What's the deal with some cops...?

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AJMD429
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What's the deal with some cops...?

#1 Post by AJMD429 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:23 am

Was this lowlife anal sphincter jerk hyped up on steroids and meth, or what...?
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#2 Post by jeepnik » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:34 pm

While we don't know the whole story, she was politely explaining hospital policy, and had someone in authority on the phone. HIs reaction was way out of proportion. He needs someone to explain that he isn't the end all be all of authority in every situation.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#3 Post by BlaineG » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:55 pm

Every once in awhile.... :roll:
(If I was in peril, I'd still rather him show up than some pansy)
If he's allowed to keep his job, he needs a good long unpaid rest and psych eval....
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#4 Post by Griff » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:25 pm

The guy was a truck driver, and under Federal law; who has been involved in an accident where a vehicle cannot be moved under it's own power, and emergency services are required, is obligated to submit either blood, breath or urine sample to determine if the truck driver was under the influence. In this case, Federal law supersedes both State Law, and certainly this Hospital's policy. As the driver was unconscious, he couldn't do a breathalyzer test, and urine is probably problematic, blood was the best options.

The officer was put in a bad position because the driver was unconscious, and this nurse with her piece of paper was, in fact, interfering with the officer in the performance of his duties. Even my son, who dislikes the thin blue line, agrees the nurse was in the wrong. Stupid police chief for not backing up his officer.

This is the cut & dried of the legalities of the incident after viewing some other media and gathering more facts. Could the situation have been better handled? Probably, but we don't know enough of the ENTIRE story. Most State Patrols would be dealing with this, and how it is to be handled, more so than a city officer.

If you were to take the side of the nurse without looking into the matter I know of this little group of people that goes by "ANTIFA" you might like to hang out with.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#5 Post by FWiedner » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:02 pm

A typical cop exercising his authori-tye.

Just another day abusing the helpless and otherwise law abiding.

Ho hum.

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#6 Post by wecsoger » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:51 pm

Federal law supersedes both State Law, and certainly this Hospital's policy

Well, yes, but I'm not seeing it.

This guy, once his got his blood is going to prosecute the driver locally, in the city with whatever charge they have for impaired driving.

Far as I've read, he's city, not state police, etc.

Regardless, you gotta get a warrant, then shut up and get a warrant. Ain't that hard, couple phone calls, maybe a fax or so.

Don't know Utah, but Ohio (been there, made the arrests, got the convictions) has a time limit between when you make the initial contact/arrest and the breath test.

Regardless, even if it was over the time limit, it's still evidence for court.

Even more regardless, there is NO reason for the arrest-at-any-cost attitude, escalation, and overreaction on this guy's part.

Kidnapping and assault charges, anyone?

Even if he was 100% in the right, his actions were of a spoiled child, not an alleged professional.

While firing would be an option, bust him down, loss of rank, loss of seniority, meter patrol or evidence room inventory for a decade or so works too.

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#7 Post by jeepnik » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Can't agree that the officer was anywhere near correct in his actions. There was no reason to loose his temper and manhandle a woman trying to do her job. He could have simply gone to her supervisor and if needed on up the chain of command.

I wonder what his reaction would be if his wife or daughter where treated in that manner.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#8 Post by AJMD429 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:33 pm

Regardless, you gotta get a warrant, then shut up and get a warrant. Ain't that hard, couple phone calls, maybe a fax or so.
Exactly.

You use force when no other alternative will suffice, and when there is no time for a peaceful resolution.

That guy was an example of the reason the Second Amendment was deemed necessary. He'd have proudly served in Hitler's military, no doubt.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#9 Post by gamekeeper » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:07 am

Whether or not he had the law on his side there was no need for for use of force, I sure hope that nurse gets to give him a tetanus shot in the butt some day.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#10 Post by jeepnik » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:16 am

gamekeeper wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:07 am
Whether or not he had the law on his side there was no need for for use of force, I sure hope that nurse gets to give him a tetanus shot in the butt some day.
And misses and hits his testicles.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#11 Post by 44shooter » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:01 pm

Notice how they always stick together. The other officers look uncomfortable and one tries to calm the arresting officer. But, none stop him, or tell him to knock it off.

