to 308 or 309.
I find my 336 prefers .310 or .311. My bore slugs to .309.
I have found very few commercial casters offer .311 and those that do "offer" .311 never ship
(like Beartooth Bullets and Penn Bullets)
What size are you using?
I will be very interested in your range results because I have been working on the same goal but using
SR4759 powder. Promising results so far using 14.5 gr with the 311041 sized to .311.
50 yd groups under 2" consistenly and lately coming down to sub 1.5" as I work with COL to get closer to the lands

Please let us know how you do with "THE LOAD"

Bob A

Bob, I consulted with Dave and Marcie at
Montana Bullet Works
7730 Hesper Road
Billings, MT 59106
406-655-8163

Dave told me that, given what I was trying to do with the Marlin 336, he believed that I should definitely use the .309 - which is what he shipped to me. So far, I am very happy with this hard cast bullet; but more testing is indeed in order. Like other good family owned companies, Dave and Marcie thanked me for the order and stated in an e-mail that they would do everything possible to accommodate my needs. You might give them a call to see if they can size up for you.

As you pointed out (and as I neglected to do so), this is merely a well cast Lyman 311041, my chosen favorite all-use projectile for the thutty-thutty; so if they cannot size it properly, there are other good quality loaders, too. For the reason you noted, since some local reloader friends have had a similar problem (with Beartooth in particular, and others) in getting a timely response to their order, I always contact the company by e-mail AND phone before placing an order, to see when they will indeed put the order together.

Dave, at Montana (for instance) apologized for his schedule, and told me that he can't get the order out for a couple of days, but that he would get to work right away. That wasn't from any pressured requests, just good ol' Montana courtesy. The order still came back quicker than with the large retail outlets, and I received what appears to be high quality merchandise at a fair price. I have similar stories for all of the suppliers mentioned below.

I have had excellent response, service and product (cast bullets of various calibers) from:
Magnus Bullets (makes dead-on cast bullets for my .44 Mag target rounds)
Montana Bullet Works
Oregon Trail / LaserCast and TrueShot
LTD Custom (not reloading for the moment, per their website)
Mt. Baldy
Midway (I think that their search engine is the best in the business)

I have heard great things from some reloader friends in my part of the country regarding Cast Performance, so I will try to find a niche for them, since they are now sponsoring this, my favorite gun site. They sent me some good looking samples a while back, so I owe them some business, anyway. They are another company that I would go to for the round in question.

They have all, at one time or another, given me courteous, prompt and accurate advice on how to select and use their products. There are others, of course, and many I have not tried, because I am very satisfied with the above. In fact, there is just something about true shooting/loading enthusiasts that reveals most of them to be high caliber people (pun intended, I guess).

[Nath]

In the past I have used 150grn hard cast Gchecked and blue dot. The bullets in question would not of been an ideal shape for small deer but a good flat'n and I feel sure would be ok on small deer.

I use to use a 32 pistol 89grn for squirl pushed through a 308 Lee sizing die and a pinch of W231, it wasn't much good really! I remember shooting a fox that walked down this path towards me and I "popped" one in him at 5yds facing me, he legged it and I never found him. Did not have Tia then!

Nath.

[Old Savage]

I would think 300 fps more would cause more erratic bullet performance. 130s at least I would think.

[John in MS]

+1 for Old Savage's idea -- I think going to a better bullet for actual hunting (plus reasonable velocity for expansion) would probably give much more reliable and satisfactory results than increasing speed on the Remington "carbine" bullet.

You could still use the 110's for training and Speer 130's for hunting. A little careful assessment of zero
differences between the 2 might reveal little problem switching between loads for within 100 yards.

To me, an essential part of a good hunting experience for a young person (or any person, really) is
that the ammunition perform reliably and humanely, and sometimes good bullets just cost a bit more.

Thanks again for the very helpful report (as always!)

Hope this helps,
John

[Old Ironsights]

How about shooting for .357 OEM ballistics? We know that a good 158-180gr bullet at 1500-1800 is decent for deer and has almost no recoil - especially out of a 94 sized gun...

That 110 just seems awfully light & shallow...

[JohndeFresno]

I'm currently experimenting with a variation of THE LOAD as crafted by the great C. E. Harris (13 gr. Red Dot for several .30 caliber or larger rifle cartridges, providing they have the case capacity)....

