A basic AR is so inexpensive now…

[AJMD429]

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Not exactly a Daniel Defense, but I’ve shot lots of rounds through the ‘low-end’ ARs, and they have done fine.

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Now you’ve spent less than $400 and have a functional Citizen’s Rifle… …although you still can’t AIM it…

Then figure out your sight options…(my preferences below)

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…and the sights WILL cost more than the above parts…!

At least slings aren’t too expensive…

Now in reality I DO tend to upgrade charging handles, install adjustable gas blocks, and do-on, but I’m not convinced the brand of lower is critical, nor the upper. An upgraded bolt carrier is not expensive, nor a barrel, if so inclined.

But for those who just want a gun that will fire reliably and hit the target, my experience with the less expensive firearms so far suggests that they do the basic job pretty well. I’m sure if a person was firing as fast as they could, and dropping the firearm in mud and giving it the sort of abuse the military does, some manufacturers might survive a lot better than the low-end ones, but when it comes to firing a few dozen or even a few hundred rounds pretty quickly, I’ve never had a problem. I am more interested in the ability to deal with a pack of dogs, or if necessary, some kind of two legged, predator incident, but don’t really anticipate trying to hold off an army.

[Grizz]

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Not exactly a Daniel Defense, but I’ve shot lots of rounds through the ‘low-end’ ARs, and they have done fine.

IMG_3765.jpeg
IMG_3764.jpeg
IMG_3763.jpeg

Now you’ve spent less than $400 and have a functional Citizen’s Rifle… 8) …although you still can’t AIM it… :?

Then figure out your sight options…(my preferences below)

IMG_3766.jpeg
IMG_3767.jpeg
IMG_3768.jpeg

…and the sights WILL cost more than the above parts…!

At least slings aren’t too expensive… :D

Now in reality I DO tend to upgrade charging handles, install adjustable gas blocks, and do-on, but I’m not convinced the brand of lower is critical, nor the upper. An upgraded bolt carrier is not expensive, nor a barrel, if so inclined.

But for those who just want a gun that will fire reliably and hit the target, my experience with the less expensive firearms so far suggests that they do the basic job pretty well. I’m sure if a person was firing as fast as they could, and dropping the firearm in mud and giving it the sort of abuse the military does, some manufacturers might survive a lot better than the low-end ones, but when it comes to firing a few dozen or even a few hundred rounds pretty quickly, I’ve never had a problem. I am more interested in the ability to deal with a pack of dogs, or if necessary, some kind of two legged, predator incident, but don’t really anticipate trying to hold off an army.

https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/guns-p ... rder=price >>> hard to beat these.

AND > https://www.leapers.com/products/iron-s ... _type=4527

i have a carry handle on one, it's a little cramped but good rear sight. i have the fixed front and rear that fit on any rail on the A1. I like fixed sights, and i can put the BDC scope on all of them between the irons. i have folders on one, but i hate them, too mickey-mouse for something that might get tossed and/or rolled around. i think i still have pop-ups on the AR-47 for in-car reasons, can't remember where i put that one, i guess it's camera shy. :)

amazon has the A2 rear sight for 25$ and the A2 front for 20$, i have these. i have the offsets in a bucket somewhere, never was comfortable with them but IDK why not...

[jeepnik]

I can't figure out why so many people are enamored by a weapons platform that was a poor design and originally built by, like anything military, the lowest bidder.

I'm old enough to remember when the parent cartridge was a varmit round designed for tiny critters. Works pretty well for that. Maybe if we were fighting Hobbits...

[horsesoldier03]

There are a lot of AR Snobs out there that would turn there nose up at a PSA AR. Personally, I love them and have 3, one with the chrome lined SOCOM Barrel, one with the 416R stainless and one with the nitride barrel. The stainless is the most accurate and has a Vortex Scope and the other two both have red dots, they both keep shots within 2" at 100
yards. I had a friend with a Noveske that thought PSAs were stuff until we had them at the range and my stainless actually out shot his Noveske, probably due to his fault but I took the win with grace. His rifle cost him well over 2K and mine was about $700 by the time I added a scope. PSAs are solid shooters and ridiculously cheap.

[Grizz]

I can't figure out why so many people are enamored by a weapons platform that was a poor design and originally built by, like anything military, the lowest bidder.

