30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

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Old Savage
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30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#1 Post by Old Savage » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:19 pm

I have recently chronographed Federal PowerShok 150s in three Winchester 30-30s:

2350 fps in the 20" barrel
2407 fps in the 24" barrel
2467 fps in the 26" barrel

And, Winchester PP 150's:

2244 fps in the 20" barrel
2349 fps in the 24" barrel
2430 fps in the 26" barrel

170 grain bullets in 20":

Winchester Powerpoints 2041 fps
Winchester Silvertips 2100 fps
Federal Power Shok 2105 fps

Those are averages.

Some folks a while back were interested in the comparisons of 30-30 velocities in the various barrel lengths.
Last edited by Old Savage on Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:03 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#2 Post by J Miller » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:24 pm

Fred,

You only need one more barrel length, the 16", to make that complete.

Have you found that the Federal ammo shoots faster, slower, or the same as say Winchesters 150gr Power Point ammo?

Joe
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#3 Post by Old Savage » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:23 pm

Joe - Win 150 PPs were about 30 fps slower in the 26" and 170 PPs were about 60 fps slower in the 20" than the same weight Federals. I am going to have to get some Win 150s and test those in the 20". It so favors 170s that I haven't looked at the 150s much. And with the small difference in the 26" I can't be sure that a different test might not yeild different resutls. Win 170 Silvertips equalled the Feds velocity wise. No great practical difference but the Feds have been more accurate and faster in the 170s in my 20".

I'll get some 150 Win and try that.

I recently tried to get a 30-30 Trapper but it got away. I have seen only one out here. I would like to test a 16".
Last edited by Old Savage on Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#4 Post by Rod WMG » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:25 pm

This could be a long and very interesting thread if folks would do it with their favorite loads.

Thanks for posting it.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#5 Post by J Miller » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:50 pm

Fred,

If you'll pay for the gas I'll bring my Trapper out for you to test ..... :twisted:


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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#6 Post by Old Savage » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:04 pm

Joe, a generous offer on your part; I am touched - I am going to buy a lottery ticket and if I win the big one your fly first class. But in the meantime - I'll pay the shipping for you to send it to The Gun Shop in Lancaster, Ca. where I have tested rifles for some years for the gunsmiths. :D I'll check the velocity and the accuracy and we'll send it back to you. All legal.

Or, hitch a ride with Griff and we can all have some fun!
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#7 Post by J Miller » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:19 am

Old Savage wrote:Joe, a generous offer on your part; I am touched - I am going to buy a lottery ticket and if I win the big one your fly first class. But in the meantime - I'll pay the shipping for you to send it to The Gun Shop in Lancaster, Ca. where I have tested rifles for some years for the gunsmiths. :D I'll check the velocity and the accuracy and we'll send it back to you. All legal.

Or, hitch a ride with Griff and we can all have some fun!
Hey, now I hadn't thought of that.

YO .... Grifffffffff


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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#8 Post by Poohgyrr » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:01 am

Thanks for the info.....

I still need a 26" 30WCF................
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#9 Post by dogtagger » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:50 am

Field Test Comparison
Marlin 336 SC 30-30 20" barrel
Marlin 30TK 30-30 18.5" barrel

First load:
XX grs. IMR 4064, CCI-200 primer, Remington 170 RN in Remington cases.
336 velocity 2125 FPS
30TK velocity 2230 FPS

Second load:
XX grs. BL-C(2), CCI 200 primer, Remington 170 RN and WW cases.
336 velocity 2144 FPS
30TK velocity 2197 FPS

Third load:
Hornady LeverEvolution
336 velocity 2233 FPS
30TK velocity 2260 FPS

Interesting data for sure. Max loads in the 336 seem hot in the 30TK with some sticky cases particularly with 4064. I assume the 30TK has a tighter chamber. Load 2 and 3 worked fine in both rifles. Moral of the story: shorter barrel does not always shoot 'slower'.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#10 Post by Old Savage » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:35 am

True there tagger and welcome! Anyone using a chronograph will soon find that out.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#11 Post by dogtagger » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:57 pm

