Range report 44-40 with photos

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KirkD
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Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by KirkD »

I took my old Winchester Model 1892 saddle ring carbine 44-40 to the range yesterday. I wanted to try some R-P brass of which I only have five samples, and I wanted to try some free-standing, offhand shooting because the little carbine feels so good in my hands.

Results: The five R-P loads of 20 grains of 5744 under a soft cast Accurate Moulds GC soft cast bullet gave me a five-shot group of 1 & 3/4" group at 100 yards, resting on my shooting bag.

I then set up a target at 100 yards and took 10 shots in a free-standing, offhand position, shooting relatively quick to simulate shots taken while hunting (no resting elbow on the waist). Accuracy suffers, of course, but I still got all 10 shots on paper and 8 out of the 10 shots went into a 3 & 1/4" group. The top left shot was the first shot and a called flyer, as was the lowest shot. It seems to be a law of nature that there will always be at least one flyer. I can't believe how easy it is to shoot this little 106-year-old 44-40 carbine. It is such a pleasure. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this old beater is a keeper!

I need to adjust the tang sight a little to the left in windage to center it up a bit. That is my next project. Photos of the carbine, along with the two targets are below.
44-40 closer.jpg

Free standing 44-40.jpg
Free standing 44-40 actual.jpg
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Kirk, that is an exceptional offhand target at 100 yards. I wish I had a smidgen of your shooting skill. Well done! 8)
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Grizz »

great rifle, my favorite type of levergun. great shooting too. thanks for posting
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by claybob86 »

Fine rifle and excellent shooting! Thanks for the report. :)
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by piller »

Nice rifle. It seems to shoot well. Hope you get a chance to hunt with it next season.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by OldWin »

Nice!
The 92 has to be my favorite Winchester to shoot. Can't do it without smiling. 😁
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by GunnyMack »

Yup that is a keeper! Nice pics, good group- well done!
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Nath »

Great shooting buddy.
Was there a breeze right to left or do you need to drift it a touch?
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by gamekeeper »

Still shooting good groups after 106 years, that's what I call a well built gun in a great caliber. A keeper for sure congratulations Kirk. . . . :mrgreen:
Great photos too.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by KirkD »

Nath wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:18 am Great shooting buddy.
Was there a breeze right to left or do you need to drift it a touch?
N.
There was no cross breeze at all, so that five-shot group that was resting on my shooting bag tells me I need to shim the tang sight very slightly to the right to shift the POI about an inch and a half to the right. That is my next project. It doesn't take much of a shim to move the POI over by 3" at 100 yards, so it can be a bit time-consuming to do that final adjustment.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Old Savage »

Looks to me like you have two distinct groups offhand with vertical stringing in each. Still great offhand effort.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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Old Savage wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:20 am Looks to me like you have two distinct groups offhand with vertical stringing in each. Still great offhand effort.
I can see the two groups you mention. However, the top left hole was my first shot and a called flyer as was the lowest hole. If I eliminate the two called flyers, then the remaining holes cluster more or less into a round cluster on the target. I need more practice. I'm a little out of shooting shape right now due to the winter weather for the past several months.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Old Savage »

I see your point Kirk but I still see that as two. Something in hold or technique that you alternate between. I think the rested group indicates that. Certainly more shooting is necessary. Firing 12,000 plus rds. off a bench over ten years looking at each shot through the spotting scope revealed a lot about individual rifles and technique.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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Old Savage wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:03 pm I see your point Kirk but I still see that as two. Something in hold or technique that you alternate between. I think the rested group indicates that. Certainly more shooting is necessary. Firing 12,000 plus rds. off a bench over ten years looking at each shot through the spotting scope revealed a lot about individual rifles and technique.
Yes, I would like to figure out why there are two clusters in the five-shot group that as rested on my bag. I've dismantled the mag tube last night, as it was so full of crud that the mag spring was sticking. Re-assembly may introduce some slight changes, but I will aim to tighten the two barrel bands the same as they were. Then it's back to the range when warmer weather hits to adjust the tang sight and to experiment with slightly different loads.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by yooper2 »

Wonderful report and great shooting. May I ask which mold you are using from Accurate? Tom makes some great molds.


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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Old Savage »

Still, extraordinary for that type of shooting with that type rifle. A lot of possible variables even down to light off the bead.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Jay Bird »

Yea...those old Winchesters just continue to keep on shootin'.....and what gets me is that most of them were used and sometimes abused and they keep on shooting good and feed well........with the exception of Miroko, you can't say that with any of NEW foreign junk thats been made in the last 40 years on modern CNC machinery and modern steels unless you have it worked over by a 'smith......sometimes you get lucky and get a good one............