I'm old enough to remember when the parent cartridge was a varmit round designed for tiny critters. Works pretty well for that. Maybe if we were fighting Hobbits...

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seems like a good reason to me . . . :)

[horsesoldier03]

I can't figure out why so many people are enamored by a weapons platform that was a poor design and originally built by, like anything military, the lowest bidder.

I'm old enough to remember when the parent cartridge was a varmit round designed for tiny critters. Works pretty well for that. Maybe if we were fighting Hobbits...

Anything mechanical is an EVOLUTION, example, the 1911. And my dad told me years ago, never buy a new car the first year it is introduced. When I was in basic, I actually was issue an XM-16, and that was as late as the mid 80s, so they definitely last a while. Lots of mods have evolved since the days of Vietnam. Personally, my first pick would be an M1 Garand provided road marches were not involved. However, the three main drawbacks of the M1 is optics availability, weight, and ergonomics. Even the M16 was a pain getting in and out of a military vehicle, the M4 design was a definite improvement, not to mention that with all the new bullets designs out there you can do a whole lot more than shoot coyotes. If you consider the weight of a 210 rd basic load of ammo, the 147 grain 30-06 round is going to be 13.1 lbs, a 62 grain green tip 5.56 is only 5.25. You could likely cut another 4 lbs on the difference of weight of the rifles. All that weight adds up and transfers to fatigue.

The bottom line though is that the M4 is not designed to be a primary battle rifle, it is for your personal protection. Your primary fight is going to focus on the use of your MK 19 grenade launcher, M2 machinegun, M240 machinegun and the M249, and that is if you dont have tanks artillery, or stykers.

[JimT]

I shot one a few months ago. No recoil to speak of. Easy to hit with. Nothing about it that I cared for other than it did go BANG every time I wanted it to. But if I need a long gun for serious work I prefer my Winchester Model 94 Trapper in .30-30. I don't have to stop and figure out what goes where like I have to with a firearm I am not familiar with. I have used leverguns for more than 60 years and they are firmly stuck in the memory banks.

You who happen to read this ... use what you prefer and what you know. The firearm is not The Weapon. You are. The firearm is just a tool. Keep The Weapon in decent shape and whatever tool you use, you will use it efficiently.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I have a couple of PSA guns and they are very reliable.

Like Jim, I am more likely to grab a levergun for serious use.

[Ysabel Kid]

I have a couple of PSA guns and they are very reliable.

Like Jim, I am more likely to grab a levergun for serious use.

I'm fortunate enough to reside in the home state of Palmetto State Armory. All but one of my AR's I've built. I find it very therapeutic. Have built several for friends for the same reason.

[AJMD429]

I'm old enough to remember when the parent cartridge was a varmit round designed for tiny critters. Works pretty well for that. Maybe if we were fighting Hobbits...

I think the military realized it is preferable (strategy-wise) to wound versus kill. The supply and hospital and medevac logistics are expensive to the adversary, and the morale cost of mangled and wounded buddies is almost as bad as if they are killed. Hitting a couple out of ten on the hill over yonder with a 30 caliber lethal round means eight still shooting at you and someone will retrieve the bodies later. If you wound two with a less-lethal 'varmint' round, you probably tie up four or five pulling them to safety, and distract the rest, plus divert resources.

So I think the AR-15 vs AR-10 or M-14 or Garand is definitely less potent, but from a military standpoint, does the job.

One could argue that for a civilian social-break-down situation, that the 30 caliber with its more-quickly-lethal effect could actually be more important and better. But there is also the learning-curve, and many ordinary citizens haven't shot big guns enough to be comfortable with them, so probably are more likely to hit the target with the 223 vs 308.

Much of the appeal is the customization ability, too. Plus the incredibly low recoil.

[Steve in MO]

I've got several ARs. I still teach the occasional rifle class, and it's the primary rifle everyone brings. I have two Wilson Combat ARs that were gifted to me, but I also have a Frankengun AR, with an off brand lower and a PSA upper. I've run that gun hard, and I've never had an issue with it. If it was the only AR I had, I wouldn't feel bad. I might have $700 in that gun, opposed to what the Wilson guns cost.