Thanks for the welcome Old Savage. Not sure what happened but looks like my prior posts got deleted... Not that I had a lot, but more than two anyway... :roll:
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length Updated 4 Joe

#12 Post by Old Savage » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:32 pm

Joe, I added the 150 Winchester Powerpoints to the initial post.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length Updated 4 Joe

#13 Post by J Miller » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:47 pm

Old Savage wrote:Joe, I added the 150 Winchester Powerpoints to the initial post.
Fred,
Thanks a bunch. I'll copy this info for future reference. I've always wondered how that ammo performed in real rifles.

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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#14 Post by gundownunder » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:03 pm

Sounds like the 24" is the way to go. faster loads and a longer sight radius too. 26" is starting to get a bit too long for my likin'. I might just have to work some overtime and look for a new rifle.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#15 Post by J Miller » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:35 pm

Federal PowerShok 150s:

2350 fps in the 20" barrel
2407 fps in the 24" barrel
2467 fps in the 26" barrel

And, Winchester PP 150's:

2244 fps in the 20" barrel
2349 fps in the 24" barrel
2430 fps in the 26" barrel

What fascinates me is the Federal ammo is doing the same velocity from a 20" barrel that the Win ammo is doing from a 24" barrel.
I'm going to have to try some of that. It's been many many summers since I fired any Federal 30-30 ammo.


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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#16 Post by Old Savage » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:59 pm

From my experience with a number of different calibers Federal is almost always the fastest with Remington next and Winchester in last. Silvertips have usually been faster than Powerpoints.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#17 Post by Premo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:30 am

OS,

Thanks for the 30-30 data, it is well appreciated. Just have a couple of questions,

1. How large was the data set for each variable?
2. What was the standard deviation for each variable?

I am just looking for more info to help me evaluate the data you presented. Thanks.

FP

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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#18 Post by Old Savage » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:04 am

Premo. This is fraught with statistical potholes - 3 to 10 shots - sometimes five shots - I'll have to look. The one that would create the most question is the 10 shot 24" Win 150 PP. 2348, 2391, 2341, 2328 then a variance of 25 in the next 6 shots and only 5 on the last three. In the 20" there was a variance of only 14 in the first three shots. 150s do not shoot well in the 20" so I stopped there with that. These two tests were with the same box of ammo.

I would see what shot the best in mine and then repeatedly test that.

More later - off to work.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#19 Post by Old Savage » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:59 pm

The best load for my 20 " is the Federal 170 Power Shok 2117, 2098, 2100 fps on the last group I shot which had a .7" group all in the x ring at 100 Yds.

On the same day in the same rifle Winchester PP 170s chronographed 2071, 2028, 2033, 2031, 2045 fps.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#20 Post by Premo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:01 pm

Fred,

Thanks for the additional data. Force of habit for me to ask about data sets, just like to know what the data means. (Some habits you just cannot shake) Dont worry about the sample sizes, LIFE is "fraught with statistical potholes" so... no different here. I am just happy to have the data you provided to add to my database. Thanks again for sharing with all.

FP

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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#21 Post by 6pt-sika » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:26 pm

J Miller wrote:
You only need one more barrel length, the 16", to make that complete.
Now if my chrony wasn't on the blink I could add to this with Marlin's in barrel lengths 16.25" , 20" ,22", 24" and 26" . But of course some are micro and some are ballard so that would open up another can of worms I suppose :wink:
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#22 Post by Old Savage » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:33 pm

Premo, over a period of about 12 years I chronographed about 8,000 rds of rifle ammunition. That covered about 20 - 25 rifles and there were many data points for each. I found that I could find out generally what I wanted to know with a few rounds and do more with the ones I was interested in. I also found that the lowest spread or deviation didn't necessarily dictate the most accurate. But without trying various loads you don't know what ball park they are in.