Kirk.....that windage issue is so close I'd leave it alone. Offset sunshine or tired eyes will throw it off that much.......but if you decide about .010 would do it...no more.....a .015 business card with 3/16" cut off of it and under the left side of the base screwed down tight will compress it to about .008-.010 and should do it. As it is, it's still minute of coyote.----6
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by M. M. Wright »

Great photos man! Good shootin' too. My favorite cartridge but I no longer have a 92 in 44-40. My only 92 is a 32-20 octagon barreled rifle which I am quite fond of. I still have 4 73s though. Wondering how hot your load is. Can I use it in a 73 I wonder? I put a new set of Lee Shaver links in my SRC and it feels so much tighter and smoother I think I can live without the new Miroku.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by hightime »

I know you guys forgot about me, I’ve been gone a long time.
Just signed on and read this post. I have to say Kirk’s loads with the 44-40 have made this my favorite cal. Thanks Kirk!
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by AJMD429 »

What vintage manufacture is the gun...?

I always like to see a machine a century or so old that symtill works fine... 8)
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by KirkD »

yooper2: The mould number is 431200B ... a 3-cavity brass mould. I ordered it to give .431" bullets so that I could shoot them in larger bores I've found in original Model 1873's, but size them down to .429 for this carbine.

Old Savage: Yes, it could be light off the top of the front sight. Some shots I was a little less focussed so that could be a possibility.

Sixgun Sr: I think you are right in your estimates for a shim. I was playing around with the calipers and .010 might do it. An inch and a half off bothers me, although now that I know that I can compensate. Next time I could simply compensate by aiming a couple inches to the right. Trouble is, if I don't shoot a particular gun for a while I get a little hazy on what the compensation might be for a particular old levergun, so I prefer to site them all in to within less than 1" of center.

AJMD429: The polishing room records indicate it was serialized in 1913.

M. M. Wright: In a rifle version of an original 1892, I chronographed this load at 1,325 fps average velocity, so I'd have no hesitation in using it in an original '73 if it were mine.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Jay Bird »

M. M. Wright wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:47 pm Great photos man! Good shootin' too. My favorite cartridge but I no longer have a 92 in 44-40. My only 92 is a 32-20 octagon barreled rifle which I am quite fond of. I still have 4 73s though. Wondering how hot your load is. Can I use it in a 73 I wonder? I put a new set of Lee Shaver links in my SRC and it feels so much tighter and smoother I think I can live without the new Miroku.

MM.....I've shot the 44-40 since '73 to the tune of probably 20-30,000 or more rounds out of every conceivable gun ever made for that cartridge. Just like with .22 Rimfires most all cast bullet guns are most accurate at "match velocity" which is just below the speed of sound....most ..22 match ammo is around 1080.

As you know, the most important criteria to accuracy is the bullet fit and diameter and once you get that figured out, put 7 grains of 231 behind it for right at 1050-1100 depending on the rifle. That's been my long time Silhouette load for 40-100 meter shooting in 1873's, 1892's, 1894 Marlins and Colt Lightnings. It also gets used in single action Colts.......easy and cheap to load and accurate, ---6
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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I have a 26" 1894-1994 Win 94, half octagon/half round. Shooting it one bright sunny day with a glint off the bead I got a vertical strung group with 3 of about a half inch in the middle with one above and one below. Looking at the sights after the group I became convinced the variance was due to how I saw that glint. This was rested on a bench at 100 yds.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Jay Bird »

Old Savage wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:46 pm I have a 26" 1894-1994 Win 94, half octagon/half round. Shooting it one bright sunny day with a glint off the bead I got a vertical strung group with 3 of about a half inch in the middle with one above and one below. Looking at the sights after the group I became convinced the variance was due to how I saw that glint. This was rested on a bench at 100 yds.
Yep...it'll do it....being a life long metallic sight shooter the sun plays havoc in how your brain perceives the location of the front sight...that's why target shooters use covered front sights...in addition to keeping your sight somewhat safe from damage, it helps with the sun.

On my competition guns, I'll sand the post then add flat black paint.......the older you get the more you need such "improvements".

The worst is when the sun in at a low horizon off to the side....can easily make a 4" difference at 100 yards from morning to night.---6
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by KirkD »

I agree re. problems with the light on the front sight. That always seems to be the #1 challenge for me, including the day I shot the targets in the OP.
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cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Griff »

Good report and analysis.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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And Six, that is about the variance I got top to bottom with a half inch three shot group in the middle.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Jay Bird »

Old Savage wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:54 pm And Six, that is about the variance I got top to bottom with a half inch three shot group in the middle.
I hear ya Fred....my guess is the sun was directly at "high noon" while you were shooting..

Experienced shooters prefer a straight post with no bead such as what the military uses. I ALWAYS have Birchwood Casey sight black in my range box....it's spray on and I'll just spray the whole front end of the barrel, barrel and sight.....wipes right off after the match or range session.

There's an old saying amongst shooters..."lights up, sights up" and lights down, sights down". ----6
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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Once again Six right on, Early afternoon, sun on the front sight.

By comparison, 7.65x53 Mauser, same conditions, 5x.91" @ 100 yds

For frame of reference, .223 heavy barrel Model 700, 24x scope ... 5x .2" @ 100.yd., same range.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by M. M. Wright »

I'm so old I remember when I was 15 and using a candle to black the front sight of my '58 Remington for target work.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Rube Burrows »

I love the 92s.

