California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

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California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#1 Post by AJMD429 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:55 am

PhotoSuckit Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#2 Post by gamekeeper » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm

I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#3 Post by jeepnik » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm

gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
To be correct, the first non-native american settlers came by ship. They subjugated the local population and put them to work. Then again the Spanish had lots of practice by then in dealing with locals.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#4 Post by gamekeeper » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:44 pm

jeepnik wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
To be correct, the first non-native american settlers came by ship. They subjugated the local population and put them to work. Then again the Spanish had lots of practice by then in dealing with locals.
Yes but the Spaniards weren't Americans... :wink:
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#5 Post by jeepnik » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:44 pm

gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:44 pm
jeepnik wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
To be correct, the first non-native american settlers came by ship. They subjugated the local population and put them to work. Then again the Spanish had lots of practice by then in dealing with locals.
Yes but the Spaniards weren't Americans... :wink:
Neither were quite a few of those in wagons.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#6 Post by gamekeeper » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:18 am

jeepnik wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:44 pm
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:44 pm
jeepnik wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
To be correct, the first non-native american settlers came by ship. They subjugated the local population and put them to work. Then again the Spanish had lots of practice by then in dealing with locals.
Yes but the Spaniards weren't Americans... :wink:
Neither were quite a few of those in wagons.
Yes but weren't they considered to be Americans on entry to your country, just like that old Italian "Sixgun".... :lol:
From his weapons on the open road no man should step one pace away, you don't know for certain when you're out on the road when you might have need of your spear.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#7 Post by m.wun » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:19 am

I'll consider myself behind enemy lines!
What in the wild world of sports is going on here

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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#8 Post by 3leggedturtle » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:28 am

gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
Prolly the same thing the fighting Brits of WW1 would say about Britain today. Too bad there isn’t a reset button! Todd/3leg
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#9 Post by jeepnik » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:39 am

3leggedturtle wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:28 am
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
Prolly the same thing the fighting Brits of WW1 would say about Britain today. Too bad there isn’t a reset button! Todd/3leg
I just want to know when Britain is going to return all of those firearms the citizens of the US loaned to them during WWII. They said they'd return them when they didn't need them anymore.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#10 Post by gamekeeper » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:52 am

jeepnik wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:39 am
3leggedturtle wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:28 am
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what those brave men and women who travelled in covered wagons to settle in California would say.... :(
Prolly the same thing the fighting Brits of WW1 would say about Britain today. Too bad there isn’t a reset button! Todd/3leg
I just want to know when Britain is going to return all of those firearms the citizens of the US loaned to them during WWII. They said they'd return them when they didn't need them anymore.
Tis indeed a pity brave folks fought and died for both our country's to let the timid souls take over :(

As for all those firearms that were generously given by the ordinary people of the USA, i I have tried to find out what happened to them, some say they were dumped in the sea but I have not seen any real evidence. Perhaps the British government should donate a sizable sum to the NRA as it would probably be impossible to return them to the original owners even if the guns were found.
From his weapons on the open road no man should step one pace away, you don't know for certain when you're out on the road when you might have need of your spear.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#11 Post by 3leggedturtle » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:55 am

[/quote]

I just want to know when Britain is going to return all of those firearms the citizens of the US loaned to them during WWII. They said they'd return them when they didn't need them anymore.
[/quote]

They returned them alright, but it was to the sea!
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#12 Post by gamekeeper » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:20 pm

I thought this might be of interest, sorry it's off topic.

By Frank Miniter,

Though every Englishman should hear what this particular rifle has to say about the Olympics, England and individual rights, I didn’t set out to embarrass this particular English journalist. It’s just that he had it coming.

Let’s just call him Stephen Grey, as that’s his real name. He’s not a bad sort. Grey was educated at England’s famed St. Alban’s School and studied philosophy at Oxford. He has outsized ears and somehow seems too tall for his boyish face. These features give him a look of young innocence you soon find is matched by sincerity. Then you run into his intellect and really like him. He wrote his last book, Into the Viper’s Nest, after being imbedded with soldiers in Afghanistan. He saw firsthand what the Taliban did to women. He knows all about the barbaric things al-Qaeda has done to a few of his colleagues. He knows jihadists consider civilians to be fair game. He knows about much uglier things than these. Nevertheless, he doesn’t think people should have the right to have firearms for self-defense.

