Elmer Blows Up Another SAA

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:56 pm

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!
"I started to celebrate the morning of the Fourth. Picked up an old .45 S.A. Army 5 1/2 inch loaded with 40 grains bulk by my Ideal measure and 258 grain Ideal bullet, stepped out on an upstairs porch and turned the old gun at a 45 degree angle and started shooting. When the gun rose from recoil of my first cartridge I unconsciously hooked my thumb over the hammer spur and thus cocked gun as it recovered from the recoil. When I turned the next one loose I was almost deafened by the report and saw a little flash of flame. My hand automatically cocked gun and snapped again but no report. I stopped then knowing that something was wrong. The upper half of three chambers was gone. Also one cartridge and half of another case. Also the top strap over cylinder. My ears were ringing otherwise I was all O.K." (American Rifleman Aug. 1925)

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:42 pm

Was that the one, where he had his bullets sized for a 45/70 instead of a 45 colt; .458 instead of .454?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:33 pm

.

Definitely a risk-taker...
His book ‘Hell, I was there!” Is one of the most inspiring I’ve ever read.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:37 pm

Blaine wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:56 pm "I stopped then knowing that something was wrong." (American Rifleman Aug. 1925)

.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:48 pm

AJMD429 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:33 pm .

Definitely a risk-taker...
His book ‘Hell, I was there!” Is one of the most inspiring I’ve ever read.

Yep, great book! I also liked all of his earlier books. I think I may own them all.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:47 am

And yet people revere Elmer like he was some sort of God? I have his books, and enjoy reading them. But I never got the reverence to such a high level that I saw from so many. He was an experimenter, and often those experiments didn't seem well thought out to me?

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:38 am

Lastmohecken wrote: ↑Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:42 pm Was that the one, where he had his bullets sized for a 45/70 instead of a 45 colt; .458 instead of .454?

He wrote that it was a 258 gr Ideal bullet. That would not be a .45-70 bullet. In Sixguns, he wrote the following about his 300 grain loads:

"A few such experiences and a man might forget his breeches when he dressed in the morning, but he certainly would not forget his sixgun. Over the years I tried everything in the sixgun line, but when punching cows, I did not find anything in a factory load that would beat the old Remington .45 Colt with a 250 grain slug and 40 grains of black powder for use on livestock, as it certainly would penetrate and only brain or spine shots woudl kill a horse or mad cow fast enough to save the shooter. My 300 grain bullet handloads with 35 grains of black powder were just as good for the purpose, and opened much larger holes.

Finally, a weak .45 Colt case head blew off with this load. The gas blew the loading gate off the gun, breaking its shank and cutting through the flesh of my trigger finger. From this experience I decided the bullet was a bit heavy for the thin cases and thin chamber walls of the cylinders. I cut one band and groove from the mould leaving it to cast a 260 grain flat point bullet. This worked well with 40 grains of black powder. It was a very good game killer and flatter in its trajectory than the 300 grain slug with 35 grains of black."

I believe that he may have blown up more than one gun because the passage at the start of this thread describes different damage to the gun and to Keith's trigger finger.

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:49 am

marlinman93 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:47 am And yet people revere Elmer like he was some sort of God? I have his books, and enjoy reading them. But I never got the reverence to such a high level that I saw from so many. He was an experimenter, and often those experiments didn't seem well thought out to me?

Because he was an experimenter and a man who accomplished much and wrote about it. People do not think of him as any sort of "god" but rather respect him for his writings and experiences that we all still enjoy today.

But according to the Lefties, we should have no heroes. Heroes make people uncomfortable if they feel that they haven't been able to live up to their stories. However, I think that heroes help to shape us into better men. If nothing else, this is a cautionary tale to keep idiots from hurting themselves.

Theodore Roosevelt said: “The poorest way to face life is to face it with a sneer . . .A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticize work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life's realities—all these are marks, not ... of superiority but of weakness.” These words were said as an introduction to one of his greatest speeches, "The Man in the Arena."