It's an illegal arrest and therefore an assault in their presence. Someone should have emptied a can of OC in his face and cuffed him.

Hospitals have policies for transferring samples to LE, attorneys, MEs, etc. There are patient rights and privacy laws and ethics to consider. They don't do this just to jam up cops. HIPAA is Federal too, and hospitals get fined big time for violations.

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#12 Post by Griff » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:04 pm

You guys are wrong. This guy the cop brought to the hospital was a truck driver. (Check other sources). And, under federal law, if a truck is involved in an accident where someone is killed, any vehicle has to be towed from the scene, the driver has to be give either blood, breathalyzer, or urine to test. No warrant required, it's a condition of your class A license. The nurse simply has no say. And therefore, was in the wrong. News sources say a vehicle ran into the truck, setting it on fire and the truck driver was taken to the hospital. It doesn't matter whether the truck driver was a fault or not, he has to be given one of the three tests.

As I said before, it certainly could have been handled better. If the cop had simply explained Federal DOT Rules to the nurse, it probably wouldn't have been the mess it is. Here's the explosive police chase and crash that led to nurse's arrest.

Here's the Federal DOT regulations on when testing is to occur: https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/d ... ting-occur
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#13 Post by jeepnik » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:35 pm

44shooter wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:01 pm
Notice how they always stick together. The other officers look uncomfortable and one tries to calm the arresting officer. But, none stop him, or tell him to knock it off.

It's an illegal arrest and therefore an assault in their presence. Someone should have emptied a can of OC in his face and cuffed him.

Hospitals have policies for transferring samples to LE, attorneys, MEs, etc. There are patient rights and privacy laws and ethics to consider. They don't do this just to jam up cops. HIPAA is Federal too, and hospitals get fined big time for violations.
It's not just patients rights and local laws. The laws concerning the transfer of patient information are federal. Look up the HIPPA regs. this nurse had no choice. Had she complied with the officer's illegal request she would have been subject to dismissal, civil suit, and possible criminal charges.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#14 Post by Griff » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:44 pm

jeepnik wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:35 pm
44shooter wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:01 pm
Notice how they always stick together. The other officers look uncomfortable and one tries to calm the arresting officer. But, none stop him, or tell him to knock it off.

It's an illegal arrest and therefore an assault in their presence. Someone should have emptied a can of OC in his face and cuffed him.

Hospitals have policies for transferring samples to LE, attorneys, MEs, etc. There are patient rights and privacy laws and ethics to consider. They don't do this just to jam up cops. HIPAA is Federal too, and hospitals get fined big time for violations.
It's not just patients rights and local laws. The laws concerning the transfer of patient information are federal. Look up the HIPPA regs. this nurse had no choice. Had she complied with the officer's illegal request she would have been subject to dismissal, civil suit, and possible criminal charges.
So, at best, we have a case of conflicting regulations. However, the truck driver doesn't have any right to refuse the test according to the conditions of his driver's license and employment. And said results must be given to both his employer and the DOT before he can be released back to his driving job. If the nurse was an emergency room nurse, she should have been equally aware of the DOT requirements.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#15 Post by 44shooter » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:48 pm

i believe you on the DOT regulations but it is not police or hospital responsibility to enforce it. It is like you said a condition of his CDL. The responsibility for being tested falls on his employer or himself if a private contractor.

If this were a legitimate reason to obtain without consent, a large hospital in a major metropolitan area would have it in policy.

In any case, he should have left and obtained a warrant. If a judge won't sign a warrant, the police get no samples.

Timeliness is not a concern either, trauma patients are routinely drawn upon arrival and many times in transit by EMS. The hospital lab probably already tested him for blood alcohol and urine drugs. Get a warrant or wait til the patient can give consent and you can have the admission samples.

