357 penetration

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Ford or Chevy.

Can o worms.

Any bullet 158 grains and up of good construction will work wonderfully.

I prefer 180+ cast LBT style bullets.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:55 pm

Ford or Chevy. Ford

Can o worms. No thanks, I just ate.

Any bullet 158 grains and up of good construction will work wonderfully. Sounds good.

I prefer 180+ cast LBT style bullets. Me too, I think?

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:38 pm

Ganjiro uses a .357 carbine, maybe he will put in some of his insight and experience.

canonsix · Post by **canonsix** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:59 pm

180 gr LFNGC thru both doors of either a Ford or Chevy, oh! were were talking about deer.

What Tycer said. Doug

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:03 pm

A .357 HollowPoint is pretty distructive...... A 158 - 180 hardcast would penetrate better and not tear up so much meat.....

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:26 pm

My old friend Bryant Grace once made an error in his alloy and cast his SWC's way too hard. They were a bit inconsistently sized as the hard alloy didn't fill out the drive bands very well, and accuracy was not outstanding, but those sucker sure did penetrate.

Bryant loaded some up over a heavy load of Unique and shot at his wood pile. Those bullets penetrated thick billets of seasoned oak firewood and were in good enough condition to reload and shoot again. At the high velocity Bryant was getting, (around 1300 or 1400 fps IIRC) I'd be willing to bet that those bullets would penetrate most bulletproof vests.

Look at it this way T. B., if you are hunting skinny Southern Whitetails, most of them won't weigh much more than a big man. If a 125 gr. JHP is a good man-stopper, it ought to stop a deer if you put it in the right spot. On the other hand, if your shot is at a less than perfect angle, the added penetration of a 158 grain or heavier SWC will be handy getting your bullet to the place it will do the most good.

If you've not read it yet, you ought to read Paco's article on heavy loaded .357 Magnum carbines here at the LeverGuns sight.

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:54 am

I couldn't tell you which is better, but a 158gr JSP at around 1800fps will drop a deer just fine.

KT-45 · Post by **KT-45** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:05 am

As is to be expected, Doc gave some first-rate advise.

At reasonable ranges/velocities the 158 grainers will do just fine. The hard-cast 180s will take down most deer on the North American continent.

If you're planning on hunting in the Rocky Mountains then check with the local wildlife authorities...here in Colorado .357s ain't legal for deer.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:06 am

I've used the AE 158gr JSP on whitetails in north-central Texas, those deer seem to run under 200 lbs.

I tend to hunt close-range inside 75 yards, and I haven't had one yet that didn't acheive a full penetration.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:41 am

I like a cast 180 with a wide flat nose, mostly because I'm cheap and I cast them myself. They do a good job knocking out a whitetail too.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:27 am

Choice of bullet depends on velocity as well as the desired terminal performance. It seems from actual users of these guns on deer that strongly constructed HPs like the Speer Gold Dot 158 gr. do well. Also doing well is the Hornady 158 gr. XTP-FP (flat point, NOT the hollow point). The 158 gr. bullets can be driven at 2000 fps and that is just too fast for many of the light HPs. There is a 140 gr. HP (I forget which one) that some have found to work fairly well particularly on lighter deer. Many prefer the 180 gr. Remington SJHP or Hornady XTP over L'ilGun at about 1700-1800 fps. All of these bullets seem to give good performance on average sized deer. I'm loading the 180 gr. Remington SJHP over 15 gr. L'ilGun.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:31 am

I have personally seen deer dropped with the .357. I can't bring myself to think of the .357 as "minor" deer round. It is only in the minds of those who believe they have to have the latest and greatest short fat wide skinny long loud expensive magnum.

A good constructed jacketed hollowpoint will do the job. The Cor-Bon 140's worked right well. Shooting through a deer's lungs - if you don't hit bone - is like shooting through 2 loaves of bread. You don't need a heavy bullet to get it done.

The heavier bullets are help if the angles are bad. But most folks should not take those risky shots. If you have hunted enough to know what's involved then you understand what I mean.