I think that Elmer Keith was a man who suffered through great tragedy and injury. He served his country during wartime and did more to promote the use of a good sixgun than any writer of his time or ours. So yes, I revere Elmer Keith. He was one of those men Theodore Roosevelt spoke of. Not a "god" but certainly a man to be admired for his time in the Arena.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:09 am

I agree Scott. Those like him who are not bound by the "what if's" and prove things by actually doing it themselves are rare these days. Mr. Keith was one of them as was P.O. Ackley and others who changed the shooting world. If not for them we would not have the amazing firearms that we have today. They were not afraid to challenge the conventional wisdom .. which is often just hearsay in a fresh wrapper.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:24 am

I never met Elmer Keith. I'm sure there were many who didn't agree with his opinions, then, and now. But one thing is certain, he DID stuff.
I don't think blowing up a Colt single action meant the same thing then as it does now. How many champion racers haven't ever crashed and wrecked a bike or car? The "line" is where champions live.
I'm also sure if he was at a "shooting range" today, he would be thrown out for unsafe gun handling. He was of a different time. He was a man of HIS time testing limits.
I would pay good money for a chance to spend a few hours with him. Nobody will say that of me in 50 years.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:02 pm

marlinman93 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:47 am And yet people revere Elmer like he was some sort of God? I have his books, and enjoy reading them. But I never got the reverence to such a high level that I saw from so many. He was an experimenter, and often those experiments didn't seem well thought out to me?

Yea.....all those useless experiments with bullet design......all those stupid "Keith" bullets with the full groove driving band and semi wadcutter design supposed to "hit with the hammer of Thor". Ha! People don't know you can do the same with a 25 Auto full patch rn.

And that stupid design of the Model 70 rifle and some worthless cartridges called the .357 mag., 41 Mag., and the 44 mag!

Can you imagine doing something as asinine as necking up the 30-06 to better anchor elk and other dangerous game?

He came from nothing at a time when a dollar looked as big as his hat and just because he literally rose from the ashes and defied all odds just to survive life and become world renowned sure doesn't make him a God....but ya can't get much closer.---00

Nothing personal MM but running Elmer Keith down to seasoned knowledgeable shooters is the same as telling a group of black people that MLK was a fake.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:31 pm

My copy of Sixguns I bought new is fifty years old . He is and always will be my favorite author. I New He was gifted but when I read "shotguns by Keith" many years later I was stunned. If I re-member right His Gun collection sold for 1.7 mil. when He died Skeeter Skelton wrote that Keith was the most accurate judge of distance He ever saw. from a life time of practice. He was and is the Real Deal .

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:49 pm

Elmer was and shall always be the King....He just didn't have very good material with which to work up his heavy loads. No matter how good the SAA was/is, it's not strong enough to take such overloading. Much like the S&W 19 is not up to continued shooting with heavy +P loads before loosening up a bit.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:52 pm

Someone has to be a driving force if things are going to progress. An old saying is something about the dogs barking but the caravan continues on its way. Some people are the caravan, and the naysayers are the barking dogs. We sort of need both types. Safety for most is good, but without the few who risk much, nothing will move forward.

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:40 pm

Reading the first post again, does “40 grains bulk” mean 40 grains of black powder?

Post by **AmBraCol** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:52 pm

Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:40 pm Reading the first post again, does “40 grains bulk” mean 40 grains of black powder?

That is a good question. At the time he wrote smokeless was in its infancy, and they used the old black powder measures to measure the new powder, going by bulk instead of weight. It looks a bit ambiguous, I'd be tempted to think that it was actually one of the newer powders and had been loaded to the same bulk as 40 grains of FFFg would have produced. But that's just putting two and two together and carrying five to get a wild guess.

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:01 pm

That’s what I’m thinking too. Generally it’s hard to put enough black powder in that case to raise pressures

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:21 pm

.

Elmer definitely had a crazy-streak to do the things he did.

I don’t view him as a saint or anything, but a sterling example of ‘the young America’ from the 1850’s through 1950’s that was filled with risk-takers and adventurers, expanding out horizons (literally), our economy, our world influence, and dominating many new technologies.

That kind of person doesn’t always play with others, and would no doubt get thrown out of any gun range, justifiably. But then again the boundaries they push yield benefits for the rest of us.

Many like him probably DID die during one of their crazy experiments. We celebrate the lucky ones who invent or discover stuff we like.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:41 pm

Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:01 pm That’s what I’m thinking too. Generally it’s hard to put enough black powder in that case to raise pressures

SAA problems, not Elmer problems.... S&W took the lead on providing reliable revolvers for 44 mag and 357.....

