What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

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Dutch Oven
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What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Dutch Oven »

Hello, I bought a new Rossi 92 almost two years ago. It's only been to the range a couple of times and I've put maybe two hundred rounds through it. I don't reload and have only used standard factory ammunition from major manufacturers. I have never loaned it to anyone. While re-oiling after an extended stay in the safe, I noticed a series of cuts and gouges on the bolt carrier face (pics attached). I had taken the gun apart to replace the ejector spring before my first trip to the range and didn't notice any damage. I may have missed it after my first and second trips to the range because I only gave it a quick cleaning - I was figuring on going back soon. It's been suggested that it is damage from the factory that I somehow missed, or that maybe somebody used a steel cleaning rod from the muzzle end to knock the bolt loose if it were stuck. The possibility of excessive head space was brought up also. So, I'm wondering if anyone has seen anything like this and if it's safe to shoot. Of course, it's out of warranty. Any insights or questions would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by AJMD429 »

Welcome to the forum. That is definitely unusual looking, but I’m sure someone here with more experience than me will have some ideas about it.

My main concern would be questioning whether the bolt face was hardened properly, because whatever caused those dings had to be harder than the bolt face, and most of the things like cleaning rods and cartridge cases that hit the boat face are made of brass or fairly soft metal.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Sixgun »

AJMD429 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:30 pm
My main concern would be questioning whether the bolt face was hardened properly, because whatever caused those dings had to be harder than the bolt face, and most of the things like cleaning rods and cartridge cases that hit the boat face are made of brass or fairly soft metal.
That's my theory.......soft inferior steel a bit harder than warm butter........something was hitting it to be that bashed up. The primer hole looks like it took a beating too and in my opinion would not be safe to shoot or your going to get a face full of gas from a blown primer. I'd be worried about bolt thrust throwing the bolt out of the grooves.

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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by KWK »

It's hard to imagine you'd miss that mess when you changed the ejector spring, but it seems the best explanation. Even if the steel is soft, there's nothing about the base of a cartridge that should cause that. Since the bolt face is a mess already, you might take a bit of soft steel, such as a common nail's head, and tap it lightly with a hammer against the bolt face; it shouldn't mark. If there's no burr poking out towards the primer, I'd be willing to shoot it, but if it's a 357, I might back off to 38 Spl.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Old Savage »

Steve Young of Stevesgunz is the man to ask. He has done the most work with these guns

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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by GunnyMack »

I'd say lack of heat treatment and as you mentioned it appears like the bolt was knocked loose by a cleaning rod.
Talk to your local machine shop, they probably have a Rockwell hardness tester. Take the bolt out and have them test it to see if it is soft.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

First, not all parts are hardened to the same level. Heat treat is done at different hardness depending on the application of the part. Parts that are too hard will shatter.

As for the breech bolt here, most likely the lever to breech bolt plug screw was too long and was binding on the bolt when it was fully tightened. Then someone damage the bolt face trying to clear it.
Rossi is notorious for drilling the plug screw hole in the reciever too deep. So, when you tighten the plug screw it binds the action. Rossi's fix is to just leave the screw loose. Then of course I get folks all the time looking for replacement plug screws.
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Hell, I would shoot it and look a the empty cartridge cases. I'll bet it doesn't affect function or safety at all.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by earlmck »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:00 am Hell, I would shoot it and look a the empty cartridge cases. I'll bet it doesn't affect function or safety at all.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Dutch Oven »

Thanks for all the input. I've also had to replace that little grub screw once. I might file the end of it down so I can tighten it up. If anyone abused that bolt carrier to get it loose, it wasn't me. It would have had to been done at the factory. I don't see how I would have missed all that damage - but possible I guess. Does it mean anything that the ejector face is undamaged? I was thinking maybe I installed the ejector incorrectly and that it couldn't close flush with the bolt face and created a headspace issue. The ejector would be tight against the head of the cartridge and the bolt face would be backed off a bit, letting gas in to cut up the face or allowing for pierced primers. I suppose it could also mean the ejector is harder than the bolt carrier. I ordered and received a replacement bolt carrier from Rossi, but it was stainless (mine is blued) and it was longer than the original carrier. The machining was awful compared to the original. It might have been made in their old factory since it had the big F and S for the safety instead of the little red dot mine has. I'll be returning it. Thanks again for all the information - I'm learning a lot.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I'm amazed that you could buy any part from Rossi. They have not been responsive to me and all I wanted was a rear sight assembly (the dovetail on one of my rifles is much larger than a standard dovetail).
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Dutch Oven »

I've been lucky. Had some pleasant conversations with customer service. Last year they didn't charge me anything for the grub screw, but they did send me the wrong bolt carrier - even with the serial number to the rifle a few weeks ago. All the gals I talked to had great Georgia accents. I'm tempted to call back just to hear them talk.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Buck Elliott »

That's the kind of damage that occurs when Numb-Nutz drops a steel cleaning rod down the bore, while the rifle is standing in a gun cart, at a SASS match.