For hunting the woods in the East I prefer a jacketed bullet over a cast one. Blasphemy .. I know .. especially from an old cast bullet freak like myself. But hunting the West is different. Out there the game can run 100 yards or so and you can still see it. In the East, often if the game runs 100 yards it's on someone elses property with all the attendant problems that brings.

But back to your question ... the standard 158 gr. JPH or JSP will shoot clean through a deer, even if you hit the ribs.

ke4sky · Post by **ke4sky** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:45 am

Bullet construction needs to be more sturdy for .357 rifle use on deer which weigh over 150 pounds. On small deer it doesn't matter much what you use, but the lighter JHP bullets tear up more meat, and bullets lighter than 140 grains will fragment and penetrate poorly when driven over 1700 fps and should be limited to home defense and varmints.

The Speer No. 13 handbook recommends the 158-gr. JSP or 170-gr. Gold Dot JSP for deer hunting in .357 rifles to ensure adequate penetration. In my experience, within 100 yards the Remington, Winchester and Speer 158 JSPs loaded with 14.8 grs. of #2400 and Federal 200 primers work about as well as a .30-30 with 150-gr. factory loads, but penetrate deeper better and ruin less meat. Velocity is about 1650 f.p.s. in a short- barreled carbine 1800 in a 24-inch rifle.

Expansion of typical 158 JSPs from a .357 rifle averages .50 to .55 cal. in water jugs and penetration 24-30 inches of water, compared to about 20" for 150-gr. SP .30-30s. Winchester, Remington, Speer and Hornady XTP hollowpoints tested in water jugs at the same velocity expand over 55 cal. and penetration is 16-20" of water. Water penetration averages about 1.5 times gelatin penetration, so 20 inches of water equates to about 13 inches of gelatin, which I feel is a minimum acceptable level for deer hunting.

Higher velocity and lighter bullet construction make bullets expand more quickly, reducing penetration. So you need to balance velocity with bullet construction and your need for penetration. I don't recommend using less than a 6-inch .357 revolver for deer, because you cannot get enough velocity for bullets to perform normally unless you use the lighter bullets, which lack penetration.

The 158 JHPs work best in revolvers with barrels of 6 inches or longer, and are ideal in a 10-14-inch Contender. They work best for small deer under 150 pounds on broadside shots, but lack penetration on raking shots or if large bones are hit.

That being said, what I use in my .357 rifle for deer is an NEI #161A 190-gr. flatnosed cast bullet. This is a traditional blackpowder design which resembles bullets used in the .35-50 Stevens and Maynard at similar velocities. It's nose and meplat profile resembles the LBT LFN. Cast of 1:20 tin/lead, using a compressed nominal "caseful" (about 18 grs. setttled in with a drop tube in Winchester cases, just as you would load black powder!) of RL-7 or 4198 with Federal 200 primers at 1.59" overall cartridge length velocity from a 24-inch barrel is 1450 fps. That's the maximum a plainbased bullet will stand without leading. In my Marlin Cowboy II this load groups 3 inches at 100 yards. The soft bullet expands like a blackpowder express round and penetration is through and through on deer from any angle. You can eat right up to the bullet hole.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:38 am

Shall I post the gory details?

Yep.

Of 4 deer shot with a .357 with 180gr hardcast bullets I've only had one fail to fully penetrate... that's because it hit the shoulder ball & socket square on and detonated it before turning and ending up in the windpipe/stomach.

Here is a pic of what the bullet looks like new & fired into bags of fertilizer (Thanks Steveb):

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:11 pm

Thanks for reposting those OI.

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:52 pm

i've always used the 180gr. hardcast on deer. in target practice i've shot thru various mediums and completely penetrated them. seeing these results, i wouldn't hesitate to take on a charging, mad ,brown bear with my puny 4' .357 mag handgun. doubt that i'll get the opportinity, but i have faith in this combo.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:50 pm

tman wrote:i've always used the 180gr. hardcast on deer. in target practice i've shot thru various mediums and completely penetrated them. seeing these results, i wouldn't hesitate to take on a charging, mad ,brown bear with my puny 4' .357 mag handgun. doubt that i'll get the opportinity, but i have faith in this combo.

