WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

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Tycer
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WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Tycer »

http://www.alliantpowder.com/safety/safetynotice.htm

Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).

Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).

Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.
Kind regards,
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by stretch »

I was just going to buy a pound based on Paco's recommendation. "The
champagne of powders..." for the 41 Mag was how he put it, I think.
Lotsa published loads for that combo, too.

I just sized a coupla hundred cases last night, and was going to load
so plinking loads and then play with some hi-powered hunting stuff.

Why the change, I wonder? Did they change the powder formulation?
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Gary
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Gary »

Thanks for sharing this! I was planning to do some reloading using Blue Dot for my high power loads in .357 this weekend. Bought a pound of powder and a bunch of standard primers. Now I wish I went with magnum primers and ball powder. Crikey!

Well, I should be able to get by with 38 Special load levels in .357 cases.

Gary
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Thanks for the head's up Tycer!!! :shock:
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by homefront »

Well, I should be able to get by with 38 Special load levels in .357 cases.
I'd be very cautious about that.
I thinks it's light loads and light bullets that can cause a pressure spike with Blue Dot. It's always been known to perform better loaded on the strong side, with a heavy boolit to build up steam.
I don't understand the .41 mag thing at all.
Some further explanation is in order from Alliant.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Blaine »

I LOVE BlueDot. H110 performance (almost) with WAY less powder.....I don't have a .41 and I load 160 and 180 grain .357 and all weights in .44, so I guess I'm ok. Sounds like a Lawyer wrote that one...... :|
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Chuck 100 yd
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Yes, Thanks for the heads up Tycer. I dont shoot Blue Dot but dont want any of my friends hurt either. :o
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by El Chivo »

I have been using it for .357, in light loads going about 900-1000 fps (7.5 gr with a 158 cast). It has been very accurate.

One time I got a slight hesitation between the primer ignition and the powder ignition, maybe 1/8 second or so.

I decided to stop using it because I don't like the way the flakes spoon out when weighing it.

Someone else told me ignition is iffy in cold weather.

I have a few left, going to use them up.

I'm wondering why the 125 grain bullet and not the heavier ones.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by El Chivo »

Ok, I have a guess about this.

I was just checking in my .357 loadbook, and I see that the Alliant load data is higher than anyone else's (except Sierra). They list 14.5 gr of Blue Dot with a 125. They also list a whopping 16.0 grains with a 110.

That is a LOT of Blue Dot. Lyman lists a 121 grain bullet, max charge is 13.0 gr, giving pressure of 41,400 CUP. When working with Blue Dot, I was impressed at how a little bit goes a long way.

Alliant says their load has pressure of 34,000 PSI. I don't know how to convert CUP to PSI, but it looks to me like Alliant underestimated the pressure on these loads.

Perhaps, if the pressure is much over 40,000 CUP, some revolvers are getting damaged. They might think it's wiser to warn not to load for these bullets since they can't recall loading manuals that are already printed.

I went to check their loading data and got this message:

The Recipes Guide is undergoing some maintenance.
We apologize for the inconvenience. Please check back in a week.


So I would bet next week we'll see new loads for Blue Dot and light bullets maxing out at 12.5 or 13 grains.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Gary »

homefront wrote:
Well, I should be able to get by with 38 Special load levels in .357 cases.
I'd be very cautious about that.
I thinks it's light loads and light bullets that can cause a pressure spike with Blue Dot. It's always been known to perform better loaded on the strong side, with a heavy boolit to build up steam.
I don't understand the .41 mag thing at all.
Some further explanation is in order from Alliant.
My Speer book shows a max 8.5 grains of Blue Dot in a 38 Special case with a 125 grain JHP. Are you saying that if I loaded that into a 357 magnum case there would be a problem?

Thanks!

Gary
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by homefront »

This is semi-educated guesswork on my part, so please read it as such.
I know that Blue Dot is not "slow" powder pre se, but is is slower than some, and small amounts of slower powders in larger cases have been known to not burn cleanly, ie. detonate. Using a .357 case instead of a smaller .38 case, with a light load of a slower powder and/or a light bullet may not burn as well as Red Dot, Unique, Bullseye, AA #2, 231, etc. To my way of thinking, a light load of an even slower powder, like 4227, 296, 4795, etc., should be even worse.
For lighter loads, especially in larger cases, it's probably best to stick to powders faster than Blue Dot.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by El Chivo »

There's a link from the Oregon Trail website where a guy did extensive testing for loading down certain powders. He concluded Blue Dot was among the best for loading down. Unique was a favorite also. Here's a comment:

Conjecture 3) the disc shape is not accidental. For the powder charge to ignite uniformly and consistently each grain must be bathed in hot gases and must not be sheltered from such by other grains. The thin disc shape acts as a sail and causes upon primer firing the charge to resemble a colloidally suspended solution: hot gas and powder particulates.

Anyway, it ignites easily.