They may not have the love affair of some of the other rifles like the 73 who won the west or the 66 which stands out for its color. The 92 is just the perfect rifle for in the saddle, on the ranch, in the truck etc. Just hard to beat a good shooting 92.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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Very nice Kirk. If we were still doing the monthly off-hand competition deal you'd be real tough to beat with that baby!
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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Sixgun Sr wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:31 pmOn my competition guns, I'll sand the post then add flat black paint.......the older you get the more you need such "improvements".

The worst is when the sun in at a low horizon off to the side....can easily make a 4" difference at 100 yards from morning to night.---6
By gum! This old dog just learned a new trick by reading this thread. Light off my front blade has always been my #1 problem for accurate shooting. It never occurred to me to black my front sight tip. Since all my old Winchesters are originals and unmessed with, I hate to do any sanding, but blacking will do no harm. I wouldn't be surprised if I could tighten that 5-shot, 1 & 3/4" group at 100 yards if I black my front sight. I need to get some of that stuff.

On a different topic, during my 10 shot freehand shooting, the last five or six rounds weren't coming out of the mag tube, or only partly coming out. I thought the old mag spring had packed it in, so I took out the spring only to find out that is was in nice shape, but I could feel some resistance as I pulled it out. I then removed the mag tube and literally had to use a doweling to shove the tube follower down the tube and out the muzzle end of it, and it wasn't easy. The crud in there was unbelievable!! As I mentioned before, this carbine looks like it spent a lot of time outdoors, but the bore is beautiful and the action slick, so I figured it was a trappers gun (from northern British Columbian) and he'd kept that bore well maintained. The mag tube, however, is another story. I've never seen an old Winchester with so much crud in there! I'm sure the old trapper never once cleaned out his mag tube and he must have been in an awful rush to load up the tube from time to time, shoving all sorts of junk in there at the same time. I've got the tube just about all cleaned out now, and the spring scrubbed clean from end to end.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Jay Bird »

KirkD wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:43 pm I agree re. problems with the light on the front sight. That always seems to be the #1 challenge for me, including the day I shot the targets in the OP.

Kirk.....you and I have one thing in common.......we like nice Winchesters & Colts and no junk....the rarer the better.......so........................when shooting that nice Winchester with sights that are worth more than any rifle Italy ever put out.. :D ...., we take care not to damage anything........

At matches I don't worry about darkening the sights on the finest 1886 Winchester I have......this Birchwood Casey Sight Black is sprayed on liberally .....hitting the sight and the front end of the barrel........I don't want NO glare and I don't mask anything.......after the match I'll just wipe it off... ......sometimes I'll use a toothbrush with a mild cleaner to get into the nooks and crannies.

The pen version is paint and is better suited for hunting as it holds better and even that comes off fairly easy. ----6

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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by OldWin »

I black my sights too. I use the redneck poor folk version though.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by GunnyMack »

If you are going to black your sights why not do it right and use a smoke lamp! That's the English way, or at least what I was told in gummsmiff skool by Leonard Bull, Westly Richards trained Master smith.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Bryan Austin »

Most Excellent!!!

Have you been able to chrono that load yet?
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Griff »

GunnyMack wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:49 amIf you are going to black your sights why not do it right and use a smoke lamp! That's the English way, or at least what I was told in gummsmiff skool by Leonard Bull, Westly Richards trained Master smith.
Yep, something as simple as wooden match or old Zippo lighter, just hold so the sight is in the smoke, not the flame.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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Bryan Austin wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:17 pm Most Excellent!!!

Have you been able to chrono that load yet?
Yes. The average velocity out of a Model 1892 rifle was 1,325 fps. It may be slightly slower in a carbine due to the shorter barrel, but not much.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Bryan Austin »

KirkD wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:01 pm
Bryan Austin wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:17 pm Most Excellent!!!

Have you been able to chrono that load yet?
Yes. The average velocity out of a Model 1892 rifle was 1,325 fps. It may be slightly slower in a carbine due to the shorter barrel, but not much.
That is a great report! Thanks!!
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by piller »

That should be plenty for deer and similar sized game. Probably would do just fine on black bears, but I have no experience with them.
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

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piller wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:49 am That should be plenty for deer and similar sized game. Probably would do just fine on black bears, but I have no experience with them.
It will pass right through, side to side, a 200-pound Whitetail deer, lung area.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by OldWin »

KirkD wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:27 pm
piller wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:49 am That should be plenty for deer and similar sized game. Probably would do just fine on black bears, but I have no experience with them.
It will pass right through, side to side, a 200-pound Whitetail deer, lung area.
Sure will. I can attest. The ability of this old cartridge is really impressive when you think about it.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Pitchy
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Re: Range report 44-40 with photos

Post by Pitchy »

Great report Kirk , very cool rifle. 8)
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