400 gr bullets in a RedHawk .45 Colt

[Scott Tschirhart]

Ashley Ermerson says that the twist rate in a Ruger RedHawk will stabilize a 400 grain cast bullet at 1200 fps.

Is anyone here doing this?

[Ysabel Kid]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around a 4-0-0 grain .45-caliber bullet in a handgun!

And no, the novelty .45-70 revolvers I don't count.

[Grizz]

I shoot a 405Gr bullet from a 5.5 inch .44 Redhawk, but not at that speed. My speeds are down around 950 or so, due to chamber issues. but about 1100 is do-able with the high pressure loads... my goal, when i get around to-it, is about 1050-ish.

[samsi]

That would be a formidable load, but also might be a little more fun than I'm up for. The heaviest I've done in the Redhawk is the Lyman/Gould 457122 at about 1100 fps. After the initial familiarization it was actually pretty easy to manage in DA shooting.

[JimT]

I shot 430's out of the Freedom Arms 454 ... but I never ran them over 850 fps. At 800 fps they were accurate enough to hit a 4 foot x 4 foot metal target at 500 yards when we were at John Linebaugh's. Very mild recoil.

[Grizz]

That would be a formidable load, but also might be a little more fun than I'm up for. The heaviest I've done in the Redhawk is the Lyman/Gould 457122 at about 1100 fps. After the initial familiarization it was actually pretty easy to manage in DA shooting.

actually at 950-ish they are very tractable, not much recoil, I think less than 240Gr full pressure load... somewhere in my notes I have Marshall's recipes. He seemed to like as much pressure as possible. I had to fish around to get a low pressure load, but it's easy going on the wrists and elbows. And it has massive penetration, which I prefer to finding bullets inside an animal.

[Grizz]

I shot 430's out of the Freedom Arms 454 ... but I never ran them over 850 fps. At 800 fps they were accurate enough to hit a 4 foot x 4 foot metal target at 500 yards when we were at John Linebaugh's. Very mild recoil.

I sure would like to learn to do long range shooting like that...

My guess is that with the same bullet weight and equal pressure the 45 will be higher velocity, is this correct?

[JimT]

I shot 430's out of the Freedom Arms 454 ... but I never ran them over 850 fps. At 800 fps they were accurate enough to hit a 4 foot x 4 foot metal target at 500 yards when we were at John Linebaugh's. Very mild recoil.

I sure would like to learn to do long range shooting like that...

My guess is that with the same bullet weight and equal pressure the 45 will be higher velocity, is this correct?

I am not sure ...I never messed with bullets much heavier than 300 gr. in the 45 Colt. You get to the point of diminishing returns quickly.

[piller]

One of the fun things about hanging around here is that a bunch of folks on this forum have information to share.

[Grizz]

Ashley Ermerson says that the twist rate in a Ruger RedHawk will stabilize a 400 grain cast bullet at 1200 fps.

Is anyone here doing this?

by comparison Blaine's 10" BFR stabilized 525Gr 45/70 bullets at 1300Fps . . . . could compare the twist rates . . .

[.45colt]

Too much for this Old Guy. The heaviest slug I ever shot in the .45 was about 325gr out of the Bisley. that was years ago. today if I needed more power I would grab a rifle .

[arclight]

Years ago I cast 405 HPs out of a lee single-cavity mold and sized them down in stages. Shot them out of a Freedom Arms .45 Colt (because Ross Seyfried wrote that the Colt made more sense for heavy bullets than the .454 in the same platform). They were accurate enough at 1,000 fps, but I am recoil sensitive so had to concentrate. Hunted elk one Fall but never got a shot.

[Grizz]

Too much for this Old Guy. The heaviest slug I ever shot in the .45 was about 325gr out of the Bisley. that was years ago. today if I needed more power I would grab a rifle .

I hunted deer in Alaska for subsistence with a 10" 44 SBH and 325Gr cast pb tc bullets. Recoil was modest and the biggest sensation was a pulse straight back into the palm. We made lots of meat and it was about the same effect as a rifle with easier carry.

[.45colt]

I have No doubt that it worked Great Grizz,.Good for You! I don't want to think about another injury to add to the long list of what hurts today. . .

[Scott Tschirhart]

I shoot a 405Gr bullet from a 5.5 inch .44 Redhawk, but not at that speed. My speeds are down around 950 or so, due to chamber issues. but about 1100 is do-able with the high pressure loads... my goal, when i get around to-it, is about 1050-ish.