However, like Jim and Scott, I'm more likely to have a levergun in the truck when I'm staying local. If I head to St. Louis or Kansas City, there's a good chance I'll have an AR or a shotgun with me. Different environments call for different tools.

[marlinman93]

I bought an Anderson AR15 a very long time ago simply because it was under $400 and I figured why not have one? Never been enamored with them, and haven't shot the one I have hardly at all. Just sits in the safe.
I never understood the people who wanted to build one up when there's so many fully built and warranted guns for less money?
When I got to basic in the USAF in 1969 the M16's were well worn and had unknown thousands of rounds through them. The Air Force accepted the M16 accepted the M16 long before other branches, and those well worn M16's functioned flawlessly for us. They got a bad rap because GI's were told they needed little or no maintenance. So most malfunctions were due to soldiers not keeping their firearms clean.

[6pt-sika]

I no longer own one . But at one point I had I think three 15 lowers two 10 lowers and 7 or 8 uppers all different cartridges but none were 5.56 or 223 . But as to cost I’d suggest buying anything g you might remotely want NOW before the first week of November . You never know what might transpire if this thing goes bad .

[COSteve]

I bought my 2 RRA ARs (carbine and an A4) because my son wanted one and wanted us to be able to shoot together back in 2006 & 2008. The carbine I got first and it's rarely shot anymore except when he wants to shoot his together. The A4 I have scoped and it's my 400 yd 'Apple Shooter' we take out with his Savage Bolt gun and shoot long range out in Pawnee National Grasslands.

I really don't use either AR very much anymore but as to the caliber, it's a ton less expensive than my favored .308 caliber. I shoot that in my M1A as well as my Winchester Model 88, both of which I love to shoot with my son and his 30-06 M1 Garand and/or Winchester Model 70.

However, the .308, even at my reduced cost of reloading is still a bit steep to shoot regularly so I'm drawn to the 5.56 caliber for cost reasons. So much so, that I got a Ruger Mini 14 in early 2015 as it has the same manual of arms as my M1A and M1 Garand. Not one to leave well enough alone, I turned it into a 'Mini M14'.

Now I can get the enjoyment of the M14 / M1A / M1 Garand feel but at a lower cost to shoot. And with the tweaks I've done including a target rear aperture and thinned front sight, my Mini M14 is an honest 1MOA shooter (my son shooting with his better eyes) with my handloaded Hornady 62 grn BTHP bullets I get from MidSouth Shooters.

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[JimT]

That's one reason I shoot .38 Specials ...

I cast my own bullets and use reclaimed/salvaged lead.

POWDER - Bullseye 1 pound $49.00 ... using a 3.0 gr. charge.
1 pound will load 2,333 rounds which is a little over 2 cents per round ... $2.00 per hundred

PRIMERS- $57.00 per thousand (Argentina-made) primers for 100 rounds $5.70

Total cash layout for 100 rounds was $7.70 ... about the same as .22 Long Rifle ammo.

[Steve in MO]

That's one reason I shoot .38 Specials ...

I cast my own bullets and use reclaimed/salvaged lead.

POWDER - Bullseye 1 pound $49.00 ... using a 3.0 gr. charge.
1 pound will load 2,333 rounds which is a little over 2 cents per round ... $2.00 per hundred

PRIMERS- $57.00 per thousand (Argentina-made) primers for 100 rounds $5.70

Total cash layout for 100 rounds was $7.70 ... about the same as .22 Long Rifle ammo.

Jim, what bullet and mold are you using nowadays?

[jeepnik]

I can't figure out why so many people are enamored by a weapons platform that was a poor design and originally built by, like anything military, the lowest bidder.

I'm old enough to remember when the parent cartridge was a varmit round designed for tiny critters. Works pretty well for that. Maybe if we were fighting Hobbits...

Even the M16 was a pain getting in and out of a military vehicle, the M4 design was a definite improvement.

Yep, My kids thought the M-4 was easy to carry, and pleasant to shoot. But they were SAW gunners. Then my eldest did a deployment to Afghanistan. Now a fire team leader he quickly figured out, like so many others, that the fighting there wasn't street to street like it had been in Iraq. He "found" himself an M-14 and was much happier. Well as happy as a kid can be with a bunch of "ragheads" (his words but he earned the right to use it) trying to kill him can be.