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:16 am

At the time there was a semi smokeless or smokeless powder that was non fouling and was loaded with the same bulk as black.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:08 am

Sixgun wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:16 am At the time there was a semi smokeless or smokeless powder that was non fouling and was loaded with the same bulk as black.

salute.JPG

That is the answer. Semi-smokeless powder was a mechanical mixture of mostly black powder and a fairly small proportion of nitrocellulose. It was useful because it could be loaded bulk-for-bulk with black and had similar ballistic properties but left significantly less fouling in the bore. The stuff Keith was using was made by Kings.

kings.jpg

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:18 am

I lean more Vall's way on Keith. He was a great American and a fine gun experimenter and writer, but I don't buy everything he wrote, including his belief that the .30-06 was about worthless. I admit bias on the '06, however, as my Dad carried a Springfield in combat in WWII and then in the hunting fields the rest of his life, and he did fine with it.
I thought Jack O'Connor was more balanced in his views on hunting rifles, but no one could beat Keith in sheer experience with handguns. Not even Colonel Cooper.
I have read "Sixguns" several times, and "Hell, I was There" at least twice. It is three feet from where I sit. Nothing can take away from what Keith lived through.
Maybe our disagreement here is more about "worshipping at the Church of Keith," versus admiring a man but admitting he had some flaws. (Ask to hear P.O. Ackley's stories about Keith and his temper while at the Ogden Arsenal.)
This is not unpatriotic, or Leftie stuff. It is each of us using our reason and experience to choose how high to elevate our heroes. And Keith is one of my heroes. I can't think of a better American to recall on the Fourth of July. Thanks, Blaine.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:44 am

I expected to get some backlash for saying anything derogatory about Elmer, as that is usually what happens to anyone who does say anything less than glowing about him. That's OK with me, as I have no problem with others having a different opinion.
Keith was a prolific writer, and often it's his own writings that made me cringe over the years. His numerous mishaps that ruined firearms, or went awry, did lead to good things also. He was always trying to push things to a hotter level, which was common in his time, and done by several other noted gunsmiths, and gun writers. His age was the age of numerous wildcat cartridge development, and not unusual that Elmer was doing the same. I just don't read of the others having the mishaps, so maybe they didn't, or maybe they hid the results?
But Elmer's writings reveal a guy who also wasn't afraid to take less than ethical shots on game also. He mentions in his writings about some people he guided that were not good hunters, or good shots. Then also mentions taking 400 yd. shots at game with a handgun, and shooting until he finally dropped the game. That was another description that made me less of a fan.
I know Elmer did a lot of good work developing firearms; I just don't hold him as highly as some others do personally.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:40 pm

No pain.....no gain......those that live in the shadows of safety live off the sweat of others who don't. Elmer had the scars to prove it. There's not an invention or great deed that didn't come with blood being spilled so the rest of us can keep our blood.-----006

Go Elmer!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:12 pm

People that that think know everything there is to know about firearms, but remain ornery/disagreeable, abound.

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:29 pm

marlinman93 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:44 am I know Elmer did a lot of good work developing firearms; I just don't hold him as highly as some others do personally.

The nice thing is that we can disagree on this and still be friends. I never met Mr. Keith, but I sure enjoyed his work.

I know people who say horrible things about people that I did know (Askins for example) and while I understand where they come from, it isn't where he came from. Gotta give a man a little leeway, especially when he can no longer stand up for himself.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:14 pm

IN RESPECT TO ELEMER I WILL WRITE IN ALL CAPS. FOR MANY YEARS I WONDERED HOW ANYONE OUT IN THE FAR REACHES OF MONTANA OR IDHIO COULD LEARN EVERY THING WITH OUT THE INTERNET...................IT TURNES OUT THAT FROM THE LATE TWENTIES ON THAT KEITH WROTE AND RESPNEDED TO A HUNDERED OR MORE LETTERS EVERY MONTH.....ALL WHILE LIVING ON THE RANGE ,GUIDING HUNTERS AND ANSWERING QUESTIONS FROM THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.....................
O.K. I'm AN OLDED GEEZER ......................BUT GET THE BOOK "LETTERS FROM ELMER KEITH" AND we WILL GET AN INSIGHT ON JUST WHAT A DRIVEING FORCE ELMER WAS.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:29 pm

BTW, thread was about the SAA's weakness, not Elmer.... But, at the beginning, I suppose that's all he had to work with.
Perhaps a Colt/Walker with another cyl would have held up better?