Grizz, you are the man! That’s where I was headed with this inquiry. My handgun loads are all less than 1,000 fps except for the .327 and.357.

I’m looking to see where a heavy bullet like that will stabilize

[Grizz]

I shoot a 405Gr bullet from a 5.5 inch .44 Redhawk, but not at that speed. My speeds are down around 950 or so, due to chamber issues. but about 1100 is do-able with the high pressure loads... my goal, when i get around to-it, is about 1050-ish.

Grizz, you are the man! That’s where I was headed with this inquiry. My handgun loads are all less than 1,000 fps except for the .327 and.357.

I’m looking to see where a heavy bullet like that will stabilize

I sent some of those 405s to someone in the midwest, and he worked up a load with Marshall's approval that got him 1020fps from a 5.5" redhawk. That load penetrated 13 one gallon jugs of water. Which demonstrates the stability of that load. He also got 1020Fps from a 4" revolver, but it sounds like it is on the ragged edge to me.

Unfortunately Marshall's Beartoothbullet site is gone. The forum seems to be under new management, but there was scads of info on these loads back in the day. I hope I copied and saved his articles!!!

https://www.shootersforum.com/

people often think that this load must recoil hard, but the heavy bullets when they are "detuned" are very manageable. Marshall's load ran 36.4k CUP and got 1100Fps. My load is 28k CUP and should net 1000Fps, but averages 896 from my gun, it needs some work to get there. These are Marshall's measured pressures.

I haven't run the numbers, but the difference between 900 and 1100 fps is a range extension. I doubt it would be noticed at close range because the bullet should pass through any combination of muscle and bone on this continent.

Hope this helps. I use water jugs to compare bullet loads. It tells me what the water does to the bullet. It tells me if the bullet is stable, or NOT. I've had bullets exit the second or third jug sideways and go thru a backup sheet of plywood sideways. Water is a reliable indicator for those things.

The bullets are seated out in the lower crimp groove, and they have to be crimped so they cannot move, they will tie up a gun if they can move.

Grizz

[Bill in Oregon]

Does anyone know if Marshall is OK? I knew a friend of his, Pete Thorniley, who lived not far from me in Southern Oregon. He and Marshall seemed to be good friends and shared a lot of data that was not "publishable," especially regarding duplexing powders. Pete took a lot of the biggest game in Africa with a .444 Marlin, Marshall's bullet designs, and their powder cocktails. Pete worked up his Thorniley Power Factor based on experience in Africa and in southern Oregon on blacktail deer and black bears raiding his family's pear orchard.
Pete was a huge Bible evangelist. He played in his church's band (even built special bass guitars for it) and was an absolutely fearless distributor of Gideon's Bibles. His was a far more conservative cosmology than my own approach, (which has been mellowed by years of influence by a certain Jim Taylor) but I always respected him for his sincerity. Hope he is well, too. Pete told me his Dad was a hard case when it came to faith, but he confessed his belief in Christ shortly before he died, to Pete's great relief.
The old Wagner Creek Cemetery was just one house away across the road from our home in the Wagner Creek Valley, and I often wandered among the monuments there. The front of Pete's father's stone gave his birth and death information, and his Navy experience as I recall, but the back of the stone simply said "Safely home." Those two words have stuck with me lo these many years.

[CowboyTutt]

You guys are barking right up my front porch LOL! I did load up some 360 grain Keith bullets designed I'm pretty sure by Frank E. formerly of Mt. Baldy Bullets. I was getting 1150 fps out of my 5" 1//2 inch Ruger Bisley after uniforming chambers and such (would not want to do this with a gun with erratic 45 Colt chamber sizes, forcing cone and barrel dimensions). I have not shot a 400 grain out of a Ruger 45 Colt yet although I do have a bullet from McPherson for use in the 454 Casull for such a purpose. There sure wouldn't be much room for powder with it though in 45 Colt, and 1200 fps seems pretty darn hot in a factory 6 shot Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk (perhaps the Redhawk is stonger??? I do not know). I think I will pass on that though in a 6 shot Ruger. In my Bisley, my 360 load is quite the handful. A 400ish grain load I'll save for my Casull and 460 S&W guns.

-Tutt

[samsi]

Not quite 400, but Hodgdon's online data has a Cast Performance 395 listed at 1024 fps (7.25" barrel) with 14.3 gr of AA9. Pressure below 32k.