Suddenly, sales clerks and office boys who never learned how things work, are Cowboys and firearms "experts.."

What better way is there to transport an assembled cleaning rod, than to drop it down the barrel between stages ???

Stupid us as stupid does.. Forrest was smater than he knew...
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by 765x53 »

Buck Elliott wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:18 pm That's the kind of damage that occurs when Numb-Nutz drops a steel cleaning rod down the bore, while the rifle is standing in a gun cart, at a SASS match.

Suddenly, sales clerks and office boys who never learned how things work, are Cowboys and firearms "experts.."

What better way is there to transport an assembled cleaning rod, than to drop it down the barrel between stages ???

Stupid us as stupid does.. Forrest was smater than he knew...
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by AJMD429 »

Dutch Oven wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:30 pmAll the gals I talked to had great Georgia accents. I'm tempted to call back just to hear them talk.
:D ...I used to love the voice of the woman who recorded the "the number you have dialed is no longer in service....area code 206-2" message that I often got when working as an assistant dispatcher for the Northwest States for a trucking company. Sometimes if I got a few seconds (rare) to spare and was bored, I'd just dial a number that I knew was no longer in service. :wink:
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by .45colt »

One thing for sure.......this aint the First time Buck has seen this...... :shock: .
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Buck Elliott »

As a SASS shooter and gunsmith, you get to see a lot of strange "occurrances.."
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Trailboss »

I would expect a cleaning rod to leave round or circular marks. These look more like someone took a piece of 1/4" hot rolled round and snipped it with a bolt cutter. Then proceeded to pound it on the bolt causing the marks in the cold rolled bolt (softer steel than hot rolled). I doubt it would have been done at the factory but more likely Bubba's gun and moonshine emporium. "Boss, I got the bolt moving and it's all set for the customer."
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Griff »

While I've never seen a cleaning rod in a barrel at at SASS match... I can believe it. I have a .22 cleaning jag, (one of the slotted ones for putting a patch thru), that would absolutely leave marks like that. (I keep my range rod in two loops on the side of my cart)!
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by M. M. Wright »

Guilty Buck. Yeah, I've done the very thing and those marks look just like the end of the slotted jag on the end of my military cleaning rod. I even recall borrowing a rod from Tex at Smoke In The Valley and just dropping it back in his rifle barrel when finished wiping mine. We SASS shooters are really hard on guns.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Dutch Oven »

Again, thanks for all the wisdom. I don't like cleaning from the muzzle and don't recall ever doing that in this case. Of course, I can't remember where I put my glasses half the time so maybe I just forgot about running a rod down the barrel. I'll grab a cleaning rod and a jag or two and see what happens.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Dutch Oven wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:26 pm Again, thanks for all the wisdom. I don't like cleaning from the muzzle and don't recall ever doing that in this case. Of course, I can't remember where I put my glasses half the time so maybe I just forgot about running a rod down the barrel. I'll grab a cleaning rod and a jag or two and see what happens.
Most likely this was done at the factory. Once it's assembled and it's stuck closed, it looks like they use a rod down the bore to see if it will get it moving without having to take it apart. If it doesn't then they back that plug screw out some, just leaving it loose.
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Dutch Oven
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Dutch Oven »

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:30 pm Most likely this was done at the factory. Once it's assembled and it's stuck closed, it looks like they use a rod down the bore to see if it will get it moving without having to take it apart. If it doesn't then they back that plug screw out some, just leaving it loose.
Well, shame on them if that's the case - and shame on me if I missed it. Is it safe to shoot?
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by AJMD429 »

As almost the polar opposite of a ‘qualified gunsmith’, I can at least honestly say that if the gun were mine, I would probably use an emry-board or Dremel tool or something to file the bulges off the face of that bolt and go ahead and shoot it. I’d carefully look at the primers and make sure there wasn’t much primer protruding back into the firing pin hole. If that was happening I’d reserve it for low pressure loads or replace the bolt or have somebody with the necessary skills build up the bolt and re-grind the firing pin channel.

Keep in mind that this is a very experienced physician giving gunsmithing advice, so it’s kind of the same as going to your local gun shop and asking the guy at the counter whether that lump on your left testicle is a cyst, or cancer... :D :o
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Buck Elliott »

Removing the dilated metal only compounds the problem..
Using a flat-faced punch, carefully peen the displaced material "flat", to refill the odd civots in the bolt face.
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Re: What would cause this damage to breach bolt face?

Post by Pat C »

I too would have said steel military cleaning rod did this.
Very few parts on a Rossi are very hard maybe trigger and hammer. I would have also said maybe new to you but previously owned damaged and returned passed off as new?

I like the idea mentioned of just lightly peening high spots down and even better to just skim the face afterwards maybe .0005" - .001" to make sure its flat and firing pin hole has no burrs.
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