Grey was seated across a table from me at a small dinner party some months ago in Washington, D.C., saying things like, “Americans need to give up their guns. They must become responsible citizens of the world.” Meanwhile, the other writers around the table—people who know my background—were glancing at me, bracing for the counterattack.

I stayed quiet as he described his utopian vision of a disarmed world like John Lennon singing “Imagine no possessions … I wonder if you can … . ” I wanted him to be fully committed before I engaged.

Minutes later, as he paused to view the effect of his anti-gun offensive on a table full of Americans, I opted for an attack he likely hadn’t encountered before. I didn’t think he’d be swayed by crime statistics. And if I cited the dramatic English history of individual rights—and the loss thereof—he’d probably quote Friedrich Nietzsche’s Beyond Good and Evil to contend there is no absolute right and wrong and therefore no real individual rights. That philosophical discussion, as interesting as it might be, would be a smokescreen for his retreat. What I needed was a way at the truth he hadn’t encountered before, so I drew him in with the true story of a particular Springfield Model 1903.

“Stephen,” I began, “I understand that a world without guns in private hands, and therefore a world where a 110-pound woman can no longer shoot down a 200-pound rapist, is appealing to you. But let me tell you about a very special rifle. Its story just might make you rethink your views.”

He eyed me over his whiskey and soda.

This particular rifle, I explained, is chambered in .30-’06 Sprg. It was built in 1905 or 1906 in Springfield, Mass. It’s a bolt-action Springfield Model of 1903 with the serial number 264631. Major John W. Hession (1877-1961), an American long-range competition shooter, purchased the rifle. He likely bought it in 1906. He topped it with a J. Stevens Co. riflescope and took it to the range. He found the rifle was so accurate that he took it to England to compete in the Olympics in 1908 at the Bisley Range. Then, in 1909, he used the rifle to set a world record at 800 yards at Camp Perry. At the time The Piqua Leader-Dispatch (a newspaper that went out of business in 1919) ran the headline “World’s Record is Broken By Hession” on its front page. The feat made him a star. So much so that the June 1911 issue of Forest and Stream reported that when Hession competed at the DuPont Gun Club they were “especially pleased to have Mr. Hession with them. He is regarded by critics as the foremost long-range rifle shot in the world. His most remarkable performance, and the one which brought him the most fame, was at Camp Perry during 1909. At this time he made 67 consecutive bullseyes at 800 yards, a record never before equaled nor since broken.”

Hession was a top long-range competitor well into the 1940s. He won the Wimbledon Cup in 1932. And that wasn’t his first victory there. The Chicago Daily News Almanac and Year-Book for 1921 lists Hession as the winner of the Wimbledon Cup in 1919 as well. In fact, a Remington ad in Arms & The Man in 1914 boasted that Hession used Remington ammunition to win the Marine Corps Cup Match in 1913.

His impact on competitive shooting earned him a parting tribute in the April 1962 issue of American Rifleman. His obituary ran just after one for Col. Townsend Whelen. It reported that “one of his major achievements was to set four world records in one day. This he did on July 3, 1925 while competing in the Eastern Small Bore Championships at Sea Grit, New Jersey. In accomplishing this he fired 102 shots all of which, including sighting shots, were bullseyes.”

Clearly Hession was a renowned rifleman. He also had an understandable attachment to this particular 1903 Springfield. Such a profound attachment, in fact, that he later did something even more remarkable with the rifle.

World War II Gun Drive
After World War I England passed gun-control laws that mostly disarmed its citizenry. The belief that there should be “a rifle in every cottage,” as proposed by England’s Prime Minister, Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, in 1900 was finished. According to the 1689 Bill of Rights “subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law.” This changed with England’s Firearms Act of 1920. Its restrictions on the private ownership of firearms was partly sold to a war-weary public by politicians fanning fears that a surge in crime might occur because of the large number of firearms available following the war. Another justification for severely restricting firearm ownership was to fulfill a commitment to the 1919 Paris Arms Convention.

Whatever the rationale, the Firearms Act of 1920 passed and required an English citizen who wanted to own a firearm to first obtain a firearm certificate. The certificate, which was good for three years, specifically listed the firearm a person was approved to own and listed the amount of ammunition he or she could buy or possess. The police even had the power to exclude anyone who had “intemperate habits” or an “unsound mind.” Applicants for certificates also had to convince the police they had a good reason for needing a certificate. The 1920 law did not affect those who owned shotguns, but it gave government officials complete control over who could own handguns and rifles.