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:32 pm

Blaine, and here I thought it was about remembering a colorful and legendary American on the Fourth of July!

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:15 pm

Deleted.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:22 pm

Keep in mind that during those times, thousands of black powder Colts were still in circulation.....Elmer didn't say what era his gun was from.

As far as knowing guns, I know little compared to real experts with a mechanical engineering degree...I'm nothing more than a serious hobbyist.....I know virtually nothing about metallurgy or the science behind gunpowder pressure peaks. And I never claimed to. I took the smart way out and instead of spending 8 years in college, I just bought up all those guns that the 8 year college guys designed.....and made just as much money.

-----double O Six

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:43 pm

Interesting discussion of Gun writers and experimenters as gods and kings depending on point of view.

One observation according to the subject of the post and rules of grammar, Elmer is the subject, SAAs is the object. Therefore the subject of the post is Elmer. Were SAAs to be the subject that should be in the subject of the thread title.

Let the games continue ..,

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:41 pm

I think the first pic is misleading as Elmer sure was not 26 years old when that was taken.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:59 pm

Deleted.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:28 am

Ray wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:59 pm Thanks tubaman for the o.p. and the patriotic sentiment behind it......

The arrogant p r i c k s just won't leave you alone !

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:32 am

Old Savage wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:43 pm Interesting discussion of Gun writers and experimenters as gods and kings depending on point of view.

One observation according to the subject of the post and rules of grammar, Elmer is the subject, SAAs is the object. Therefore the subject of the post is Elmer. Were SAAs to be the subject that should be in the subject of the thread title.

Let the games continue ..,

You're not a very good mind reader, wot?

mickbr · Post by **mickbr** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:21 am

I dont judge Elmer on his experimentation or long shots on game. No different driving a car too fast. Dangerous yes, unecessary yes, unethical yes, risk to other drivers yes... but we all like to do it every now and then. Also the past is like another country, they do things differently there.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:34 pm

Blaine wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:28 am
Ray wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:59 pm Thanks tubaman for the o.p. and the patriotic sentiment behind it......

The arrogant p r i c k s just won't leave you alone !

The subtle threats in the sig. lines are always amusing and show lack of character....

There, that makes it all better. I do believe the hot air coming from the east is causing climate change.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:30 pm

Forgotten Weapons has a interesting video on the subject. Undeniably both the man and the sixgun are legends no matter what.
https://youtu.be/3t5X8f__vpk

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:38 pm

I understand that one of the reasons Colt downsized the Walkers was that the cylinders would occasionally let loose with that large powder charge. But I must confess that I do not remember where I read that.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:10 pm

More than a few years ago I read an article in the Black Powder Cartridge News or the American Single Shot Rifle Association magazines or there was a thread about the old semi-smokeless powders.

If memory serves me, the semi-smokeless or such bulk powders faded as: (a) smokeless continued to improve, and (b) the semi-smokeless powders became unstable after a period of time, causing catastrophic increased pressure spikes or detonations in the old black powder firearms.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:37 pm

Ray Newman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:10 pm More than a few years ago I read an article in the Black Powder Cartridge News or the American Single Shot Rifle Association magazines or there was a thread about the old semi-smokeless powders.

If memory serves me, the semi-smokeless or such bulk powders faded as: (a) smokeless continued to improve, and (b) the semi-smokeless powders became unstable after a period of time, causing catastrophic increased pressure spikes or detonations in the old black powder firearms.

I read Townsend Whelen's "The American RIfle" this year. We've come a LONG way from those early powders. And that's a GOOD thing. But I confess to a great curiosity about them. We went through a similar change in the Amazon Valley back in the 70's/80's of the 20th Century. There were some interesting powders that came along to replace the good old Elefante and Rinoceronte and such FFFg that was readily available. Most of the folks I knew preferred to keep on using the good old black powder as their shotguns were way to corroded to put up with the increased pressures of the new powders.

piller · Post by **piller** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:26 pm

Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:38 pm I understand that one of the reasons Colt downsized the Walkers was that the cylinders would occasionally let loose with that large powder charge. But I must confess that I do not remember where I read that.