Nothing listed for H110 oddly enough.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Interesting. I’d really like to see where this goes. But it appears that we have additional evidence that such a heavy bullet can be stabilized in a RedHawk. I’m not sure that it needs to go very fast as long as it is stable and accurate.

[Grizz]

Interesting. I’d really like to see where this goes. But it appears that we have additional evidence that such a heavy bullet can be stabilized in a RedHawk. I’m not sure that it needs to go very fast as long as it is stable and accurate.

It is correct that heavies do not have to go "very fast" to achieve their penetration. Momentum is the key to that.

John Linebaugh invented or co-invented the heavy-for-caliber revolvers. His penetration tests are epic. His five shot revolvers are world famous. I think his penetration tests are on line. IIRC, he uses wet newspaper to compare his loads and trap his bullets.

It was reading about his work and talking to Marshall Stanton that led me to try a 325Gr load in the SBH, a proven meat maker, and later on to develop the 405Gr load for the Redhawk. That was following Marshall Stanton's lead with his 444 hard cast bullets.

Mr. Linebaugh has all the info on stabilization and is a much better source of info than i am. I just copied his work and adapted it to what I had.

this link is Taylor's KO calculator and it is how i study the relationship between weight, velocity, and penetration potential.

https://n4lcd.com/calc/ TKO calculator

grizz

[Grizz]

Does anyone know if Marshall is OK?

I don't and am concerned. I hope someone has some good news about his whereabouts. †

[piller]

I have some 325 grain lead bullets for a .45 Colt that I shoot in my Ruger Blackhawk. About 900 fps gives a reasonable kick that is not painful. So far, I have not recovered any bullets. If I go bear hunting, that or my .480 Super Redhawk is going to be with me. The .480 has a few 410 grain LBT style WFN bullets left that are loaded to about 1050 fps. Out of that big chunk of steel, they are not too bad to shoot and they penetrate pretty well. The .480 pushed up around 1400 fps with that bullet will let you know when it goes off. The extra velocity does not seem to give any better penetration in my experience. Could just be what I have shot with it.

[Walt]

Tutt, in answer to your question about the strength of Redhawk revolvers; Max Prasak in his book, "Big Bore Revolvers" wrote that Jack Huntington of JRH Gunsmithing had years before simply installed a .454 cylinder in his 4" .45 Colt Redhawk with no other modifications and that Prasak had shot it and hunted with it extensively. Yet another testament to the degree that Ruger overbuilds their revolvers.

I have frequently shot 325 gr handloads from both Blackhawk and Redhawk revolvers at about 900 fps velocities with good success. Very comfortable to shoot; no sharp recoil and penetration is astounding.

[CowboyTutt]

Walt, thanks for that. That does sound like a really easy conversion for the Redhawk. I wish the same could be done for the Blackhawk using the newer 454 cylinder, but it is a 5 shot, so some other parts would need changing. My Super Blackhawk has a free pawl which might make the conversion a little easier. -Tutt

[Grizz]

Walt, thanks for that. That does sound like a really easy conversion for the Redhawk. I wish the same could be done for the Blackhawk using the newer 454 cylinder, but it is a 5 shot, so some other parts would need changing. My Super Blackhawk has a free pawl which might make the conversion a little easier. -Tutt

what about OAL? the 405s that fit in my redhawk won't fit in a SBH cylinder, how does the 454 cylinder compare in length?

[CowboyTutt]

Grizz, good observation and question. I don't know, but the 454 cylinder does appear longer and butt's up against the rear of the receiver. I suspect they recessed the case heads in the cylinder for its new purpose. Anyone got a 454 Blackhawk cylinder to measure??? -Tutt

[Scott Tschirhart]

I’ve been shooting one of the 4.2 inch round butt .45/.45ACP guns. One of the most comfortable guns to shoot in either caliber with standard loads. The factory wooden grips are just right in my hands and sporty to boot.

But I’m not sure that I would enjoy the heavier “Ruger only” loads in this one.

[Grizz]

I’ve been shooting one of the 4.2 inch round butt .45/.45ACP guns. One of the most comfortable guns to shoot in either caliber with standard loads. The factory wooden grips are just right in my hands and sporty to boot.

But I’m not sure that I would enjoy the heavier “Ruger only” loads in this one.

Scott, it depends on how they are loaded and what the objective is. the 405 at about 950 is not punishing..... something like white box 240s... everyone who shoots mine is surprised. and honestly it could exit the barrel at 800 and still put a world of hurt on whatever it hits. someday, hopefully, I will gather some data in that direction.... including a lighter bullet when I find one I like. something around 365-ish to split the difference between the 325 and the 405 . . . just to see where that goes . .