My load:
30-30 Winchester Marlin 336 Centennial 20 in. barrel
9.4 gr. Alliant Red Dot (Using 1.3 cc Lee Dipper)
No wad or filler needed - powder is not sensitive to position of firearm, per C. E. Harris
Winchester Super-X brass, CCI 200 Lg Rifle primers
173 gr. Montana Bullet Works FN Gas Checked, Lubed,
Brinnell Hardness 22 per company
COAL (Cartridge Overall Length) 2.510 inches
Est. velocity (not yet clocked) 1,430 fps / Calculated ME 786 ft. lbs.
Computed Taylor KO value: 10.9 (for those who like that info)
My use is for target practice, however, at adjusted dope for the lighter load
Zeroed at 50 yards, if memory is correct (I had to calculate due to 100 yd tgt).

UPDATE from 7-2-2010
This month saw the first time in ages that I could spend a full day at the range. I brought a chronograph but there was too much activity at the stations for its use to be practical, so I just tested the loads without clocking them.

At 50 yards, as expected, I zeroed close to the bullseye with my scope dialed in for 100 yards on a more traditional load (Remington factory bullet of same weight). Dave Jennings sized this Montana BW boolit to .309.

I should have brought the target home or snapped it with my digital camera; but there will now be more range days. The groups appeared to be less than a half inch at 50 yards, discounting two flyers which I felt when firing. A few rounds were touching. I fired several firearms and sighted them in, so I will need to give better details the next day I take the .30-30 up there for just that caliber.

I will be testing this load further, to see exactly how tight I can group and 100 and 50 yards - good enough for some inexpensive plinking. My goal was reached with this load and bullet. There are some good casters out there, and it appears that the folks at Montana Bullet Works are among them. That's what I'll stick with for Red Dot. It looks like I've found a fairly cheap practice load!

[J Miller]

When I started teaching my 10 and 14 yo step sons to shoot I let them try my 30-30s with standard 150gr ammo. I said if that is too much for you, I'll load some lighter loads. Both of them went for the standard loads. Neither had any trouble with them at all. Neither does my 5'5" wife.
In short order my 10 yo gravitated to my No4Mk1 with ball ammo and never looked back.
With proper instructions I don't think youngsters are as recoil sensitive as some think they are.

I'm not sure where this lighter bullet, lighter recoil, lighter power for youngsters idea came from but it don't hold water for me.

JMHO based on my experiences.

Joe

[20cows]

My lad was very recoil sensitive. It was load it down or he wouldn't shoot.

I loaded it down.

[JohndeFresno]

Joe,

I'm interested in the lighter load for only one reason, split five ways:
1) I have a good supply of Red Dot;
2) It was CHEAP;
3) Light loads are CHEAP;
4) Shooting locally is CHEAP to shoot (free, little gas used);
5) Since I don't yet roll my own projectiles, these cast bullets are pretty reasonable - almost CHEAP.

But locally I only plink at about 50 yards at a vineyard or farmland, given the areas with a backstop. The range is a 45 minute drive each way and charges a fee.

[Rusty]

Increasing the velocity by 300 FPS to increase penetration??

Isn't that contrary to what John Linebaugh teaches in his seminars?

Just wonderin...

[NonPCnraRN]

You could try the Sierra 125 gr FN. Sam Fadala in his book, Winchester's 30-30, Model 94, lists a load on page p.50, using the Sierra 125 gr FN and 38.0 gr of H-335 for 2709 fps mv out of a 26" barrel. For a 20 inch barrel he said to deduct about 100-125 fps. That comes to 2584 to 2609 fps for the 20 inch barrel. There is also a 125 gr FN HP that should provide more expansion if desired. Another more expensive alternative would be the Barnes DPX 30 cal 100 gr M-1 carbine bullet. It would definately penetrate better than the Remington 30 carbine bullet.

[Glenn]

John,
I have a Uniflow too, and had some problem with light and over charges early on. This happens because the powder bridges (jams up) in the drop tube. The cure is to mount the handle so it is pointing down when the powder is dumping. Then when you dump the powder, move the handle to the stop normally, then give it two sharp taps against the stop. This will break any powder loose that bridges, and settle the powder in the hopper, ready for the next charge. Try it, you'll like it.
Glenn

"Charging problems with Red Dot shotgun powder: As an aside, my RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure cannot handle the fine flaked powder. It works its way around the charging cylinder (I guess it's called) and then comes out as no charge or an overcharge after a few good throws. "

[JohndeFresno]

John,
I have a Uniflow too...The cure is to mount the handle so it is pointing down when the powder is dumping. Then when you dump the powder, move the handle to the stop normally, then give it two sharp taps against the stop..."

Thanks, Glenn. I do the three sharp rap thing, but at the BEGINNING of each cycle, against the hopper. I never thought of rapping the handle on the downstroke. I'll try it.

[m.wun]

maybe the rifle should be a 357 instead of the 30-30.I feel my hot loaded 357 has alot
less recoil than any 30-30 loads of mine.158gr at 1600-1800(slightly over factory)would
have better power with little recoil.Only down side I see is trajectory.