My Marlin 1894cl shoots patterns, not groups....

[mergus]

Hello all. Long time lurker here. I want to thank the group at large for all I've learned over the last couple of years hanging out here. But now I've come to a point where I can't figure out what is causing my 1894 CL in 32-20 to shoot so erratically.

To be more specific, I won this rifle at a DU dinner 12 or 13 years ago. It is your standard 1894 CL with a DU medallion in the stock. I put a Leopuld 4x scope on it as my eyes are not what they once were. I've tried Remington and Winchester factory loads through it and gotten 3" to 4" at 50 yards from a solid rest. I have tried .308 90 gr XTP's through it as well as 115 gr .312 Laser cast on top of 11 grains of 2400, and have gotten roughly the same results from all my different hand loads, 3" to 4" at 50 yards. I had a buddy shoot it to see if it was me. He got the same results. All the scope screws are tight and when I try to wiggle various parts of the gun, they all seem tight.

I am out of ideas (other than the barrel being bad???) as to what could be the issue with this gun. Any of you Marlin experts out there ever had this experience with one of these 1894's? Would it be worth sending it to a a lever action specalist gunsmith to have him look at? If so, who would you reccomend?

Thanks in Advance,
Mergus

[AndyM]

not an expert by any sense of the means, but I would slug the bore and see what your exact measurements are. I would also load up some Hornady .312" XTP 100 gr. pistol bullets and try them. There are many articles and data on this site written about the 32 WCF - read the articles and search the posts.

Both your bullets might be too small. I use the .312 XTP or .313 lead bullets. Your 11 g of 2400 powder should work fine. I tried this powder with 8g and 9g, while not as fast plenty accurate enough for me.

[jdad]

I actually had to have Marlin replace the barrel on mine...actually they custom built me an 1894CL because of the problems.

I use the Laser Cast .313 bullet, with 9.5 gr of 2400 and have had excellent results. It could be barrel, bullet or both.

[Hobie]

Check the crown and slug that bore. It will be a process of elimination which you've begun with checking the scope mount.

[jnyork]

+1 for the Lasercast .313 bullets. OR, the Hornady 85 grain XTP .312. I couldnt get the 2400 to shoot at all, switched to Lil Gun and am a happy camper.

PS you didnt say if you have tried switching primers, that can have a pronounced effect on your accuracy. Mine likes the Remington small pistol primers.

[.45colt]

My CL shoots very well,but I wonder if 11gr of 2400 isnt too hot with the lazercast. 10 gr shoots 1700 in my Marlin but began to lead after about 20 rounds. my gun made in '89 was new in box. Jim.

[jdad]

My CL shoots very well,but I wonder if 11gr of 2400 isnt too hot with the lazercast. 10 gr shoots 1700 in my Marlin but began to lead after about 20 rounds. my gun made in '89 was new in box. Jim.

..that's why I dropped it down to 9.5gr. I just begin to get some leading after 50-60 rounds at that load.

[El Chivo]

I also get similar leading with a moderate load with lasercast in my .357, but was told to up the load, not decrease it.

Apparently the reason for the leading was the hard bullet is not obturating and filling the bore and the bullet is melting around the sides.

In another rifle I shoot higher velocities with lasercast with no leading.

[Griff]

Welcome to the Forum. Sounds like you've received some excellent avenues to explore, let us know the outcome.
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Oh yea:


Maybe "new" is a stretch, but I haven't seen a DU Marlin 1894CL

[mergus]

Gentlemen, thank you all for your replies. I am going to scrub the heck out of the bore and try to slug it. Having never done that before, can I assume that driving a soft Mag Tech bullet like the ones I load for my hand ejector .32-20 down the barrel with a dowel rod will work?

Hobie, I checked the muzzle crown and noticed that the lead "splatter" is not present on about 30% of the muzzle crown. The 30% is all in one third of the arc of the crown. Could that be telling me something?

Griff, as soon as I get my son to take a pic of th egun I will post it.

Thanks,
Mergus

[w30wcf]

mergus,
Sorry to hear of your .32-20 troubles. You can try using the soft cast bullet to slug your bore but the best thing I have found is to use oversized lead round balls. 00 Buckshot works well for the .30 to .32 calibers. If you want to PM me your address, I'll put a couple in the mail to you. I'll also throw in a few Lyman 311316 (.313" 120gr. gas checked) bullets for you to try.

I would agree that 11.0/ 2400 is too much for a plain based lead bullet. I would suggest trying 8 grs. of 2400 or 5 grs. of Unique with your Lazercast bullets for better results.

w30wcf

[Hobie]

Gentlemen, thank you all for your replies. I am going to scrub the heck out of the bore and try to slug it. Having never done that before, can I assume that driving a soft Mag Tech bullet like the ones I load for my hand ejector .32-20 down the barrel with a dowel rod will work?

Hobie, I checked the muzzle crown and noticed that the lead "splatter" is not present on about 30% of the muzzle crown. The 30% is all in one third of the arc of the crown. Could that be telling me something?

Griff, as soon as I get my son to take a pic of the gun I will post it.

Thanks,
Mergus

You shouldn't have lead splatter on the crown. That tells me that you are getting severe leading. A probable cause is ill-fitting bullets. They should be .001-.002" over groove diameter. You can't guess your way to this. Slug that bore.