I shoot 185g btb. I've done some penetration testing. It won't hold a candle to the load I actually carry to ward off charging brown bears. After seeing those results I don't care to choose the .357 to do that job. It may do it, but I count momentum as a substantial ally in shaky situations, and the 185g .357s don't actually have that much of it.

OTOH I could easily make venison with that load from my snubbie. I have shot a couple of deer with a 149g keith style bullet and didn't think it was really great from a 4" smith. Adding thirty grains certainly doesn't make it a great candidate for stopping charging bears... but that's just me talking

Grizz

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:18 pm

buffalo bore loads 180 gr. hardcast and promotes them as bear stoppers. corbon does the same with their 200 gr. hardcast. at close range they will probablly penetrate more than enough to do the necessery damage. it wont lift the beer 30 feet in the air and drop him on his head. neither will a .458wcf. no personal experience, just my thoughts

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:22 pm

The .357Mag is a proven stopper of homo sapiens out of handguns; therefore, I would postuulate that with properly constructed bullets for the increased velocities from your carbine the .357 Magnum is NOT a minimal cartridge for deer; (if kept within ranges appropriate to its ballistic parameters).

Oh look! OI's real world experience bearrs this out! Reminds me of fpolks continually tellin' me my .30-30 is a minimal deer cartridge!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:58 pm

buffalo bore loads 180 gr. hardcast and promotes them as bear stoppers.

He does not promote these as bear stoppers. He claims they can penetrate a bear skull. That's NOT THE SAME THING.

I happen to know that he doesn't hunt bears with a 45/70 because he wants more stopping power. He told me this on the telephone when we were in Alaska and he was setting out on a bear hunt...

He would not promote a .357 as a bear stopper; and you jumped to the wrong conclusion. I already said that it's possible to kill a bear with a CNS shot with that round. I also said there are MUCH better choices. The .44 mag is one of them, and in fact he makes the exact claim for that round:

Now there exists a serious full power 44 mag. load that will penetrate big bones (including a bears skull)

utilizes a 124gr. FMJ flat nose bullet at 1,425 fps. This bullet will smash through typical stick frame walls, car doors and a bears skull or shoulder bones.

This is not promoting the round as a stopper of a charging, mad, brown bear...

seeing these results, i wouldn't hesitate to take on a charging, mad ,brown bear with my puny 4' .357 mag handgun.

It's not a very experienced point of view is all I'm saying..,

Grizz

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:03 pm

I'm in the midst of a test project regarding .357 mag penetration from a carbine. I'm firing into bullet test tubes, which are cylinders of soft wax at a range of 20 yards. I first obtained data on a .30-30 150 grain Federal factory round to use as a point of reference.

The highlight so far has been a Remington 180 grain SJHP pushed by 15 grains of lil'gun.

Here's the 30-30 cavity

MV=2460 f/s Penetration depth=12" Cavity Volume=100ml

Here's the .357 180gn SJHP cavity

MV=1700 f/s Penetration depth= 11" cavity volume=110ml

The .357 left a nastier looking cavity and the hollow part of the bullet broke into four relatively equal sized chards that I imagine would tear up a lot of tissue in a live animal. I suspect that the 30-30 would still have the edge at longer ranges, but at 50 yards (a long shot here in the thick woods of the northeast) I doubt a deer would know the difference.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:15 am

i have no experince on bears with it, probably got a little overenthusiastic aftre seeing how the 180's penetrate.