I suspect this officer was hoping the patient was driving dirty to deflect liability of the police chase crash.

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#16 Post by jeepnik » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:14 pm

Griff wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:44 pm
jeepnik wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:35 pm
44shooter wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:01 pm
Notice how they always stick together. The other officers look uncomfortable and one tries to calm the arresting officer. But, none stop him, or tell him to knock it off.

It's an illegal arrest and therefore an assault in their presence. Someone should have emptied a can of OC in his face and cuffed him.

Hospitals have policies for transferring samples to LE, attorneys, MEs, etc. There are patient rights and privacy laws and ethics to consider. They don't do this just to jam up cops. HIPAA is Federal too, and hospitals get fined big time for violations.
It's not just patients rights and local laws. The laws concerning the transfer of patient information are federal. Look up the HIPPA regs. this nurse had no choice. Had she complied with the officer's illegal request she would have been subject to dismissal, civil suit, and possible criminal charges.
So, at best, we have a case of conflicting regulations. However, the truck driver doesn't have any right to refuse the test according to the conditions of his driver's license and employment. And said results must be given to both his employer and the DOT before he can be released back to his driving job. If the nurse was an emergency room nurse, she should have been equally aware of the DOT requirements.
HIPPA will trump it. Think not. Next time you visit you next medical facility, ask them about HIPPA. They are dead serious about enforcing it. Or they are out of business. Not only due to the loss of accreditation being possible but the cost of the resulting lawsuits.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#17 Post by BlaineG » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:38 pm

The LEO could have been 100% correct, and the nurse could have been in the wrong.
Ok, Fine.
Now I'm waiting for some sort of "excuse" for being brutal. No Man treats an unhostile person in that manner. That woman abuser should have his butt kicked.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#18 Post by Old Ironsights » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:45 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:38 pm
The LEO could have been 100% correct, and the nurse could have been in the wrong.
Ok, Fine.
Now I'm waiting for some sort of "excuse" for being brutal. No Man treats an unhostile person in that manner. That woman abuser should have his butt kicked.
According to The Daily Mail he's now on leave pending Criminal Prosecution.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/art ... table.html

Note that apparently there is a 2016 SCOTUS decision that non-medical blood samples cannot be drawn from an unconscious patient without a warrant.

So, granting that Griff is correct about DOT, it would seem to be a no-brainer, 5 minute process to get a Warrant.

Doing it WITHOUT a warrant is no different than kicking down a door without a warrant.

And yes, the ER already did a full workup, especially for ETOH and other chemicals that can really screw with anesthesia. So when the PD gets the warrant, the Hospital can simply hand over the Labs WITHOUT needing to draw more.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#19 Post by AJMD429 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:59 pm

Doing it WITHOUT a warrant is no different than kicking down a door without a warrant.
....of course these days, that's ok, if it is in regards to an alleged 'NFA weapon', or its pharmachologic counterpart, a 'controlled substance'... :roll:

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#20 Post by Old Savage » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:41 pm

This officer should be fired, sued and prosecuted. Police brutality, assault and battery under color of authority. There is no excuse for his attack on this nurse.

Be aware, there are civilian controls that will come after such abuse of authority. Whether anyone likes it or not this is a fact. This guy chose to ruin his career in a moment.

Sounds like cooler heads are prevailing but it will not end there
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#21 Post by gcs » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:50 pm

No reason to go off the rails, got an issue? call your superior, let them earn their pay grade.

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#22 Post by Pisgah » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:12 pm

DOT rules or no, the Supreme Court ruled in 2016 that in order to get a blood sample police must either have a warrant, the person's consent, or the person must be under arrest already. The trucker was not under arrest. He had been involved in a wreck where he hit a driver who was being pursued by police. He has not subsequently been charged.

