No offense to John Browning, but....

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AJMD429
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No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by AJMD429 »

....Every time I have to do something simple to Winchester 92, even just clean the chamber, I realize why I like Marlins better.
C54AD301-8FE7-4C6A-A352-E8DB63264BD0.jpeg
All I wanted to do was brush out the chamber from the breech but of course unlike the Marlin, where you can easily just take out one screw, drop the lever and remove the bolt for breech access, you have to drive out to pin after removing that cover screw which in my case meant also removing the quick detach scope base. So far no big deal. Undo the lever to bolt screw and pin, and remove the bolts next. Then, you can’t slide the bolt out without removing the hammer, but the saddle ring prevents removal of the hammer screw. Then of course when the bolt is halfway back, the ejector pops out and pieces go everywhere. Maybe I can just remove the hammer strut and take enough tension off of it to pull the hammer back farther, but no that won’t work. So I slide the bolt forward and before all of the guts of the ejector fall out they are catching on the guide rails, so I remove those. I’m never able to get a direct shot at the chamber, so I clean it best I can.

Now I have to reassemble the mess, including getting the ejector back in place somehow, without being able to remove the bolt.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by AJMD429 »

For now, I’m going to put the parts in a Ziploc bag before I lose my patience. That never works out well. Speaking of losing patience the other reason I’m not wanting to try to do this right now is that a friend of one of my patients, who also is a lifetime friend, told me that my patient and friend just passed away. I found out through the rumor mill that he was in the hospital, but they don’t ever contact the primary care physician unless the primary care physician is actually an employee of the hospital, because evidently they consider non-employees disloyal. It’s just amazing that our healthcare system has become that politicized and screwed up. I will try to call the hospital now to see if what our mutual friend heard through fellow Church members is indeed true, but often, the hospital won’t release any information to the primary care physician unless we are an employee. I’ve pretty much lost all respect for the healthcare system the way it is now implemented.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by JimT »

Not sure if this will help or not ...

http://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/field_strip.htm
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Rockrat »

I bought some swabs from Midway and some from Dillon which are more like super sized q-tips. Should work for you without dis-assembling anything.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by fordwannabe »

Doc, sorry to hear about your friend. As to the 92! Insert a rod With a guide down the barrel from the muzzle, Then attach the brush in the action and brush as normal but from the muzzle end orrrrr get a bore snake.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by AJMD429 »

Yeah, I should have known better and just cleaned it one of the bendable-ways, or from the muzzle.

As to my friend and hunting buddy, who pretty much taught me field-dressing of deer, he did indeed pass, from CoVid. He hadn’t seen me for a couple years since I didn’t take his insurance, and our Direct Pay rate was $60/month and $20/visit - that would have only been $800/year, likely less than his deductible he would shell out somewhere anyway, but people have their priorities.

I’m livid that the hospitals only see fit to communicate properly with physicians who are their (excessively well) paid employees, but that’s the norm these days. (...currently they pay $5,000/week got family docs - give $1,500 to the tax-man, live nicely on $1,000/week, or even VERY nicely on $1,500/week after-taxes, and every Friday stack $2,000 cash on your new barbecue grill just to watch it burn...that’s what you give up when you stay an ‘independent’ physician... :? ...any idea why a wife would stick with someone stubborn enough to give THAT up...???).

Anyway, the gun can wait; gotta budget the time to help my friend’s next of kin if I can.

If he’d have still been my patient he’d have known about zinc and vitamin D and so on, and probably had a way better chance.

I’ll post about my own recent adventure with CoVid when I’m up to it...bottom line = ZINC.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by GunnyMack »

Sorry to hear that Doc!
I lost a friend this week too, leukemia survivor, heart problems, colitis etcetc but no covid!
Been taking ZINC daily for years!

Tom is right, get a bore snake or just clean it when it stops working- think .22 lr semiauto.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Doc, sorry for your travails, and yes, the Winchesters are a chore to clean from the breech end.
As to losing your friend, my condolences. This virus is on the march right now and taking names, at least down here near El Paso.
As to dietary supplements, here is interesting support for their importance, from Reuters this morning:

