useful 380 ACP gel tests

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Grizz »

I first saw the XTP bullet from the 50 Beo/500 Mag point of view. Here are some 380 comparisons, I might switch to the XTP if I can shoot it as straight as my present Federal flat-nose load.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F5rPTHcrmg

As a reference, my 380 Federal carry load penetrates to the same place as my 9mm Gold Dot carry rounds....

I need a truckload of water jugs when I take the 50 out, so I can get comps with my 45/70/525g and 44/405g loads.
harry
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:33 pm
Location: West central Montana

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by harry »

Trump 2024

All responses have been cleared by the law firm of "Elmer and Fudd."
User avatar
Tycer
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7690
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Tycer »

https://youtu.be/GNtPHYwcDts

The rounds with XTPs performed best.
When I go to Charleston I swing by Precision One and buy a bag of seconds and replenish my stock of edc rounds.
Kind regards,
Tycer
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saf.org - https://peakprosperity.com/ - http://www.guntalk.com
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Grizz »

Harry, Thanks !
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Grizz »

@ Tycer

thanks for the link . . . it makes me wonder what a hard lead bullet with grooves ground or cast into it would do . . . just for the fun of comparisons . . . I'm still a fan of solids, but I find the XTP performance, from 380 to 50, to be impressive . . . maybe breaking down my dislike of hollowpoints . . .
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Blaine »

This is more realistic than water jugs vis-a-vis flesh penetration....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkscBbMGp5k

If this is accurate, then he's saying .380 over penetrates.... :shock:
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by JimT »

"OVER PENETRATION" = A mythical concept that has no correlation in the real world.
User avatar
TedH
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8248
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:19 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by TedH »

Grizz wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:53 pm @ Tycer

thanks for the link . . . it makes me wonder what a hard lead bullet with grooves ground or cast into it would do . . . just for the fun of comparisons . . . I'm still a fan of solids, but I find the XTP performance, from 380 to 50, to be impressive . . . maybe breaking down my dislike of hollowpoints . . .
Here's some tests I did with cast 380 bullets a while back.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56761&hilit=380#p665307
NRA Life Member
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Blaine »

JimT wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:17 pm "OVER PENETRATION" = A mythical concept that has no correlation in the real world.
:lol: :lol: Lucy, you gots some 'splainin' to do....
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by JimT »

Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:10 am
JimT wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:17 pm "OVER PENETRATION" = A mythical concept that has no correlation in the real world.
:lol: :lol: Lucy, you gots some 'splainin' to do....
A famous African hunter once wrote:
Penetration is what counts. A bullet that cannot reach the vitals it is aimed at, no matter what the intervening tissue and bone, not only does not kill quickly and reliably but vastly compounds the element of danger to the hunter.
-Karamojo Bell-

We used solids on dangerous game and try to get as much penetration as is physically possible .. but worry about over-penetration on dangerous humans?
That is ridiculous.
I have met many more dangerous humans than I ever have dangerous animals.

Kinetic energy does not wound.
Temporary cavity does not wound.
The bullet must pass through the large, blood-bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding.

I don't care how much jello a bullet can penetrate. What does that bullet do on something that is alive. Breathing. Blood pumping through its veins. That is where you find out if something works or not. So what if the bullet went through 14" of jello? What will it do when it has to go through several inches of heavy clothing, 4" of fat and then muscle and bone on an angry violent opponent that weighs close to 300 pounds?

No one who was ever in a gun fight lost his life because his bullet over-penetrated. More than a few lost their lives because their bullet did not penetrate enough.

The fears about over-penetration were invented by lawyers to give Police Administrators more to worry about. The majority of bullets fired during close range interpersonal confrontations miss their intended target completely. Those bullets are much more of a threat to innocent bystanders than bullets that over-penetrate.

