The ‘sideways Glock’ guys were right all along…!

[AJMD429]

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Check this out…

https://www.facebook.com/PanteaoProduct ... 703273738/

[Streetstar]

interesting correlation he has between throwing a punch and getting in a gunfight ----

reportedly and with references - that guy has been in more actual civilian gunfights than just about anybody though -----

His firearm of choice reportedly was a Model 10 heavy barrel, J Frame on the ankle, and a Walther PPK at the small of the back --- talk about some perfect 70's packin' pistols !


I normally dont roll around with this knowledge just rolling off the tip of my tongue -- per your discussion on red dots vs peepss, I recently listened to a podcast which Ken HAckathorn was a guest and he mentioned Jim Cirillo specifically

[JimT]

He has "seen the elephant" and I don't discount that. He knows gunfighting and I do not doubt it works at those distances. But for hunting and long range shooting with handguns, you don't tilt them. Try adjusting the sights whether scope, peep sights or open sights .. with the gun tilted. To get your poa and poi the same you have to adjust both windage and elevation if the gun is tilted. Then, if you don't tilt it the same each time, it all changes.

[Streetstar]

He has "seen the elephant" and I don't discount that. He knows gunfighting and I do not doubt it works at those distances. But for hunting and long range shooting with handguns, you don't tilt them. Try adjusting the sights whether scope, peep sights or open sights .. with the gun tilted. To get your poa and poi the same you have to adjust both windage and elevation if the gun is tilted. Then, if you don't tilt it the same each time, it all changes.

correct - primarilly a technique for halitosis distances

[AJMD429]

He has "seen the elephant" and I don't discount that. He knows gunfighting and I do not doubt it works at those distances. But for hunting and long range shooting with handguns, you don't tilt them. Try adjusting the sights whether scope, peep sights or open sights .. with the gun tilted. To get your poa and poi the same you have to adjust both windage and elevation if the gun is tilted. Then, if you don't tilt it the same each time, it all changes.

Yeah, I think this is what he'd do for under 20 feet or a 'snap-shooting' situation - otherwise I'm assuming he uses a two-hand grip anyway.

I have '45 degree offset backup irons' on a couple AR's and yeah they are NOT much fun to sight in, even though at least with the AR ones the horizontal and vertical adjustments on the sights do more or less correspond to real horizontal and vertical when trying to sight-in, and since they are likely being fired from the shoulder, the way those sights are, the 'tilt' will likely be similar every time.

[samsi]

Cirillo was a interesting guy and experimented quite a bit with what did and didn't work. In reading his book I was a bit surprised, but shouldn't have been, to find that he was also an avid handgun hunter.

[Steve in MO]

My instructors at Gunsite knew Jim. They said he was very much the Italian grandfather, loved to laugh and could be very jovial. They also said don't ever let that fool you, because he was a stone killer. In fact, the only person on the Stakeout Squad who killed more bad guys than him was his partner Bill Allard.

[4t5]

https://preview.redd.it/sight-for-sidew ... a0fca5213c

[Streetstar]

He has "seen the elephant" and I don't discount that. He knows gunfighting and I do not doubt it works at those distances. But for hunting and long range shooting with handguns, you don't tilt them. Try adjusting the sights whether scope, peep sights or open sights .. with the gun tilted. To get your poa and poi the same you have to adjust both windage and elevation if the gun is tilted. Then, if you don't tilt it the same each time, it all changes.

Yeah, I think this is what he'd do for under 20 feet or a 'snap-shooting' situation - otherwise I'm assuming he uses a two-hand grip anyway.

I have '45 degree offset backup irons' on a couple AR's and yeah they are NOT much fun to sight in, even though at least with the AR ones the horizontal and vertical adjustments on the sights do more or less correspond to real horizontal and vertical when trying to sight-in, and since they are likely being fired from the shoulder, the way those sights are, the 'tilt' will likely be similar every time.

this is what i thought of too Doc --- the current trend of having a magnified optic -- but then a red dot hung at a 45 degree angle on competition guns ---- have not seen this on a "fighting carbine" ie-- current military or police -- but maybe its out ther e- but seems to be a competition shooting thing

As goofy as it looks -- if it didnt work they wouldnt be doing it though

[mickbr]

Very spurious to me. You turn the fist over in boxing to get power from the shoulder, the shoulder lifting also protects that side of the face, and it protects the pinky knuckles from taking all the impact instead of the centre of the fist. Absolutely nothing to do with holding a gun in a stable non wristbreaking way. And to be totally correct, to mimic an ideal punch his punch should be turned all the way over at the end, aka palm should be facing the floor- so the gun would in his analogy be held totally sideways by then.