The immune response to the new coronavirus shifts dramatically as patients transition from mild to moderate illness, information that has implications for patient care, researchers reported on Wednesday in Cell. "Moderate disease (hospitalized but not intubated) is very different from mild disease ... but pretty similar to severe disease," said coauthor James Heath of the Institute for Systems Biology in Seattle, whose team studied 139 COVID-19 patients of all severity levels. Once COVID-19 patients become moderately ill, "strong inflammatory signals urge the body to mount a strong response," Heath explained. "However, there is a severe depletion of nutrients in the blood that provide the raw materials for building that response," and "unusual and dysfunctional immune responses begin to appear, increasing as the severity increases." The same is true in severe disease, only more so, he said. The findings suggest new drugs should be tested in moderately ill patients. "It is easier to treat patients at that stage because they are more likely to respond," Heath said. Furthermore, the depletion of blood nutrients suggests that non-pharmaceuticals, such as dietary supplements, might help the response of these patients, he said.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Larkbill »

I found a youtube video by a dude in Australia that had the simplest and easiest hacks for reassembling a 92. The biggest tip was using a fired case to hold the ejector parts in place while getting the bolt and lever mated. Not sure about the originals, but on my Rossi that collar on the ejector strut has a tendency to cock sideways and jam unless compressed almost fully. Only thing I did wrong was not getting Steve's spring for the ejector before I took it apart last time. Original one is ridiculously stiff.

What I find incredible is that Winchester was able to manufacture and assemble these at the rate they did with the available labor force.
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Done

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Done
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by marlinman93 »

Many, many decades ago I decided to collect Winchester 1894/94 rifles. I figured every red blooded collector should collect Winchesters, and even though it seemed most did, I jumped on board too! After amassing a very small collection of about 6 variations, I was at a gun show wanting to sell or trade a 1894 Carbine in .25-35 caliber. I was into rifles, so didn't care much for a carbine.
I went past a guy's table who had a lot of Winchesters for sale, and he asked to look at mine. He wanted it, but I didn't see anything on his table I wanted. He didn't want to buy mine outright, as he said he hadn't made a sale yet. He offered me a 1893 Marlin rifle, and I told him I knew nothing about them, but didn't want one either. He began to tell me how "special" his 1893 was, and I sort of ignored most of what I felt was embellishment. Eventually he offered the 1893 to me for my gun and $100 more from me! Of course I was repelled at the offer, and told him I wouldn't trade if it was straight across.
After some more haggling, and debate, he eventually offered me his Marlin and $50 to boot, and I caved in and took the deal. I got home with this off brand gun, and began to disassemble it, just to see how they were made. I was shocked at the simplicity, and amazed at how easily it came apart, and went together! I quickly noticed it needed a couple repairs like buggered screws, and a rear firing pin half spring. I was lucky to have a friend in Larry Osborn who was just miles away, and sold Marlin screws and parts. I went to his house and he sold me the pieces I needed.
While there he began to rave about the old 1893, and told me how unusual it was, being a takedown, with the "long lever" takedown. Then mentioned the even rarer factory fitted Whitney Kennedy trapdoor buttplate. And the unusual sights on the gun, plus the .25-36 Marlin caliber.
I left feeling really good about the trade, but also wondering why I was accumulating Winchester 1894's? Within 6 months I had sold all my 6 Win. rifles, and replaced them with 8 Marlin rifles. Marlins sold much cheaper than Win. back then, so my gun money went way farther! I even had cash leftover after selling and buying the guns.
I still own that 1893 Marlin, and realize how lucky I was that the seller wanted my carbine so badly back then! It started me down a path I've always been happy to have taken!

This was a $550 1893 Marlin back in the 1980's.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Sixgun »

fordwannabe wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:48 pm As to the 92! Insert a rod With a guide down the barrel from the muzzle, Then attach the brush in the action and brush as normal but from the muzzle end orrrrr get a bore snake.
THATS my boy! I took this young man under my wing.....well done T-Boner!!!! :D

Yes, the Marlins are much easier to clean and a much simpler action but in the end, a Marlin is what it is and the same with a Winchester...

Using common sense, Marlins should have outsold the Winchesters 10-1 but it's the other way around.....Winchester got started sooner and the legend spread......

In my day rifle for rifle, condition for condition, variation for variation Marlins brought about 30% less than a Winchester and still do. One thing for sure, either one will last several lifetimes......as long as they were built before the cost savings measures came out.