Many folks use swaged round balls sufficiently larger than the supposed groove diameter to completely fill the bore and perhaps come out somewhat elongated. Different techniques will tell you different things. To start just drive a ball through the whole bore. #1 you'll know if there is any variation (loose spots) in the bore. #2 it will give you the basic bore dimension you need as a starting point. Your dowel must fit the bore, not tightly but enough so that it can't bend as you drive the bullet down the bore.

Now, when you're shooting cast bullets you might/should get EVEN distribution of ejecta residue at the crown which should resemble a star. That the ejecta residue (lead, lube or whatever) is all to one side (always the same side?) is not a good sign. It is relatively easy to square up the muzzle and recrown without removing a great deal of metal so don't sweat this for now.

[mergus]

Hello all. I finally had a chance to slug the barrel on my DU 1894CL. Assuming I did it right, the slug mikes out to .3055 in the bore and .311 in the grooves. While I found the whole process interesting, what really caught my attention was that the slug became much more difficult to push through the bore when the slug was in the last couple of inches (I started at the bore).

This has me wondering if the barrel has a tight spot just in front of the chamber causing the bullet to swage down to an undersize diameter and thus affecting accuracy?

Also, I noticed that this gun does not have Micro Groove rifling. Griff, here is a picture of my rifle, a Ducks Unlimited edition I won at a DU dinner.



What do you think, try a soft bullet that will obdurate, or send it back to Marlin?

Thanks again for all your help and advice?

Mergus

[CEMENTHEAD]

The tight spot in front of the chamber may be from the rear sight dovetail in the barrel. Marlins are notorious for this. I suggest, if you want to fix it yourself, you should try firelapping the bore. It's a lot cheaper than rebarreling and you already handload. Beartooth bullets web site forum has alot of people who have had really good success doing this. My .02$. Thanks, Tom

[Hobie]

I think you've found the problem. Firelapping might work.

[mergus]

Firelapping??? I hadn't thought of that. Thanks much, I'm going to go explore Beartooth bullets right now.

John

[CEMENTHEAD]

Hey Mergus,
Found this on Beartooth site, under the FAQ portion :

Firelapping... What is it and what will it do for my gun? :: By on 2001-01-29
Print This FAQ | Share This FAQ

Fire lapping very basically involves shooting a soft, BHN 11, oversize bullet impregnated with a high grade lapping compound through the bore of your firearm at airgun velocities. These abrasive bullets act like self conforming lapping plugs which incrementally remove constrictions in the barrel, uniform it dimensionally and smooth out the tooling and chatter marks in the rifling. Complete fire lapping step by step instructions may be found in the fire lapping chapter in the Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide.

In virtually all firearms it will either greatly reduce or totally eliminate both barrel leading and jacket fouling by smoothing out the tooling marks left in the barrel by the equipment used in barrel manufacture and by easing the sharp corners and edges inside the bore which collect fouling.

In most guns, there will be at least a modest increase in accuracy potential, to often times dramatic improvement in accuracy from increasing the uniformity of the bore dimensionally, and eliminating the constrictions which are common under dovetails in barrels, and barrel bands.

Especially in revolvers where the threaded barrel shank is screwed into the frame of the revolver, dramatic improvements in performance may be achieved. This is particularly true where cast bullets are used in the revolver, because the constriction under the threaded barrel shank (which can be from .002"-. 004" depending on make and caliber), acts like an undersize, bullet sizing die, thus sizing the bullet down under barrel groove dimension, creating an improper bullet to barrel fit. Not only does this condition deteriorate accuracy; it also promotes barrel leading. Fire lapping, properly done eliminates this conditionan.

Finally, fire lapping often times increases the nominal velocity achieved with a given load. This is accomplished by a reduction in the friction coefficient of the barrel. Lapping out even a small portion of the tooling marks in a barrel will reduce the friction coefficient of the barrel, at least to some extent.

Order the Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide for in-depth Information and Step-By-Step instructions on this procedure. Click Here.


A Note Of Caution

You will notice that the first paragraph about fire lapping specified the use of soft BHN 11 oversize bullets. There is a reason for this. The soft bullet will conform and swage down to the tightest part of the barrel, and not "spring back" to near original diameter due to its softness. Thereby the most aggressive cutting action in the barrel is at the point of constriction, and the remainder of the barrel basically gets no lapping action once that soft lapping bullet goes through the constriction. A harder bullet will "spring back" to some degree, and basically lap all parts of the bore at the same rate, thus enlarging everything uniformly, and not addressing the tight spots specifically.

I also mentioned oversize bullets. This is to insure equal lapping action not only on the tops of the lands, but in the bottoms of the grooves at the point of maximum barrel diameter as well. If the bullet is less than maximum groove diameter, it will only wipe off the tops of your lands, thus reducing the actual depth of your rifling. There is a popular practice out there in the shooting industry today to use jacketed bullets for lapping. Please use caution, and consider what I just presented, and the following concepts. Most barrels today are .0005-.0015" over what nominal accepted norms are for bore dimensions. Consequently, when lapping with jacketed bullets the only part of the barrel that gets lapping action is the tops of the lands and the bottoms of the grooves never get touched, which is where most fouling and leading occur, not to mention reducing the depth of your rifling by only wiping out the tops of the lands. Fire lapping isn't complicated, but it is tedious, and must be approached systematically with common sense.


Hope it helps some, Thanks, Tom