.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:39 am

I have shot numerous wild goats, deer, and a Black Buck doe using my 357 magnum "Shorty" and the majority were killed with 158 Grain JHPs the aluminum case CCI Blazer to be specific. For my antelope I used Winchester 158 JSPs. Out of all game popped I have only recovered one bullet the rest being pass-throughs. The bullet pictured below I recovered from a 100 pound Billy which was a quartering away shot at 125 yards entering right rear ham, penetrating the heart and lodging in left shoulder blade, dropped instantly. Very little bloodshot meat, nice clean quarters. I do have some 180 grain loads the Winchester Supreme Partition Golds which I will save for pigs. For deer I feel 158 of proper construction works just fine from my experience though nothing wrong with 180s either.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:39 am

tman wrote:i have no experince on bears with it, probably got a little overenthusiastic aftre seeing how the 180's penetrate. .

tman, it is a dandy round, and .357 has taken lots of large game, both from a handgun and rifle. but I promise you that if you go fishing in Lisianski River about this time of year and a seven hundred pound animal is a hundred yards upstream from you, ripping the bellies out of the fish he's pouncing on, you will look at the hole in your barrel and wish it was larger..... It's not that the 185g hardcast isn't a capable load, it's just not safe to extrapolate its performance on smaller animals to monster animals. In fact, if I go into the woods without my rifle, I carry my .44 mag as primary and my 4" smith as backup to it with that hard cast 185g bullet as my last ditch effort to avoid the lunch menu...

Jason_W, that's a great looking test, and it looks like the .357 from your carbine is similar to the 30-30 for sure. Marshall Stanton told me he has killed hundreds of deer with the 185g hardcast from his rifle doing ag depridation work and never lost a deer and almost never needed a second shot. It's a very capable load. I hope you will try the hard cast load in your pen-test setup and share those photos. I would gladly send some bullets to you if you're not loading them. Is that allowed these days? PM me if you're interested.. My load averages 1725 fps from my 16" Winchester barrel.

Ji, I'm surprised a little at the hp performance... it's better than I would have thought. I've never used hp on game, glad to hear your experience. I've only heard about bullets self-destructing and wounding animals. I need to make more meat!

Regards,

Grizz

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:52 am

The deer I killed with a garden variety .357 Soft nose lead Remington 158 gr(from wal mart no less) seemed pretty dead when I walked up to him.

Your milage may vary. I'd stay away from hollowpoints... they splatter and you may cull a lot of bloodshot meat.

There are a lot of folks who swear by hardcast lead bullets

Hill

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:54 pm

Grizz wrote: Ji, I'm surprised a little at the hp performance... it's better than I would have thought. I've never used hp on game, glad to hear your experience. I've only heard about bullets self-destructing and wounding animals. I need to make more meat!

Regards,

Grizz

I think 2 factors effect my experience, first I use 158 grain HPs , I think the 125 grain HPs would have more the effects you describe and that's why I don't hunt with them. Second, these goats live in open country and I'd be lucky to get within 50 yards with most shots averaging closer to 100, and I won't take a shot over 150 yards (out of my open sight comfort zone). I think this gives the HPs time to slow down a bit thus getting better controlled expansion.

The Black Buck Antelope I shot in Texas took 3 rounds of 158 JSPs to drop range beginning at 44 yards for first shot out to about 85 yards for last all 3 rounds full penetration with exit wounds no bigger than the entry which surprised me coming from a 16" Trapper length barrel. I know these little antelopes are tenacious critters but seems like I wasn't getting real good expansion with the JSPs in the small body of the antelope even at the relatively close range.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:23 pm

Grizz wrote:
tman wrote: Jason_W, that's a great looking test, and it looks like the .357 from your carbine is similar to the 30-30 for sure. Marshall Stanton told me he has killed hundreds of deer with the 185g hardcast from his rifle doing ag depridation work and never lost a deer and almost never needed a second shot. It's a very capable load. I hope you will try the hard cast load in your pen-test setup and share those photos. I would gladly send some bullets to you if you're not loading them. Is that allowed these days? PM me if you're interested.. My load averages 1725 fps from my 16" Winchester barrel.

