5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

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wm
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5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by wm »

I'm further pursuing subjects that I have had little knowledge or interaction with. In this case 5 shot top break revolvers (H&R, S&W, Iver Johnson, Meridian, etc. and I will include the British Webley and Enfields too).

I know some folks collect them and other folks give them little attention but I'm thinking someone must have written a book or an in depth article about them. Anyone able to point me in a direction or make a suggestion for a curious mind to pursue?

Wm
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by gamekeeper »

Old No7 has a good knowledge of top break revolvers, I'm sure he could offer some interesting information. I too have an interest in these guns but unfortunately living in the UK my government won't allow me to own any.. :roll:
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by jeepnik »

My knowledge of top breaks is limited to H&R 999's and S&W top breaks. Being a southpaw they work well for me. My grail gun is a Webley-Fosbery. If I ever win a lottery I might have enough to purchase one.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by piller »

jeepnik wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:01 pm My knowledge of top breaks is limited to H&R 999's and S&W top breaks. Being a southpaw they work well for me. My grail gun is a Webley-Fosbery. If I ever win a lottery I might have enough to purchase one.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by AJMD429 »

gamekeeper wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:20 pmI too have an interest in these guns but unfortunately living in the UK my government won't allow me to own any.. :roll:
Thank God - if people like you were allowed to own such things, there would be complete chaos and mayhem....!
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by 765x53 »

GB has an example of H&Rs last center-fire top break from the late 60s or early 70s. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/847236846
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by gamekeeper »

AJMD429 wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:50 pm
gamekeeper wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:20 pmI too have an interest in these guns but unfortunately living in the UK my government won't allow me to own any.. :roll:
Thank God - if people like you were allowed to own such things, there would be complete chaos and mayhem....!
Doc, you know me so well . . . . :lol:
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by Old No7 »

gamekeeper wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:20 pm Old No7 has a good knowledge of top break revolvers, I'm sure he could offer some interesting information.
Thanks for the nod John -- it's probably this image you're remembering... :wink:
( Click image to enlarge )
H&R Collection 11-2017.jpg
Those are all H&R top-breaks, although a few have been sold, and I'll sell off a few more soon too. I've decided to pare it down a little more, to fund my current foray into German guns.

wm wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:05 pm I'm further pursuing subjects that I have had little knowledge or interaction with. In this case 5 shot top break revolvers (H&R, S&W, Iver Johnson, Meridian, etc. and I will include the British Webley and Enfields too).

I know some folks collect them and other folks give them little attention but I'm thinking someone must have written a book or an in depth article about them. Anyone able to point me in a direction or make a suggestion for a curious mind to pursue?
There's more than 5 shots across that spectrum, you could get 5, 6, 7 or 9 (maybe an 8-shot from Iver Johnson too).

There's also a wide spectrum in quality within and across those makers too. For instance, the 999 Sportsman by H&R is considered the top of their line (no longer made) but they're not Colts or S&Ws for sure. You can still get a good one though, and if you stumble onto a great 999 Sportsman for a decent price -- grab it. Just remember to tighten the two small screws that secure the rear blade often. (I crimped both screws in a vise, which mangled the threads a little; they turn in a little tight -- but they no longer back out.) The older/original H&R Auto Ejecting series didn't have a locking bolt on the cylinders, and only pressure on the hand kept the cylinder in time. Some of the metallurgy on the older H&Rs wasn't terrific and the working edges of most action parts are small, so it's easy for well-used guns to show some wear. There is a book out about H&R Firearms by the late William Goforth, but you can also check on ebay or Google for magazine articles; I've gotten a few that way, but there's not a lot of written materials out there, you really need to search for it.

I've had a couple of nice Smith & Wesson top-breaks that I got for a steal cause no one else wanted them, but then later sold them to S&W collectors for a profit to help fund more H&Rs. I've never gotten into the Iver Johnsons or Meridians so I can't comment on quality directly, but my impression is the best of the H&R was better than the best of those others. I don't know of any books on those (I/J or M). The S&Ws are usually top quality, and they're written about in any S&W history book, but as a footnote to the future swing-out cylinder models. Their top-breaks are somewhat more collectible too, which can drive the prices of those up especially with the early big bore S&W Americans, the Model 3s or the Schofield cavalry model. I have a copy/replica of a Schofield (has the top thumb latch) made by Uberti in .38 Spcl which is a blast to shoot -- and quick to reload.
( Click image to enlarge )
Schofield & Bowie (Small).jpg

The Enfield by all written accounts was a war-time blatant copy (rip off, per Webley) of the Webley design, but the necessities of war made it happen and if I recall, Webley didn't get much if any royalties from that debacle. (Maybe Gamekeeper, John, can chime in on this...) I do think the Webley's are better made than the Enfields, based on all that I have ever handled, especially if you can get a nice, little-used pre-war model without the not-so-great "WAR FINISH" on it. Mine has a decent blued finish, but has an added hammer-block safety, courtesy of the Singapore Police Force (as it has an SPF stamp on it). Webley's from Montreal or Toronto Police are found too, but those get bid up by Canadian collectors.
( Click image to enlarge )
Webley Mk IV 01.jpg

The very best advice I can offer -- regardless of the maker -- is to ALWAYS lift the top latch when closing the gun (with the possible exception of a Webley, as they're pretty stout and have generous geometries on most action parts). Most other top-breaks will eventually show some wear at the frame to barrel assembly lock-up if they are slammed open and then slammed shut repeatedly, and once they're a little loose, there's no easy fix for that.

Hope this helps.