Rarely does one have the option of choosing when and where to shoot in a self-defense situation. If it is truly a life or death situation requiring the use of deadly force, the blame for innocents being harmed is laid upon the person who committed a crime that resulted in the use of force. (Check your local use of deadly force statutes.) No one wants to hit an innocent by-stander, but the way to reduce that possibility is training to shoot in all types of situations, not by reducing the effectiveness of your tool.
User avatar
mikld
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2336
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:46 pm
Location: So. Orygun!

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by mikld »

I'm wondering what others think about Paul Harrell's "meat target" (t-shirt material followed by pork ears, pork ribs, oranges or watermelon, pork ribs, t-shirt and several layers of fleece blankets)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWmg0wB5xsA 50 seconds into the videro...
Mike
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit...
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Blaine »

JimT wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:42 am
Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:10 am
JimT wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:17 pm "OVER PENETRATION" = A mythical concept that has no correlation in the real world.
:lol: :lol: Lucy, you gots some 'splainin' to do....
A famous African hunter once wrote:
Penetration is what counts. A bullet that cannot reach the vitals it is aimed at, no matter what the intervening tissue and bone, not only does not kill quickly and reliably but vastly compounds the element of danger to the hunter.
-Karamojo Bell-

We used solids on dangerous game and try to get as much penetration as is physically possible .. but worry about over-penetration on dangerous humans?
That is ridiculous.
I have met many more dangerous humans than I ever have dangerous animals.

Kinetic energy does not wound.
Temporary cavity does not wound.
The bullet must pass through the large, blood-bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding.

I don't care how much jello a bullet can penetrate. What does that bullet do on something that is alive. Breathing. Blood pumping through its veins. That is where you find out if something works or not. So what if the bullet went through 14" of jello? What will it do when it has to go through several inches of heavy clothing, 4" of fat and then muscle and bone on an angry violent opponent that weighs close to 300 pounds?

No one who was ever in a gun fight lost his life because his bullet over-penetrated. More than a few lost their lives because their bullet did not penetrate enough.

The fears about over-penetration were invented by lawyers to give Police Administrators more to worry about. The majority of bullets fired during close range interpersonal confrontations miss their intended target completely. Those bullets are much more of a threat to innocent bystanders than bullets that over-penetrate.

Rarely does one have the option of choosing when and where to shoot in a self-defense situation. If it is truly a life or death situation requiring the use of deadly force, the blame for innocents being harmed is laid upon the person who committed a crime that resulted in the use of force. (Check your local use of deadly force statutes.) No one wants to hit an innocent by-stander, but the way to reduce that possibility is training to shoot in all types of situations, not by reducing the effectiveness of your tool.
You are absolutely correct insofar as large, dangerous game, and bullets that are big/heavy-for-calibre are concerned.
But, we're talking about 380s, <100gr slugs, and bad guys. Would it not be better if all of that puny 200-ish foot pounds of KE be expended on the target?
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by JimT »

Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:15 pm You are absolutely correct insofar as large, dangerous game, and bullets that are big/heavy-for-calibre are concerned.
But, we're talking about 380s, <100gr slugs, and bad guys. Would it not be better if all of that puny 200-ish foot pounds of KE be expended on the target?
The principle is the same no matter the target.
Kinetic energy is only a paper figure.
The idea of "expending all the bullet's energy" on or in the target is not real.
I know you know this but ..
if the 380 had 200 ft. lbs. of energy it would be able to move 200 pounds 1 foot.
Reality is that many times people shot with rifles have thousands of ft. lbs. of energy do not realize they have been shot at first.
Kinetic energy does not wound or kill.
Wounds are created when vital tissue is destroyed. Ripped .. torn .. sliced .. blood vessels are broken.
(leaving out wounds to the central nervous system here for brevity .. we all know those are instant stoppers but ...)
To stop an attack by a bad guy or a large dog or a wild hog, the bullet has to destroy, crush, tear vital areas .. many that are 'way inside the body.
If I was carrying a 380 I would have it loaded with a flat-nose solid running as fast as is safe. I want that bullet to go 'way deep .. exit if possible.
And I would do my best to learn to place the shots quickly and effectively.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Blaine »