Here's the link:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

I really think Alliant's problem is bad loading data, not a bad powder. They're not saying anything about not loading down the powder. That would apply to all bullet weights and other calibers which were not mentioned. They would also say never use it in rifle cartridges. Just one .357 load and the .41 mag loads. And notice they are fixing their loading data.

I'm curious about how hot those .41 mag loads were, anybody have the .41 mag Alliant data?

And, as far as safe to load down, this guy says anything slower than 2400 is the dividing line (RQ of 200). Blue Dot is well within that (250).
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by CBinNH »

Sobenk,
My Alliant Reloaders Guide from 1996 lists these loads for the 41 Magnum using Rem 2.5 primer from a 5.8 barrel:
200 HP - 14 gr Blue Dot - 1470 fps - 36,000 psi
210 JSP - 13.5 gr Blue Dot - 1425 fps - 33,800 psi
220JHP - 12.5 gr Blue Dot - 1365 fps - 35,800 psi
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by homefront »

I really think Alliant's problem is bad loading data, not a bad powder. They're not saying anything about not loading down the powder. That would apply to all bullet weights and other calibers which were not mentioned. They would also say never use it in rifle cartridges. Just one .357 load and the .41 mag loads. And notice they are fixing their loading data.
What you say makes sense.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Kansas Ed »

I've posted this before, but when I first started reloading I began looking for a load in the 44 Mag case which was as mild or milder than the 44 Special. I was under the recommended starting loads using either a 225 gr or 240 grain bullet (cant remember which) and was using Blue Dot. I experienced a rash of pierced primers, and promptly quit using Blue Dot for that very reason. I suspected at the time that it was behaving similar to WW296. I don't use it anymore at all, though I'm sure that it does have it's place with others. I was just never that crazy about it to begin with for larger cases.

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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by El Chivo »

CBinNH wrote:Sobenk,
My Alliant Reloaders Guide from 1996 lists these loads for the 41 Magnum using Rem 2.5 primer from a 5.8 barrel:
200 HP - 14 gr Blue Dot - 1470 fps - 36,000 psi
210 JSP - 13.5 gr Blue Dot - 1425 fps - 33,800 psi
220JHP - 12.5 gr Blue Dot - 1365 fps - 35,800 psi
Well, this info looks in line with the other manuals I have (Lee and Nosler).

After asking this I found a book from Alliant with this load data in it. Also included were silhouette loads, many with rifle cartridges, using Blue Dot.

There is also a page of Cowboy Action loads, with even slower velocities. These make use of faster powders like Bullseye and Red Dot and Unique.

I'm interested to see what their new loading data will be.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by BobM »

I used to use it for 125s in the 357 and never had any trouble. I loaded about 1 grain under the max load (from Sierra or Lyman-it's been awhile). I've gotten away from it as I'm moving toward using only Unique and 2400 for my handgun loading anyway.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Blaine »

I've never thought of using BD as a "load down" powder, but as a Magnum powder for moderately heavy, but not as Heavy as H110.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Comal Forge »

I have used Blue Dot for close to 30 years in the .41 Mag, 44 Mag and 45 LC and 45 ACP for what I'd call +P loads. The .44 loads are 15.0 gr with a 250 Keith and yield just under 1200 fps out of a 6-1/2" bbl. Not a factory load but substantially hotter than Specials. I prefer it over 296 in the 45 LC in my 16" carbine because there is little muzzle flash at night - something you can't say with 296, which will singe your eyebrows. In all those years, I have never experienced pressure problems of any sort so I really hope they listed some bad loads and did not change the formula.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Idiot »

Blue Dot hasn't changed its loading data for years. But I do believe their powder has changed just enough to make some of their old (current) data a tad too hot for some loads. It appears that the .357 Magnum load listed and the 41 Magnum loads are the ones that are now a little too hot. It is easier for Alliant to simply say "scratch the whole line" than to say "back off a half grain or so." I am willing to bet a dollar to a donut that this is the case.

Blue Dot is my favorite handgun powder. To me it is the equivalent of IMR 4350; it can be used in a wide variety of standard cartridges with a variety of bullet weights and velocities. Blue Dot is outstanding.

For 25 years I used the same load of 10.8 grains of Blue Dot under a 158 grain jacketed bullet as my standard .357 Magnum load. This load is a safe maximum load and shoots well out of every .357 Magnum I've owned. Somewhere around 5 or 6 years ago, perhaps more, I loaded 2000 rounds of new cases and about an equal amount of used cases with this load. Again, I'd been shooting this load in excess of two decades. But, this time, when I went to shoot these loads I noticed that extraction was a bit sticky with the new brass, and very sticky with the used brass - sometimes having to be driven out with a rod and hammer. I pulled bullets, and checked the powder weight; it was right at 10.8 grains - where it had been for years. But something was different.

I wrote to Alliant Powder and asked if they'd changed Blue Dot at all. They said no that they didn't change it and that my sticky extraction is what could be expected from any full power load. I said okay, but still thought that something had changed. Look, I'd been using their powder for many years, and for at least 25 years in the .357 Magnum. I new something was different.