What I have is often recorded on targets with the averages in the records. If there is something specific that interests you I can look further but I must confess to long ago giving up statistical analysis. I look the data over and see if it is what I want. For instance, though I have had that 20" rifle for 18 years with 640 rounds through it I never chronographed the Win 150 PP because by the time I got a chronograph I already knew it didn't shoot well. Win 170 PPs which do shoot well chronographed within a few fps of each other from boxes made at least 8 years apart.

After Joe asked I wondered what the Win 150s would chronograph. Interesting I thought to know.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#23 Post by Premo » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:03 pm

Fred,

I appreciate your experience with lever guns. I too have chronographed different rounds and rifles over the last 10 years, but am new to the lever gun world. I just bought my first lever in January of this year and am now up to 7. So far, only two with the same caliber. Just looking to expand my world and some "real world" data is always appreciated.

My experience is mostly with bolt action’s. I have looked at the same gun / ammo over a ten year period for some combinations. Some, with very large data sets with different ambient temperatures, and elevations.

The data set’s you provided are very valuable as a baseline and a good starting point for me. I do believe that all rifle / ammo/ barrel length may look different today than it did yesterday and it will look tomorrow. All data is just a guideline for field / range performance. Great tool to point you in the direction which you want to go.

As with all data, the statistical analysis of the data is only as good as the number cruncher. Benjamin Disraeli said that, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, darned lies, and statistics.”

FP

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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#24 Post by Old Savage » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:53 pm

One of the things I use the data for is to find a reloading manual that matches a certain rifle. Best example is a Model 7, 7-08 I have that almost perfectly matches the data in the Hodgdon #26. I have 947 rds through that rifle and all the variations I have tried are quite close to the data in the manual.

That way if I want use another powder I have a pretty good idea what I will get - then I make notes in that reloading manual about that rifle. Easy to remember where I was with what rifle by the notes.
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#25 Post by Tycer » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:55 am

A start from a google search " winchester 30-30 velocity 170 grain 16" barrel" and "remington 30-30 velocity 170 grain 16" barrel" You can search further on the Rem one, I stopped after a couple of pages
William Iorg from b2b http://forum.exbabylon.net/showthread.htm?t=16754 wrote:With the 170 grain Sierra bullet ahead of 30.0 grains of IMR 3031 we got 1902 fps from the Trapper and 2065fps from the 20" Canadian Centennial barrel. 163fps or about 40fps per inch. I find 3031 to be just on the fast side for the .30-30 even though it was the standard powder for the cartridge for many years.
This thread: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 59&start=0

Section1_Operations from http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?17250-Ballistics-Involving-the-AK/page5 wrote:.30-30 Winchester 150 gr JSP Silvertip (#X30302)
velocity: 2211 fps
penetration: 18.9"
expansion: 0.57"
recovered weight: 125.8 gr

.30-30 Winchester 170 gr Power Point (#X30303)
velocity: 2036 fps
penetration: 20.5"+
expansion: 0.62"
recovered weight: 158.0 gr

* Note the 30-30 loads mentioned above were fired from a 16" barrel Marlin carbine, not the 20" rifle.
ENGLANDER FROM b2b http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=98181 wrote:Hello from Scotland~

Yesterday i put the first factory ammo though my Marlin L.T.S 16" .30-30 .............. up to now ive only shot home loads both jacket and recently cast.

I got hold of some Factory Remington 170 gr Remington core-lokt soft point in a green and yellow box.

Results:

1993 fps
1996 fps
2019 fps
1902 fps
1997 fps

Anyone else clocked the speed of factory ammo in their 16" .30-30 be it Winchester Marlin or other ????
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations with barrel length.

#26 Post by AJMD429 » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:09 am

J Miller wrote:You only need one more barrel length, the 16", to make that complete.
I'm sure someone here has a 14" Contender, which would 'bracket' the data even more...
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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#27 Post by J Miller » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:18 am

Thanks for reviving this thread. This time I bookmarked it for reference.

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Re: 30-30 velocity variations w/ bbl length updated for J Miller

#28 Post by Griff » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:05 pm

Lots of neat dara here! Don't know how I missed it the 1st time around. :?: :lol:
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