The cop stepped way, way over the line, and the Salt Lake PD is bending over backwards to make it right. WITHIN 24 HOURS they got ALL of their officers in to training sessions to make clear that the way this was handled was wrong.

Just as a certain number of firemen are attracted to the job because they are pyromaniacs, a certain number of policemen are attracted to the job because they are bullies who enjoy imposing authority upon others. I have tremendous respect for police officers and firefighters, but if you don't recognize this as truth you are living in fantasyland.

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#23 Post by FWiedner » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:14 pm

gcs wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:50 pm
No reason to go off the rails, got an issue? call your superior, let them earn their pay grade.
The nurse did call her superior, but Judge Dredd decided that he am the law.

All police departments with fleet vehicles should have a car-wash division so that cops like this can be exiled there.

:lol:
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#24 Post by piller » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:02 pm

As another one who has to follow Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act regulations, in a pharmacy, doctor's office, dentist's office, or hospital, HIPAA trumps all. The officer needed a warrant. What would it take? A call to the desk sergeant, who calls the officer on duty in the office, who then calls a member of the district attorney's office. The judge is then called and a warrant is issued. Faxed in to the emergency room. What? 30 minutes?
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#25 Post by piller » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:03 pm

The paramedics could have done the blood draw at the scene without a big incident.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#26 Post by FWiedner » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:09 am

piller wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:03 pm
The paramedics could have done the blood draw at the scene without a big incident.
Would they have been required to get the man's permission (if he were conscious) to "search his property", or is a warrant not required at the scene of an accident, whether or not the subject is not at fault?

:?:
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#27 Post by piller » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:48 am

There are a bunch of different rules which apply while at the scene of the accident. If the victim has significant blood loss, then it is acceptable to do a blood draw for blood type to be determined. The victim's ID is found if possible and authorization to inject an IV can be obtained from the destination hospital if it is deemed necessary to do it in order to save the victims life. Once the victim is in the ambulance and being transported, then other rules apply. It is a difficult task when trying to keep up with all of the laws.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#28 Post by 44shooter » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:01 pm

Basically, samples may be obtained from a patient who cannot give consent for emergency medical purposes not for legal purposes. It's done everywhere everyday for traumas, strokes, overdoses etc. However, results are confidential on a need to know basis. LE has to get consent or a warrant to obtain samples or results from them.

If the nurse complied with the cop, she could have been justifiably terminated by the hospital. The hospital and the nurse could be subject to penalties by the U.S. Government. The hospital and nurse could be successfully sued by the patient.

She was right. He was wrong. And SLCPD knows it and will probably work something out with her.

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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#29 Post by 41 Redhawk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:58 pm

The Detective has now been fired from the police force and his Lt./supervisor demoted to police officer.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#30 Post by BlaineG » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:33 pm

41 Redhawk wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:58 pm
The Detective has now been fired from the police force and his Lt./supervisor demoted to police officer.
I thought it might have gone the other way. The LT seems to have been giving the orders?
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#31 Post by jeepnik » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:40 pm

As of today the news says the fired officer is appealing his termination. Apparently he thinks termination went too far. He apparently has a very strange idea of what going too far is.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#32 Post by 41 Redhawk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:26 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:33 pm
41 Redhawk wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:58 pm
The Detective has now been fired from the police force and his Lt./supervisor demoted to police officer.
I thought it might have gone the other way. The LT seems to have been giving the orders?
It probably had something to do with the way he handled her. Even if it would have been a legit arrest there was no call to treat her like that.
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#33 Post by jeepnik » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:45 am

In retrospect, the only one who should have had blood drawn for a drug check was the officer. His reaction, actually overreaction, seemed irrational and uncontrolled. This isn't the sort of person you want in authority, much less carrying a firearm.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferrably in the dark"
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it"

41 Redhawk
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Re: What's the deal with some cops...?

#34 Post by 41 Redhawk » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:41 pm

Here's hoping he loses his appeal!
The Lord Bless You

Terry

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