The Texas Ranger Museum in Waco had something in their display about that. Enough of the Walkers would blow up on the first or second cylinder full that the Rangers started carving a log to tie the pistols into and using about a 20 foot string to pull the trigger. If they stood up to two cylinders full, then they were good for a long time. Metallurgy and heat treatment were not as good back then as they are now. The higher pressures we use today in some cartridges such as .454 Casull would probably destroy even a good pistol from the 1800s.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:32 am

Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:38 pm I understand that one of the reasons Colt downsized the Walkers was that the cylinders would occasionally let loose with that large powder charge. But I must confess that I do not remember where I read that.

I always heard it was because they weighed almost as much as most carbines! And with many Rangers packing two on their hips a 4.5 lb. handgun could really wear a guy out after a long day in the saddle!

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:46 am

They were heavy. Lots of folks back then had holsters on the saddle for the big guns.

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:03 pm

During the common use of the Walker, I do not think we had a bunch of Texas Rangers walking around with a brace of those big pistols on their hips.

The only person I can confirm carried a brace was Captain Samuel Walker, and he did not do so for long. He was killed in battle in the Mexican American war in 1847 shortly after recieving the brace of revolvers that bore his name.

Only 1100 of these were made, 1000 were for a military contract and 100 for civilian purchase.

Of note, the The Republic of Texas purchased about 180 Colt Patterson revolvers for the Texas Navy in 1839.

When Samuel Houston disbanded the Texas Navy in 1843, Captain Jack Hays armed his company of Texas Rangers with surplus stocks of the pistols.

The Paterson revolver was especially decisive in the Battle of Bandera Pass (about 30 miles from where I sit as the crow flies).

I'm betting that there were not a lot of Walker Colts in the hands of Texas Rangers at any given time. Of course during this period the Rangers were basically militia units and not the law enforcement agency that they later became. I think pistols were in short supply and the Rangers were more reliant on their rifles.

Here is a photo of three Texas Rangers taken in July of 1873. The two who are seated are relatives on my mother’s side and the photo was taken in Medina County. Note that there’s only one small pistol in the photo.

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:09 pm

Contrast this with an 1894 photo of Rangers in Isleta Texas.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:03 am

Scott Tschirhart wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:03 pm During the common use of the Walker, I do not think we had a bunch of Texas Rangers walking around with a brace of those big pistols on their hips.

The only person I can confirm carried a brace was Captain Samuel Walker, and he did not do so for long. He was killed in battle in the Mexican American war in 1847 shortly after recieving the brace of revolvers that bore his name.

Only 1100 of these were made, 1000 were for a military contract and 100 for civilian purchase.

Of note, the The Republic of Texas purchased about 180 Colt Patterson revolvers for the Texas Navy in 1839.

When Samuel Houston disbanded the Texas Navy in 1843, Captain Jack Hays armed his company of Texas Rangers with surplus stocks of the pistols.

The Paterson revolver was especially decisive in the Battle of Bandera Pass (about 30 miles from where I sit as the crow flies).

I'm betting that there were not a lot of Walker Colts in the hands of Texas Rangers at any given time. Of course during this period the Rangers were basically militia units and not the law enforcement agency that they later became. I think pistols were in short supply and the Rangers were more reliant on their rifles.

Here is a photo of three Texas Rangers taken in July of 1873. The two who are seated are relatives on my mother’s side and the photo was taken in Medina County. Note that there’s only one small pistol in the photo.

Even one 4.5 lb. handgun would be plenty of weight to pack constantly.

Scott Tschirhart · Post by **Scott Tschirhart** » Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:51 pm

marlinman93 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:03 am Even one 4.5 lb. handgun would be plenty of weight to pack constantly.

No doubt. Josie Wales would probably drown in a river with all the iron he carried! And a Dragoon is considerably lighter than a Walker.

biggfoot44 · Post by **biggfoot44** » Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:33 pm

As to * The 400 yard Shot(s) * , you have to consider the context .

His client wounded the Elk with his rifle . The client expended the rest of his ammunition unsuccessfully attempting to put down the Elk , as it was moving farther away .

Elmer only used his revolver once there was no other alternative .

?*****************************8

Yes , Walkers ( and subsequent Dragoons ) were at least in theory, intention , and doctrine issued in Pairs .

But not for carry on the belt , but rather in a pair of saddle holsters .