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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by crs »

Since I bought My 100 + year old Winchester 1892, it has not been taken apart by anyone but a qualified gunsmith.
However, when I bought 1886 and 1895 Miroku/Winchester rifles I did remember to shop for and buy take down models. :)
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by marlinman93 »

There's more to Winchester outselling Marlin than just starting sooner. John Marlin was well known for not wanting to expand his business. Even when he could have easily added both employees and enlarged his buildings, he refused to because he didn't feel increases in orders would be long term. So as his repeating rifle business grew, he simply let orders back up. That meant that as people were waiting on rifle orders they sometimes gave up and went to a Winchester instead. I read at one point around the late 1880's his backlog of gun orders was about a year. Not many people were willing to wait for a gun that long.
And with Ballard rifle sales being more than the factory could keep up with once the 1881, and subsequent lever action model orders increased, he simply stopped building Ballard rifles to concentrate on lever action sales. Both of John Marlin's sons wanted to expand the business, but by the time their father died they simply were also older men, and no longer pursued that plan. Instead they sold the business not long after his death, and Rockwell took over making firearms for WWI.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by AJMD429 »

The real hitch versus my othe “92’s” is the saddle ring; there seems no way to get the hammer screw out. I’ve had the Rossi ones I have apart, and although it is no fun, at least it is possible...!

What a dumb location for the saddle ring... :|
Last edited by AJMD429 on Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by earlmck »

Yeah, old JB -- he never used one big part when three little ones would do the same job.

And much thanks for the virus-fighting tips doc. The wife and I are taking our C, D, and zinc religiously.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by AJMD429 »

Yeah. I kind of like Marlins because they remind me of Uzi’s.....Just a few big strong parts. I think you could pretty much repair either one if you have a tool shed and an old junk lawn morwer or tractor to take chunks of metal off and file down to make a part or two.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by jnyork »

fordwannabe wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:48 pm Doc, sorry to hear about your friend. As to the 92! Insert a rod With a guide down the barrel from the muzzle, Then attach the brush in the action and brush as normal but from the muzzle end orrrrr get a bore snake.

Beat me to it.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I love that slip gun!

I followed Nate's video and I have never had trouble taking a 92 apart, but there is something to be said for the simplicity of the Marlin.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Grizz »

i took my win 92 apart and reassembled it with no problems. seemed clever and neato to me.....
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by marlinman93 »

Told a Winchester friend years ago that I could assemble my 1893 Marlin with my eyes closed, faster than he could assemble his 1894 Winchester with his eyes open. He didn't take up my challenge, but instead told me to show him I could even assemble the Marlin blindfolded! I laid all the parts on a towel and in about 3 minutes had it all together with a blindfold on my face. I did cheat a little by laying the parts out in order, so they were easier to locate.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by piller »

There is something to be said for simplicity.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Merle »

AJMD429 wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:30 pm ....Every time I have to do something simple to Winchester 92, even just clean the chamber, I realize why I like Marlins better.

C54AD301-8FE7-4C6A-A352-E8DB63264BD0.jpeg

All I wanted to do was brush out the chamber from the breech but of course unlike the Marlin, where you can easily just take out one screw, drop the lever and remove the bolt for breech access, you have to drive out to pin after removing that cover screw which in my case meant also removing the quick detach scope base. So far no big deal. Undo the lever to bolt screw and pin, and remove the bolts next. Then, you can’t slide the bolt out without removing the hammer, but the saddle ring prevents removal of the hammer screw. Then of course when the bolt is halfway back, the ejector pops out and pieces go everywhere. Maybe I can just remove the hammer strut and take enough tension off of it to pull the hammer back farther, but no that won’t work. So I slide the bolt forward and before all of the guts of the ejector fall out they are catching on the guide rails, so I remove those. I’m never able to get a direct shot at the chamber, so I clean it best I can.

Now I have to reassemble the mess, including getting the ejector back in place somehow, without being able to remove the bolt.


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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Scrumbag »

I have just recently dissassembled and reassembled a Browning Auto 5 for cerakoting the barrel and receiver. Speaking personally, I still find JMB's design inspirational.*

Best wishes,

Scrummy

(*Usually that's inspiring new and creative ways to swear, but it is inspiring, none the less)
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by marlinman93 »

I have a lot of respect for John Browning's designs, and his ability to crank out new designs as quickly as he did! An amazing mind!
But I'm as much or more of a fan of Louis L Hepburn, and his designs. Were it not for Hepburn's designs at both Remington and later Marlin, neither company would have prospered as they did. Remingtons never knew how to sell their products in the early years, or they'd not have been forced into bankruptcy in 1886. But it sure wan't because of Hepburn's design work!
When Remington went broke, and Hepburn was hired by John Marlin, he immediately went to work on new Marlin repeating rifle designs that when introduced took Marlin sales to a level John Marlin never dreamed he'd reach. The Hepburn designs starting with the 1889 model and going forward, were what gave Marlin a major step forward in their total sales.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