†

[Walt]

I gave the Redhawk 4" .45 Colt/ACP to my son along with a bunch of 300 gr loads going at 1100 fps to use for shooting pigs. It was not a recreational load in that revolver and I quickly switched to Hogue rubber grips for their their cushioning and hand-filling qualities.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I’ve been shooting one of the 4.2 inch round butt .45/.45ACP guns. One of the most comfortable guns to shoot in either caliber with standard loads. The factory wooden grips are just right in my hands and sporty to boot.

But I’m not sure that I would enjoy the heavier “Ruger only” loads in this one.

Scott, it depends on how they are loaded and what the objective is. the 405 at about 950 is not punishing..... something like white box 240s... everyone who shoots mine is surprised. and honestly it could exit the barrel at 800 and still put a world of hurt on whatever it hits. someday, hopefully, I will gather some data in that direction.... including a lighter bullet when I find one I like. something around 365-ish to split the difference between the 325 and the 405 . . . just to see where that goes . .

†

Interesting. Thank you. I don’t find white box Winchester 240 gr .44 mag ammo to be particularly disturbing.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I had to send my.45 Redhawk back to Ruger because it is not properly lining up chamber mouths with the bore.

But while it is getting fixed, my .454 Redhawk is shooting these 400 grain bullets very well and comfortably.

[CowboyTutt]

Yowza! Tutt

[Scott Tschirhart]

Not bad from the .454 RedHawk.

[.45colt]

I have the Redhawk 45/45acp and I sure wont' be shooting any 400grn loads thru it. . with the stock grip's you need to be careful.

[samsi]

I have the Redhawk 45/45acp and I sure wont' be shooting any 400grn loads thru it. . with the stock grip's you need to be careful.

Yep. My first RH was a 7 1/2" and it had enough heft that is was agreeable to shoot with the factory wood, the shorter barrels not so much.

[piller]

That is why I do not push my Blackhawk in .45 Colt above about 900 (give or take a few) fps with the 325 grain bullets. That velocity is not punishing to the shooter. More than that starts to get uncomfortable quickly. My Blackhawk is 4 5/8 inch. With the factory .45 ACP cylinder in, it is fun.

[Scott Tschirhart]

If I’m going to push it, I have to load something too long to fit in a SAA cylinder.

[piller]

That would certainly prevent firing it out of a Colt or clone. Cannot get it to rotate after loading the cylinder, even in total darkness you know it is the wrong cartridge.

[Scott Tschirhart]

This experiment has gone on the back burner but that may change now that I have deer meat for the freezer.

[JimT]

Quite a few years ago John Linebaugh and I discussed the use of heavy bullets and people pushing them hard. He wrote an article about it and shared the article with me. This is a part of that article. I am sure many of you have read it. It may still be on line .. I am not sure if it is ... but it ought to be. I think I posted it here a while back.

My route is a dependable cast slug, not too hard, not too soft, at a moderate velocity not to exceed 1300 fps and let caliber and bullet weight do the job. CALIBER AND BULLET WEIGHT are the only CONSTANTS we have in external ballistics, since velocity is constantly DIMINISHING VARIABLE. I have tried several avenues and find myself coming back full circle to moderate velocity and dependable cast slugs. Robert Smythe always said, "...not to exceed 1100 / 1200 fps." Jim Taylor has killed quite a bit of big game with his .45 Colt 300 gr. at 1200 fps. My wife and I have shot around 4 Mule Deer and a dozen Antelope with .45 Colts. The loads ranged from 260 Keiths at 900 fps to 250 gr. JHP at 1500 fps. While the JHP always knocks a 1" hole through game they don't drop any quicker than the .45 caliber hole made by the cast slug at 900 fps. In these cases of ours, shots were made from 90 to 130 yards.

[Bill in Oregon]

Thanks for bringing this swell thread back up, fellas.

[AJMD429]

Thanks for bringing this swell thread back up, fellas.

Yep.
I think 800-900 fps heavy hardcast large caliber bullets with wide meplat should make reliable dangerous-game stoppers.

[.45colt]

I re-member years ago John Linebaugh wrote about His Wife killing an Antelope at 90 yards with a standard 900fps load from the Colt. .

[Scott Tschirhart]

One of the problems I had was getting this Redhawk to shoot. I shot mostly patters and no groups.

But it really likes my hunting handload.