It worries me when fellas make very strange paralells, it means they dont know much about one of the subjects. And then I wonder if they BS or bungle the other subjects.

[piller]

He has experience, and I do not. My questions stem from my Left eye dominance and my having been beaten into, and only allowed to, use my right hand as a child. With my artificially mixed up dexterity, would his method work for me? Or, would it make me worse?

[Streetstar]

Very spurious to me. You turn the fist over in boxing to get power from the shoulder, the shoulder lifting also protects that side of the face, and it protects the pinky knuckles from taking all the impact instead of the centre of the fist. Absolutely nothing to do with holding a gun in a stable non wristbreaking way. And to be totally correct, to mimic an ideal punch his punch should be turned all the way over at the end, aka palm should be facing the floor- so the gun would in his analogy be held totally sideways by then.

It worries me when fellas make very strange paralells, it means they dont know much about one of the subjects. And then I wonder if they BS or bungle the other subjects.

Nope -- Jim Cirillo doesnt know much about gunfights -- just blathering on about things tto make him seem cool to the secretary pool at the office parties

[mickbr]

Very spurious to me. You turn the fist over in boxing to get power from the shoulder, the shoulder lifting also protects that side of the face, and it protects the pinky knuckles from taking all the impact instead of the centre of the fist. Absolutely nothing to do with holding a gun in a stable non wristbreaking way. And to be totally correct, to mimic an ideal punch his punch should be turned all the way over at the end, aka palm should be facing the floor- so the gun would in his analogy be held totally sideways by then.

It worries me when fellas make very strange paralells, it means they dont know much about one of the subjects. And then I wonder if they BS or bungle the other subjects.

Nope -- Jim Cirillo doesnt know much about gunfights -- just blathering on about things tto make him seem cool to the secretary pool at the office parties

Im not calling his career into question, but he is blathering on about one subject without doubt. Whether its to seem cool to 'the secretary pool' or subscribers I cant say.

[Bill in Oregon]

Twelve years later and this still makes me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo23qjWav0Q

[4t5]

One from the master https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1jx1TOzxrE&t=343s

[Streetstar]

Very spurious to me. You turn the fist over in boxing to get power from the shoulder, the shoulder lifting also protects that side of the face, and it protects the pinky knuckles from taking all the impact instead of the centre of the fist. Absolutely nothing to do with holding a gun in a stable non wristbreaking way. And to be totally correct, to mimic an ideal punch his punch should be turned all the way over at the end, aka palm should be facing the floor- so the gun would in his analogy be held totally sideways by then.

It worries me when fellas make very strange paralells, it means they dont know much about one of the subjects. And then I wonder if they BS or bungle the other subjects.

Nope -- Jim Cirillo doesnt know much about gunfights -- just blathering on about things tto make him seem cool to the secretary pool at the office parties

Im not calling his career into question, but he is blathering on about one subject without doubt. Whether its to seem cool to 'the secretary pool' or subscribers I cant say.

Well --- i didnt hear him professing to any boxing accolades --- but this video pre-dates the "gangsta rap" sideways holding ---- and the video seems to focus on weak hand shooting , not Weaver stance or doing a perfect cup and saucer presentation ----- as in, not trying to shoot 2" groups at 25 yards, but to end a fight within probably 3 yards

As well, regarding a "fighting stance" --- there is none -- its literally whatever stance you may be in when the brownies drop

[piller]

With a 9mm, my weak hand is more accurate than my strong hand. I think it has to do with my being a natural lefty who was forced into being dextrous instead of sinister.

[JimT]

Shooting Cowboy Action some years ago I always shot my left single action pistol with my left hand and my right single action pistol with my right hand. I wanted to make good hits, especially on the small targets and didn't dare cant the gun.

That said, use what works for you and that you can make work. Don't be influenced by someone else no matter what their experience is. Don't ignore what they say. Try it for yourself. If it does not work for you, go on and do it however works for you. I don't care what the person is expert and very experienced is. Humans are created so wonderfully and differently that there is no "One Size Fits All."

I made really good hits out to several hundred yards doing this ... in front of lots of witnesses. I don't recommend it to anyone else nor do I say it's better than other ways of shooting.

trick shot.jpg