[marlinman93]

Well as happy as a kid can be with a bunch of "ragheads" (his words but he earned the right to use it) trying to kill him can be.

I try to be a bit more sensitive since my father inlaw was full Syrian. Spent 40 years in the US Army before retiring.

[jeepnik]

I'm old enough to remember when the parent cartridge was a varmit round designed for tiny critters. Works pretty well for that. Maybe if we were fighting Hobbits...

I think the military realized it is preferable (strategy-wise) to wound versus kill.

I'm quite sure some fellow sitting in his soft cushy chair, you know the type a "chairborne warrior", did all the math post combat and figured all that out. I'll simply quote was a rather experienced fellow once passed on.

"If you enemy is down and moving, shoot him twice more, preferably in the head. If your enemy is down and not moving, shoot him once more, preferably in the head. Lots of folks have been killed by dead people and bayonets mean you have to get too close."

By the way, most of our enemies these days don't play by WWII, Korea or Vietnam rules.

[JimT]

Jim, what bullet and mold are you using nowadays?

These two:

SAECO #382 160 gr. SWC

LYMAN #358477 158 gr. RNFP

[Sarge]

January 2023, KYGun Co had a one day sale on Anderson optics-ready M4gerys for $399.32 shipped. I got the last one. It came with a railed, same-plane gas block and a usable milspec trigger. I eventually added Troy flip up irons, a Rock River National Match trigger and a Hawke 6x36 prism scope. It has been nothing but reliable and is 'practically accurate' as the Armalite HBAR it replaced.

[Sixgun]

When I hear the word “inexpensive”, poorly machined parts made from inferior materials comes to mind……yea, they may work for a while but quality guns are made more slowly on better machinery. “Mil Spec” is another word I don’t like……it goes like this—-plus or minus a few thousandths…..…the materials are still substandard. It’s been that way since …..ever….suicide guns and Belgium junk from the 1880’s, department store “seconds”, junk from Italy and South America….

I’ve been a

[COSteve]

So Sixgun, are you saying that your Colt M4 AR 6940 is 'substandard' because Colt markets it as "fully Mil Spec"?

[AJMD429]

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Sixer, What scope do you have on that Colt AR…?

[COSteve]

Seriously, Sixgun has some good points and even though I'm not a fan of 'plastic and aluminum', I do have my RRA A4, 'Apple Shooter' I bought new in 2008. It's totally NOT Mil Spec with it's great 2 stage trigger and excellent action. Also, it wasn't cheap as I paid slightly over $1k for the basic A4 in 2008 as I wanted a good version and it had a good rep. However, as you can see, I just couldn't keep it dressed in plastic so I got a walnut set of stocks and then made the pistol grip patterning it after a friend's plastic target version.

When I'm 'on' and the wind is quieted down out at our long range shooting spot in Pawnee National Grasslands in NW Colorado, my 12x scope and my handloaded 68 grn Hornady BTHPs over TAC with Remington 7½ primers in Winchester brass allows me to smack lunchbox sized apples at 400 yds. I'd say that's decent and no, Sixgun, it isn't a Colt.

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[Sixgun]

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Sixer, What scope do you have on that Colt AR…?

Nightforce NXS……positive adjustments and no need to tap the scope so the adjustments falls into place…..most cheap scopes sometimes will take a shot or two to show the difference in impact after adjusting.

It’s my match rifle, single loaded with 80 gr.Sierra’s. Brass gets used one time. Put the cartridge in the chamber by hand and hit the release so it engraves the rifling the exact same way each time…….

[COSteve]

BTW, of the 2 I've shown in this thread, I get much, much more pleasure trying to hit a bowling pin at 300 yds with my Mini M14 than I ever do hitting apples with my A4 at 400 yds. Call me old school but I just will never respect the M16 /AR platform. I was stuck with it as a personal long gun when dismounted in VN but luckily had my 90mm main gun, M-2, and 1911 to rely on most of the time.

[jeepnik]

I know I pan the AR15/M16 frequently. But don't make the mistake of thinking I don't own one. I have a Stag lefty. I don't use it much. In fact, only when one of the kids is here. Why do I keep it. The boys bought if for me.

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Though push come to shove this is my first choice.