I will be testing hard cast loads after I work through my current jacketed loads, but I'll vary my method a bit. I imagine that the hard cast bullets will easily clear through two feet of wax and keep going, so I'll place a 10" cylinder in front of a series of pine boards. The wax will provide a record of cavitation and the wood will actually stop the bullet.

The biggest problem with the wax test medium is the time it takes to recast.

Birdman · Post by **Birdman** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:23 pm

It sounds like most of us are pretty happy with that little ol 357. When used within reason it is quite a performer, on man and animals. There are times when a "bigger hole" is nice to have along though.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:20 pm

Dramatic from inches one to three and one half after that the same. SO what is there - the outside of one lung. Think of what you are destroying. Do a 45-70 405.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:00 am

Old Savage wrote:Dramatic from inches one to three and one half after that the same. SO what is there - the outside of one lung. Think of what you are destroying. Do a 45-70 405.

+1

Jason - your test shows why solids are a much better "game-getter" out of a rifle than an HP. Compare a 158gr solid - which will easily do 2000fps from a rifle - vs the 150gr .30-30. Should look prt-near the same.

Then do an 1800fps 180gr like mine or the Buffalo Bore (haven't chrony'd Mike's 180 from my Rossi yet).

THAT is where the .357 becomes a real deer gun IMO.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:51 am

T B Good, deer are easy to kill.

If I were you I'd go down to Wal-Mart and buy a box of factory 357 Magnums with 158 grain bullets and go hunting. If Wal-Mart gives you a choice between hollow points or soft points, buy the soft points. If not, buy whatever they have in 158 grain. Drive down to the dump and sight your gun in with the ammo you bought and then head into the bush with full confidence that if you place the shot well, inside of 100 yards, you'll be frying backstrap that night.

Now, if the game were black bear or pigs or some thing tougher than deer, than you might actually have to think about what bullet and load you'd use - but for deer, naw, buy ammo - find deer - shoot - eat. No need to out think yourself on this one.

DerekR · Post by **DerekR** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:28 pm

I like to reload with the Speer 170 grain Gold Dot flat point for deer in my .357 carbine.

klrhunter650 · Post by **klrhunter650** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:10 pm

Are you guys telling me that a .357 will kill a deer?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:29 pm

klrhunter650 wrote:Are you guys telling me that a .357 will kill a deer?

Deader than a post. 4 of them to date. Not one moved more than simple inertia would allow before they piled up.

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:55 pm

Old Ironsights,
Who's boolit is that in your pics??
I have been using BTB 185FNGC but started casting this past year and am loading a 180FNGC Saeco. RanchDog Molds is supose to be coming out with a 190gr FNGC tumble lube soon which I hope to put thru it's paces. I also reciently aquired a couple handfulls of a 215keith that was originaly intended for the .357max that I want to test.

I have never had an issue with pigs or deer shooting the BTB 180.

As far as the whole bear argument goes, there is not much that will drop a charging angry bear before it does you harm, adrinaline has alot to do with that. On the other hand I would have no issues shooting a blackie(local to my AO) that is browsing along with my .357 lever.

When I go stream fishing for trout I tote a SP101 with the same BTB 185 FNGC that I shoot out my lever

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:44 am

The bullet in the pics is the Cast Boolets Group Buy C358-180RF GC from a custom Lee 6 cavity mould.

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:20 am

Thought it looked familiar, I found the Cast Boolits forum just after that buy closed. Which is why I bought the Saeco instead.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:21 pm

Have used Buff Bores 180 HCGC , use it in a GP100 3" for back up when I ride and hunt. Have used it to kill stockkilling cats & bears it works. Last cat we shot a friend put 5 44 mag 240 gr corelokts into the shoulder of the cat he got down and tore up the dogs friend put the 6 th into his head ruinened the skull 150+lb tom after skinning we found the first 5 blew up on the shoulder, jacketed sp dont work. There's a Alaskan outfitter & guide for the big bears gave his daughter a 357 for bear problems his name is Phil Shoemaker. I think hes in the top 10 people who would know. I beleive that you should use the gun that you can shoot well with if that means a 22lr that the one cause if you cant hit em where you want with a cannon it wont work. danny

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:06 pm

Nice test Jason. Thanks for posting the pics. Whatever media that is, it really seems to accurately represent a real life wound channel.