So, what did I do? Throw out my supply of Blue Dot and swear it off? Nope, I did what any experienced reloader would do, I reduced the charge. My new, well not so new any more, standard .357 Magnum load consists of 10.5 grains of Blue Dot. It performs exactly like the my previous load with no signs of high pressure. Blue Dot remains my favorite handgun Powder (with Unique nipping at its heels).

I suspect that whatever changed in Blue Dot was ever so slight. But with their data being right at maximum, that ever so slight change caused a few loads to be over pressure and this is how Alliant is dealing with it.

I've been reloading for a long time. During that time I've seen bullets change (I couldn't count the amount of times the 30 caliber 180 grain Nosler Partition has changed - not to mention the Remington Cor-Lokt), I've seen powders and primers change, as well as brass thickness and just about everything else under the umbrella of "reloading components." And in most instances, the manufacturer never says a thing. So, as always and as it should be, it is up to me, the reloader, to make sure that I load safe ammunition to put in my guns and take to the field. And even if the manufacturers informed me about every slight change, it would still be my responsibility to make sure that my target eye and my trigger finger remain attached and working - after all it is my eye and my finger.
Last edited by Idiot on Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Blaine »

Good post, Idiot.....
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by J Miller »

Idiot, others ..

Something was changed at Hercules / Alliant. It was the cellulose they use to make the nitro cellulose.
I can't find my text on this but a conversation with another forum member a year or so ago yielded this information.

The way I remember it is that the cellulose used to come from cotton. Then several years ago they switched to sawdust. The end product is still nitro cellulose, but it has a slightly different base and the new mix is a bit hotter.

That would account for any differences in the powder, and Alliants insistence that nothings changed.

I will see if I can find this conversation, but I have no idea where I put it.

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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Idiot »

J Miller wrote:Something was changed at Hercules / Alliant. It was the cellulose they use to make the nitro cellulose. I can't find my text on this but a conversation with another forum member a year or so ago yielded this information.

The way I remember it is that the cellulose used to come from cotton. Then several years ago they switched to sawdust. The end product is still nitro cellulose, but it has a slightly different base and the new mix is a bit hotter.
Now that answers some questions. Thanks Joe.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by stretch »

Yeah - thanks, Joe!

And you too, Idiot.

I might write them a letter and inquire........
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by CBinNH »

This was posted on the Rugerforum:

The following is the reply one of the fellows on the S&W Forum posted that he received from Alliant:

"Well, the main Alliant customer service guy is at Camp Perry shooting, but this morning I got a hold of a gentleman at Alliant who very graciously spent some time answering my questions. I feel much better about the situation.

I told him that I bought Blue Dot only for the .41 Mag. He asked what I was shooting, I told him my particular loading, and he told me, “That’s acceptable.” He told me that, as many of us had suspected, new tests showed that several of their previously published loads exceeded pressures they liked.

He told me that Alliant’s loadings run up to 98% of SAAMI pressures. New testing showed that some of the previously published .41 Magnum loadings exceeded that (though they were well under proof pressures). The gentleman mentioned what we’ve all heard before about there being new pressure-testing equipment and techniques, as well as different components introduced from time to time.

He told me that Alliant will be publishing new Blue Dot recipes for the .41 Magnum in the future, but that they wanted to get the news out right away that some of the loads were exceeding what they considered acceptable, and the blanket prohibition was their way of getting this done in a hurry."

This should help calm your anxiety.
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by mescalero1 »

Thanks
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by BrianSH »

I'm still amazed that Alliant updated their website. for years it was poor, and its a little better now.

Hodgdon is still the best.

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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by Sixgun »

simplify, simplify, simplify------

Handguns---Bullseye---Unique---2400

Rifles---5744/4198----4895----4350

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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by J Miller »

Aliant's data has always been on the anemic side. When Speer, Hornady, Sierra, and others show load data for Alliant powders that is within SAAMI levels and it's significantly higher than Alliants I have to wonder.

Not to mention the fact that they use ridiculously long test barrels to pad their pathetic velocities it causes me to question all their data and their warnings.


My simplification:

Handguns: 231, Unique, 2400
Rifles: 748, 760

Works for me. But it begs a question; why are there so many other brands and types of powder on my shelf???? I even got some of that funky IMR 3031 stuff :o

Joe
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Re: WARNING ABOUT BLUE DOT POWDER AND 357 AND 41 MAG

Post by El Chivo »

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I tried both Blue Dot and 2400, and don't like either one really. Some powders are dirty, some smell like sulfur, some are harder to spoon out, etc. Depends on what you like and what you are shooting.

My big issue is performance in hot weather, looks like I'll be able to shoot with 2 or 3 "Hojdon" powders and get even performance over the whole temperature range.

At our reloading store the clerk talks a lot about powders being changed and so old loading manuals aren't any good. He didn't want me to use the Lee manual at all even though I had bought it from him the week before. Though the Lee loads look to be consistent with what else I see.
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