In 1933 the English Parliament next passed the Firearms and Imitation Firearms Bill. It increased the punishment for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime. Possession of a real or imitation firearm was also made an offence unless the person could show he had the firearm for “a lawful object.” A few years later England passed the 1937 Firearms Act. It extended restrictions to shotguns and granted chief constables the power to add conditions to individual firearm certificates. Clearly the power was in the hands of the state, not the individual.

Predictably such restrictions reduced the number of firearms in law-abiding citizens’ hands. Then came the Battle of Dunkirk in 1940. As the German war machine advanced, the British Expeditionary Force evacuated back across the English Channel. The retreat was costly. In their haste British troops abandoned most of their equipment. The massive loss of military arms, combined with the fact that the English people had been mostly disarmed, left the British people almost helpless before the advance of the Third Reich.



Luckily, they had gun-owning friends across the Atlantic. In 1940 a group of Americans, headed by C. Suydam Cutting, moved quickly to help rearm England’s citizens. They established the “American Committee for Defense of British Homes” and ran an ad in the November 1940 issue of American Rifleman that read in part: “British Civilians, undergoing nightly air raids, are in desperate need of Firearms – Binoculars – Steel Helmets – Stop-Watches – Ammunition.” The ad then said, “If you possess any of these articles you can aid in the battle of Britain by sending these materials to American Committee for Defense of British Homes.”

Hession, who was then working for Winchester Arms, decided to make a statement. He sent his prized Springfield Model 1903 to the American Committee for Defense of British Homes. Before he did he had two plates attached to its stock. The one on the rifle’s butt read: “This rifle was used by Major John W. Hession” and was used “in winning Olympics Bisley England 1908 – Grand Aggregate Camp Perry 1908 – Worlds 800 YD. Record Camp Perry 1909 … .” A plate placed on the rifle’s fore-end read: “FOR OBVIOUS REASONS THE RETURN OF THIS RIFLE AFTER GERMANY IS DEFEATED WOULD BE DEEPLY APPRECIATED.”

Hession’s rifle was shipped to England. Before the end of the war the NRA alone sent more than 7,000 private firearms to England. The U.S. government, of course, sent many more. Congress passed the Lend-Lease Act in March 1941. Almost immediately, quantities of “U.S. Rifle, Cal. .30, M1” and others were headed across the Atlantic.

Winston Churchill was appreciative. He wrote in Their Finest Hour: “When the ships from America approached our shores with their priceless arms, special trains were waiting in all ports to receive their cargoes. The Home Guard in every county, in every village, sat up through the night to receive them ... . By the end of July we were an armed nation ... . Anyhow, if we had to go down fighting … a lot of our men and some women had weapons in their hands … .”

England, of course, was victorious after American troops entered the war and made the difference. And wonderfully, after the war Hession’s rifle found its way back from England to Hession. It can now be seen in the NRA’s National Firearms Museum in Fairfax, Va.

Flash Forward to the 2012 Olympics
By this time Grey had finished his whiskey and soda and was staring at the melting ice at the bottom of his glass. Even though he was dry, I wasn’t going to let him off without bayoneting the last of his anti-gun point of view. So I said, “Perhaps it is too obvious at this point to use the old axiom ‘those who don’t know their history are bound to repeat it,’ nevertheless today, sadly, Britain is again a disarmed nation.”

So disarmed, I pointed out, that law-abiding residents were helpless when Tottenham’s gangster youth decided to loot stores, mug residents and vandalize automobiles in August 2011 after police had shot and killed a person following a car chase.

Tottenham’s High Road was ground zero for the riots, which have an interesting tie-in to the history outlined here. The “Tottenham Outrage” of 1909—yes, the same “Tottenham” where the 2011 riots took place—was a famous gunfight that exhibited a very different English character.

Two men in Tottenham, armed with semi-automatic handguns, attempted to rob a payroll truck, but when the guards fought back the robbers fled on foot. The chase lasted two hours and covered about six miles as officers and armed civilians pursued the robbers. In the end one of the thieves committed suicide and the other later died in surgery. One officer and one civilian were also killed. The bravery of the officers and civilians prompted the creation of the Kings Police Medal and the funeral processions for the slain officer and the civilian passed through streets lined with mournful Londoners.

Yes, a lot has changed since the English people gave up their right to bear arms.