The 92 and big bro, the 86 can be difficult. The solid one piece receiver, no side plates or trigger plate does make it much like working on a ship in a bottle. :(
But, it is also, one of the reasons these two Wins are stronger actions than the Marlins.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by AJMD429 »

Scrumbag wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:40 pmSpeaking personally, I still find JMB's design inspirational.*
(*Usually that's inspiring new and creative ways to swear, but it is inspiring, none the less)
That must be why I find plumbing so inspirational... :lol:
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by CowboyTutt »

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:56 am The 92 and big bro, the 86 can be difficult. The solid one piece receiver, no side plates or trigger plate does make it much like working on a ship in a bottle. :(
But, it is also, one of the reasons these two Wins are stronger actions than the Marlins.
Thank you for weighing in here Nate aka Steve. The Browning '92 and '86 designs need to be precisely calibrated in their actions. I would agree that done right, the Winchester might be stronger but it has to be done right. -Tutt
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Scrumbag »

AJMD429 wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:28 pm
Scrumbag wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:40 pmSpeaking personally, I still find JMB's design inspirational.*
(*Usually that's inspiring new and creative ways to swear, but it is inspiring, none the less)
That must be why I find plumbing so inspirational... :lol:
Exactly my friend!
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by marlinman93 »

A lot of Marlins in the same calibers as Winchesters, and the same age too. And still in great shooting condition after over 100 years, and more! Just proves that both guns are strong enough for the calibers they've been chambered in.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

marlinman93 wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:49 am A lot of Marlins in the same calibers as Winchesters, and the same age too. And still in great shooting condition after over 100 years, and more! Just proves that both guns are strong enough for the calibers they've been chambered in.
That is true of the original calibers. But, you won't see Marlins in 454 Casull.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by piller »

Honestly, the men who came up with those designs were better at it than I could ever be. While Browning seemed to like complexity, the 1911 and the P-35 Hi-power are not complex at all. Browning's single shot designs were quite simple. I do prefer simplicity, but I am not capable of making my own design for a gun.
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by CowboyTutt »

That is true of the original calibers. But, you won't see Marlins in 454 Casull.
Amen Steve! Steve by the way is the only gunsmith other than McPherson who could make a Rossi Puma in 454 not want to split the wood and make it run slick as glass. There might have been some others but I never heard of them. -Tutt
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Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

CowboyTutt wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:35 pm
That is true of the original calibers. But, you won't see Marlins in 454 Casull.
Amen Steve! Steve by the way is the only gunsmith other than McPherson who could make a Rossi Puma in 454 not want to split the wood and make it run slick as glass. There might have been some others but I never heard of them. -Tutt
Let's just say, the actions are holding up just fine. Everything else is hanging on for dear life :lol:
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1894c

Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by 1894c »

AJMD429 wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:30 pm ....Every time I have to do something simple to Winchester 92, even just clean the chamber, I realize why I like Marlins better.
I totally and completely agree--sometime I think John Marlin was pretty good too. All I have are Marlins, simple, reliable, easy to clean and take apart... :)
Lastmohecken
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Posts: 1970
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Location: Arkansas

Re: No offense to John Browning, but....

Post by Lastmohecken »

I have Marlins but mostly Winchesters, all models pretty much. Personally, I think the disassembly for cleaning is over rated and basically a non issue. I have Winchesters over a 100 years old and several more that are 70 years old, and many of them (I seriously doubt) have ever been taken apart and they still work flawlessly. I know I have not taken any of them apart and I owned several of them for 30 plus years. Same thing for the Browning A5. I have looked at the parts blow up for the A5 and I don't think I would ever attempt it unless I absolutely had to. I have Belgium A5's and one old FN (not Browning) from the 1920's and I know it's been taken apart, but not by me and I have fired many many cases of shells through it.

Yes, I have cleaned the bore and had the barrels off of the A5's but I have never completely taken them apart. I just spray then down and blow them out and wipe them down.
I figure they will probably keep running for the rest of my life, at least with minimal issues, unless one should suffer parts breakage of some kind.

Bottom line, most people can run one of those Winchesters for a lifetime and never have to take the bolt out of it, really. Hell, I have practically done it!
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