I would love to see the same test at 100 yards with factory 30-30 loads (150 and 170) and 35 Remington 200gr CorLokts. It might help end an everlasting debate!

Thanks again,
bogie

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:14 pm

[quote="Andrew"]Ford or Chevy. Ford

F.O.R.D. = Fix or repair daily.

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:35 am

Forget about light-heavy bullets and soft expanding or hard bullets.
Think about the amount of tissue destruction and the shape of the
wound channel.
Choose between short wide cone shape or long narrow tunnel or something in between.

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:31 am

For Central PA deer a 158 gr Hornaday has worked great but ... When I went after a hog I used what Grizz mentioned on page one ... the 185 gr Beartooth ... mine had the wide flat nose. Feeding in about 95% good but penetration is great.

I shot the hog between the eyes at about 35 yards and when we gutted it we followed the bullet path back into the intestines before we quit. It penetrated over three feet after going through the skull. The hog was about 300 to 325 lbs.

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:04 pm

This heavy cow elk was toppled with my 357MAG revolver. It soaked up two 158 grain hollow tip bullets at about 50 feet or so but my bullets did not bounce off.

357MAG is no long range cartridge. Keep your shots limited to typical archery distances and you'll do just fine.

TR

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:12 am

Just an idea to consider, it seems that the lightweight bullets are hollowpoint
( which is the reason they are light ) dont work well because of excess
expansion at hi speeds.
The negative of heavy harder bullets that penetrate better is the degraded
trajectory due to lower velocity.

Why not use the lighter FMJ bullets as they will keep the high velocity
and likely not explode on impact like the hollowpoints and thus
give desirable penetration ? The higher velocities would likely create
a slightly larger wound channel compared to slower hard cast bullets
but maybe not due to the rounded tips vs flat.

I'm pretty sure I have seen some 125 and 140 grain FMJ target shoot bullets
from someone.

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:24 pm

Hollow tip bullets have worked great taking mulies and the above photo of heavy elk. I'm not switching to anything else.

TR

donw · Post by **donw** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:08 pm

it appears to be the consensus that it's adequate...the physical evidence also seems to support it as being adequate, too.

there will always be the naysayers, though.

i once had a so-called gun "expert" tell me that a 7mm mauser is not adequate for "even a SMALL black bear"...

my point? it's proven to be effective...no matter what some may say...

preventec47 · Post by **preventec47** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:42 am

I think the issue here is the definition of "adequate". When you shoot
any animal in the ribs all the stuff right behind it is just like shooting
through loaves of bread. ( lungs ) I am positive any "man stopper"pistol
bullet that is designed to mushroom at 800 fps would still work when
fired from a rifle at 1800 fps if the animal were shot through the ribs
into the lungs. ( much of the lung material being air) Obviously many
here can attest to this "adequacy"
in being effective on this kind of bullet placement.

However the naysayers positions are that when same animal is shot
with a pistol speed man stopper bullet in the shoulder at rifle velocities
that those bullets disintegrate without fully penetrating the shoulder
and reaching vital areas.

I have actually seen the ballistics tests of frangible bullets which are
compressed zinc/tungsten powder and I tell you even they would
work on a ribs placement shot. They create a huge teardrop cavity
about 8 inchs deep in the ballistics gel which I think is tougher
than spongy lung material.

So what it boils down to for those that want to cover themselves when
making a shoulder hit is to have a bullet that will hold together
enough to penetrate through the shoulder and into the vital areas
forcefully. This will just about always result in a clean pass through
when the animal is shot in the ribs with a smaller diameter wound
channel.

About the most extreme I can think of is when the guys shoot
44 special man stopper bullets at marlin 444 velocities. I would expect
you to only be able to find only small pieces of the bullet on any kind of hit.