These days, to obtain a firearm certificate in England the police must be convinced that a person has “good reason” to own a firearm, and that he can be trusted with it “without danger to the public safety or to the peace.” English firearms licenses are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting, collecting or work-related reasons for ownership. And no, since 1946, self-defense has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm—nor has national defense. So those armed civilians who helped the police in the Tottenham Outrage would, at best, only be bystanders today and at worst be victims.

Indeed, England’s Firearms Act of 1997 banned the private ownership of handguns almost completely. The ban is so restrictive that even England’s Olympic pistol team had to go abroad to practice. That became such a national embarrassment that the English government passed a special dispensation to allow the shooting events to be held in England during the 2012 games.

It’s also worth noting that at the opening ceremonies for the 1908 Olympics held in England—the one Hession had competed in—the USA team noticed there was no American flag among the national flags flying in the stadium. As a result, team USA’s captain and flag-bearer, Martin Sheridan, refused to dip the Stars and Stripes as he passed King Edward VII’s box during the parade of athletes. “This flag dips to no earthly king,” Sheridan later explained.

After relating all of this history to Grey, I ended with the moral of the story: “Now don’t you fret Grey, if your people ever need to protect their freedom again from threats domestic or foreign, thanks to the NRA, Americans will be there to help rearm your populace all over again.”

He didn’t even attempt a retreating volley.

Like I said earlier, the British government should donate a sizable sum to the NRA.
From his weapons on the open road no man should step one pace away, you don't know for certain when you're out on the road when you might have need of your spear.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#13 Post by jeepnik » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:42 pm

gamekeeper wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:18 am
jeepnik wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:44 pm
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:44 pm
jeepnik wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm


To be correct, the first non-native american settlers came by ship. They subjugated the local population and put them to work. Then again the Spanish had lots of practice by then in dealing with locals.
Yes but the Spaniards weren't Americans... :wink:
Neither were quite a few of those in wagons.
Yes but weren't they considered to be Americans on entry to your country, just like that old Italian "Sixgun".... :lol:
Nope, by that time you had to apply for citizenship. Many didn't bother, and their kids who were born here were Americans. So once the original immigrants died off the family was all American.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#14 Post by gamekeeper » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:45 am

jeepnik wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:42 pm
gamekeeper wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:18 am
jeepnik wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:44 pm
gamekeeper wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:44 pm

Yes but the Spaniards weren't Americans... :wink:
Neither were quite a few of those in wagons.
Yes but weren't they considered to be Americans on entry to your country, just like that old Italian "Sixgun".... :lol:
Nope, by that time you had to apply for citizenship. Many didn't bother, and their kids who were born here were Americans. So once the original immigrants died off the family was all American.
Jeepnik, I can't argue with you, it's your history and your country, I was only trying to point out the different calibre of people from the early days to now as I see it, obviously there are still strong patriotic people in California and I hope they can turn the tide against the way California's politicians see the future as a US state.
As a limey I glean a lot of what I know about the USA from you guys on this forum, so your input is most welcome as I continue to learn.
BTW No offense to "Sixgun" I know he is proud of his Italian ancestry but he is a 100% red bloodied American. I only wish I was.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#15 Post by jeepnik » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:21 am

GK, I'll agree, there certainly were a different breed. No matter where they came from they had stout hearts and stouter bodies.

You're right, there are good people in California. But it takes something special to get them out to vote. And getting them out gets harder and harder when they see their will ignored by politicians and judges.

I use the ban on gay marriage a few years ago as the best example. It was illegal. A judge decided the law wasn't legal so allowed it.
The citizens passed a law (we have the initiative process here that allows the citizens to go around the politicians to have their way)) banning gay marriage.
A judge declared it unconstitutional under the state constitution.
The citizens amended the state constitution.
Then a federal judge declared the amendment to our state constitution unconstitutional under the federal constitution. So much for states rights!

The will of the people was thwarted by special interest groups who shopped around and found judges with their same political opinions to make judgments in their favor.

Pretty much takes the wind out of the sails of the voters when they have been thrice over ridden by judges and back by politicians who's primary goal is to get reelected.
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Re: California isn't part of the U.S. any more....

#16 Post by BlaineG » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:39 pm

"Pretty much takes the wind out of the sails of the voters when they have been thrice over ridden by judges and back by politicians who's primary goal is to get reelected."

Just like Washington State. The socialist state pretty much ignores law passed by the citizenry, except of course, for that which supports the socialist agenda. :evil:
“I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.”
― Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience

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