86 barrel dovetails

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Montana22
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86 barrel dovetails

Post by Montana22 »

Anyone have any info if the dovetails on an 86 winchester big bore barrel are all machined with the same dovetail tool?
I understand the mag holder is a twist in dovetail.

Am also curious if the other three dovetails, forearm and sights are tapered dovetails or straight through even.
thanks.
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Sixgun
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Sixgun »

You will be an expert after reading this.....and you know the information will be correct.....could you imagine setting your milling machine to cut a dovetail that's .030 over normal?--------006
Last edited by Sixgun on Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Montana22
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Montana22 »

oh man, .030" over size would be a nightmare.....
Awesome, so thats the book to get, im on it.
thanks six gun.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Montana22 »

hey sixgun. I was at work when i saw your post. But the picture of the second edition 1886 and 1892 sure looked familiar. So when i got home I looked thru all my old boxes of books and lo and behold I have the first edition, 1866,1873 and 1876...and I have the second edition 1886 and 1892. Thanks so much for the reminder. its been 40 years since I have been into the 86 wins.
Unfortunately those books only give a cursory look into the 86 machining.
I am looking for actual dimensions. So I can build my own barrel. I have original 86 antiques to measure but dont want to blueprint in reverse, but thoroughly thought posting questions on this site would end up with lots of words of actual wisdom.
So in retrospect I will slow down on my build and try other resources to gather information.
Its really hard to believe that in this forum there isnt anyone to share info on the actual machining needed to convert to 50 cal. It must be a carefully protected secret.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetailst

Post by Sixgun »

No, it's not a carefully guarded secret. Virtually no one knows the exact measurements unless it's common like barrel lengths, dovetail slots (3/8' this) etc. Go look at your book....there's LOTS of measurements in there. There's really no need to know these things unless your a manufacturer or a high end gunsmith which no one here is. Most of us just shoot and collect them....I've been shooting antique Winchesters of all models for close to 50 years.

I guess you might be able to find the blueprints somewhere. With the internet, everyone is an "expert." :D -------006
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Montana22
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Montana22 »

Six gun.
Thanks for chiming in and correcting me, all is good, sorry my last message came out that way.. I'm not looking for blueprints just fun socialising thoughts from fellow enthusiasts. I stand corrected.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Sixgun »

Stay cool brother.......no one is correcting you......just spelling it out the way it is.......when it comes to these fine quality pre war Winchesters (and Colts) it's imperative we stay exact as these guns were exact, nothing like the junk replicas that are being produced in other countries that are here today.....broken tomorrow..... :D ----006
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

I must have my secret decoder ring set wrong. I don't see a link to a book.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Sixgun »

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Last edited by Sixgun on Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Pat C
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Pat C »

The sight dovetails and tendon are all 3/8" parallel . The sights usually have a tiny lead .The magazine hanger is a radial dovetail . I used a small rotary table to restore this 1892 barrel someone hacksawed off.
The locations I can get you ,pretty much standard on rifles.Dovetails are best cut with undersized cutter and cut close and trial fitted for peffect fit.
I 've got 1894 and 1892 prints I've made , Green Mountain has octagon blanks for Winchester rifles.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Montana22 »

Hi pat c.thanks for the info and great pics,exactly what I plan to do..
I've been on green mtn site a few times and can't find any 50cal barrels with a tighter twist then 1-24.
Ill call them in the morning and see if they have any barrels with a tighter twist.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Montana22 »

Pat c. The pic of the mag tube holder, what tool did you use for that?

And, what size dovetail tool did you use, and where is a good place to get that dovetail tool.
Thanks
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Pat C
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Pat C »

They are all standard 60 degree included angle dovetail cutters. Best to by either 6mm,8mm,or 5/16" diameter that way you can sneak up on final size.
The radial mag tube hanger dovetail I cut with barrel centered and mounted on small rotary table.

The rear sight dovetail, forend tennon, mag hanger, front sight dovetail are basically same on most all of the lever action models.The locations of the dovetails is same.

I made drawings from original 1892 and 1894 .

The cutters can be purchased on eBay or MSC
Make sure you get 60 degree included angle (30 per side)

You would be surprised how many I've made by hand and used as a single point cutter. Yeah I'm cheap!!
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Pat C
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Pat C »

The mag tube hanger you rough out with endmill to depth and rough opening. Then switch to dovetail cutter clean up on side .Then start roughing in opposite until hanger can be rotated radially with just light resistance.
Get close I take just .001 per pass until it right.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Montana22 »

patc, thanks for the great info. Any particular brand of cutter. Dont want a cheapo and have it break on me.
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Pat C
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Pat C »

Any USA made would be my first choice , its hit or miss on eBay but sometimes you find good deals.
Harvey Tool is good carbide ,you don't need but nice to have if price is right.
Brownells also has a variety of special dovetail cutters for gun work.
High speed steel is fine for barrel work.

When you start getting into smaller or metric dovetail cutters they may be import.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Some folks think the dovetails are cut with a taper. Wider on the right side, narrower on the left. But, that is just not the case. They are cut straight across. Then when the new sight is driven in the dove tail widens on the right side as the sight base swages down leaving the left side of the dovetail cut smaller than the right side.
That is why it is industry standard to install driving the sight in from the right side. Then to remove drive the sight from the left side back out. This is also why you see different measurements. Once the sight is installed then removed no two dovetail cuts are exactly alike. Plus they are difficult to consistently measure.
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by gamekeeper »

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:45 am Some folks think the dovetails are cut with a taper. Wider on the right side, narrower on the left. But, that is just not the case. They are cut straight across. Then when the new sight is driven in the dove tail widens on the right side as the sight base swages down leaving the left side of the dovetail cut smaller than the right side.
That is why it is industry standard to install driving the sight in from the right side. Then to remove drive the sight from the left side back out. This is also why you see different measurements. Once the sight is installed then removed no two dovetail cuts are exactly alike. Plus they are difficult to consistently measure.
Thanks Nate I found that interesting, sometimes we just take things for granted without thinking, well I know I do.. :?
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Pat C
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Pat C »

The sight is the part with the lead , usually one side has an tapered front and or corner. This is just to help start the sight. Yes they enter on the right side .

They actually make sizing tools where you can change or fit the dovetail to match sights of choice .They have a swage enlarger/sized and staking tool.

Many of the builders of long rifles use these hand tools.

Me I mill them until sight just starts ,then if needed few strokes from Brownells dovetail file makes it perfect.

There is one instant where the dovetail is opposite and has ruined several is on M14 /M1A service rifle .
They have standard 3/8 dovetail on clip guide ,but the guide is ta tapered to enter on left side.

The terminology mentioned above is too blame because for breaking the top off the dovetail on the receiver!!
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by coyote nose »

Rimfire McNutjob wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:58 am I must have my secret decoder ring set wrong. I don't see a link to a book.
I cant see the link either
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Pat C
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Re: 86 barrel dovetails

Post by Pat C »

The book is Collectors Only by Aurther Pirkle models 1886 and 1892. Had mine since late 90's .Lots of specifications .Although I have only loosely used any of the dimensions. Good books ,I have the 1894 and 1895 bok too.

https://www.amazon.com/Winchester-Lever ... 1882391136
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