Wounds are created when vital tissue is destroyed. Ripped .. torn .. sliced .. blood vessels are broken.
Like if a bullet suddenly got half again as large in diameter and had ripping, tearing, slicing razor sharp edges on them?
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Grizz »

I totally agree about the expending energy thing, so staying inside means all the energy was killing inside. Not even. I say the idea is voided by arrows going clear thru game. I consider a hunting load that cannot make two holes is a failure. I had a very accurate 7mm mag and put a hunting type bullet into the side of a buck, good shot, deer down. I found the bullet "in the offside, under the hide." I got rid of that rifle, because in Alaska 7mm is known to not be a great bear stopper.

If I have to shoot a human I theorize that the adams apple is the place for the first round, second in the vicinity of the nose cartilage which should drill the medula. I think.. I pray I never find out, but I am trained from early days to aim small. And misses aren't rewarded....

There are a couple of examples I've read about of people killed with LCPs. One in seattle where the guy wouldn't give up his cell phone. Bad guy drilled him thru the sternum, broke his back and an instant kill. with a .380. Another one someone ran down a trespasser and put 4 or 5 380 rounds in center mass. The guy bled out, the coroner said any one of the shots was fatal. The shooter went to jail.

Not trying to prove anything about 380s. I carry one because it's what I can always have all the time. If I go where there are large cats or small bears or to Tacoma or the airport I add somethings to the inventory.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Blaine »

Grizz, you'll have to make up your mind.... You were very excited about the XTPs yesterday. Great expansion, and they would stay in a human body in a 380 application.
I upgraded to a 9mm EDC not too long ago. I'll def be using +P JHPs and get the same penetration as if I were using my .380 FMJs....
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by JimT »

Blaine wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Wounds are created when vital tissue is destroyed. Ripped .. torn .. sliced .. blood vessels are broken.
Like if a bullet suddenly got half again as large in diameter and had ripping, tearing, slicing razor sharp edges on them?
Sure .. IF it had enough mass to retain its velocity. The downside of hollowpoints is that when they open it acts like a parachute. Extra drag .. sudden slowing down. If they don't have much mass then they cannot penetrate very far.
You do not need expansion for the bullet to be effective. You do need bullet placement. And if you are shooting at a target that is quartering away from you and the shot goes through the arm first, it may not make it into the body to an effective depth.
I saw a shot go through a guy's arm .. which was raised, holding an axe .. before it hit him in the chest. It did nothing more than create a flesh wound in the chest. .357 Magnum 110 gr. JHP.
Conflicts are not static. There is a lot movement. Difficult angles are presented. These can make it hard for a marginal load to penetrate to the needed area. That's why I will not rely on bullet expansion. When I carry a .22 rimfire I prefer solids. I am not against smaller calibers. I just want them to work.
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by JimT »

Grizz wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:55 pm Not trying to prove anything about 380s. I carry one because it's what I can always have all the time. If I go where there are large cats or small bears or to Tacoma or the airport I add somethings to the inventory.
I am not against the 380. Whatever a person carries, they should know it, master it, and be confident in it. My "thing" is more about the thinking that we need expansion to stop the "target". I shot too many animals .. from rabbits on up including cows, burros, and fairly large pigs with hardcast bullets. No expansion there. But if you put it in the right place the job is done.
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Blaine »

JimT wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:34 pm
Grizz wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:55 pm Not trying to prove anything about 380s. I carry one because it's what I can always have all the time. If I go where there are large cats or small bears or to Tacoma or the airport I add somethings to the inventory.
I am not against the 380. Whatever a person carries, they should know it, master it, and be confident in it. My "thing" is more about the thinking that we need expansion to stop the "target". I shot too many animals .. from rabbits on up including cows, burros, and fairly large pigs with hardcast bullets. No expansion there. But if you put it in the right place the job is done.
But if you put it in the right place the job is done.
Yep....
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: useful 380 ACP gel tests

Post by Grizz »

Blaine, I made up my mind to contrast and compare those loads. Yup :lol:
Post Reply