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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by Jay Bird »

With the exception of Smith & Wesson, the later H&R's, of course Webleys, and a small percentage of Iver Johnson's, the rest are worthless junk. I'd go as far to say any top break made before WW1 with the exception of Smith, some H&R's, and Webley are as worthless as Adam Schiff is as a human being.

My buddy keeps 3 or 4 five gallon buckets of these junk revolvers in the back room for when we go to gun buy back programs. Two summers ago we turned in 22 of them for $4,400 worth of supermarket gift cards. That was a big hit as we usually only get a hundred for handguns.----4
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

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Sixgun Sr wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:20 pm With the exception of Smith & Wesson, the later H&R's, of course Webleys, and a small percentage of Iver Johnson's, the rest are worthless junk.
I'd pretty much agree with you on that Six; although the early single-action-only "999" from H&R (the Model 199) and their small Premier series (which do have locking bolts on the cylinder) are nice, if found in very good condition.

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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I have had some of the Webleys but they were sixshooters, not fives.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by gamekeeper »

Webley sued the UK government for £2250 for design work used on the Enfield revolver but in the end only got £1250 for their trouble.
I recently had the chance to shoot a Enfield revolver with a military .22 conversation, my local gun shop is licensed to buy and sell illegal firearms, mainly for deactivating :twisted: it had a quite a nice double action only trigger pull, I was surprised how light it felt, it was reasonably accurate too.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by Jay Bird »

Old No7 wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:48 am
I'd pretty much agree with you on that Six; although the early single-action-only "999" from H&R (the Model 199) and their small Premier series (which do have locking bolts on the cylinder) are nice, if found in very good condition.
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Ole number 7,,,,...you and I come from a different era....when I say "later" it usually means after WW1....the 999 is an excellent revolver, especially for the money. The guns in your "wheel" are dependable meat and potatoes guns. What I'm talking about is the junk produced in the 1880-1920 period....like Red jackets, Blue jackets, most Iver Johnsons (with the owl head grips) . These guns were known as "suicide specials" ..you might get a box of ammo out of them before breaking....usually chambered in 32 rf of s/w short.

Yes, I actually have this hanging in my living room. :D it's an original from the 1890 period and would be worth mega bucks if it said "Colt" instead of "Blue Jacket". :D j-u-n-k---6

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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

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Sixgun Sr wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:02 am What I'm talking about is the junk produced in the 1880-1920 period....like Red jackets, Blue jackets, most Iver Johnsons (with the owl head grips) . These guns were known as "suicide specials" ..you might get a box of ammo out of them before breaking....
Agreed!

I think the woodsman in this old H&R Ad has a BIG Grizzly following him and he's wondering how his little .32 Short will handle the situation... :wink:

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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by wm »

Thanks for the information. Still in the learning stage before I buy one. I kick myself for passing up a 38 spl Uberti Schofield years ago.

I've been trying to read up on the S&W first because I figured they were the best quality.

There is a interesting YouTube video series by a guy restoring a Iver Johnson 32 that I just started watching at lunch time at work.

What I would really like to find is an old British RIC/Webley MKVI shaved to accept 45 ACP with clips. That would be almost useful! :lol:

But darn if those sights on those old revolvers and my eyes don't represent a hurdle to over come. I shoot better with my glasses off then on now!

Wm

P.S. A look at the Goforth book …… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxrZo7jmYIQ
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by barbarossa »

Speaking of top break revolvers has anyone tried out one of theses umarex pellet guns ,I ve read a lot of good reviews on them.I ve been told by my wife that there might be a chance that Santa might be bringing me one

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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

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barbarossa wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:57 pm Speaking of top break revolvers has anyone tried out one of theses umarex pellet guns ,I ve read a lot of good reviews on them.I ve been told by my wife that there might be a chance that Santa might be bringing me one

Image
I have not shot one but my local gun shop had one in, it looked pretty good. . . . 8)
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

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I am disappointed in you folks. I made a reference to Sam Spade, and no one caught it. I sentence you all to watch "The Maltese Falcon". Sam Spade identified a Webley Fosberry revolver in that classic movie.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by 2ndovc »

barbarossa wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:57 pm Speaking of top break revolvers has anyone tried out one of theses umarex pellet guns ,I ve read a lot of good reviews on them.I ve been told by my wife that there might be a chance that Santa might be bringing me one

Image

Just got a Umarex Lugar. Size and weight are just like my WWII pistol. Very cool, I'll have a backyard range report this weekend!
https://www.amazon.com/Umarex-Legends-L ... B07KMJ9W7J

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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Piller, a friend thought the reference to the "automatic revolver" in "The Maltese Falcon" was a continuity error until I introduced him online to the Webley-Fosbery. "Well I'll be! ..."
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by Malamute »

Ive long been interested in the S&W spur trigger top break 38s from the 1870s and 80s I believe. They can still be found in decent shooter grade guns for not too crazy prices if your patient. They arent in my budget, but Im hoping one day I can spring for one, I think it would be a ton of fun to shoot and maybe hunt small game with.

Regarding Webleys, Patrick Kelley did a nice "out of the box to the match" video of one in 45 cal. He did pretty good with it, (he was a pretty fair hand at various pistol shooting disciplines in the past) and he had a lot of fun shooting it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQq80s8Z8Q
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by Stevie »

I've always wondered why the top-break revolver has not been more popular in modern times.....easy and fast to reload.

I own a big Webely .455 converted to .45acp(lite) and a Enfield No.2 .38 revolver and these are superb six-shooters!

I have an old S&W fourth model .32 double action top-break that I recently repaired so it would work. It's amazing how accurate a little bitty five shot .32 short can be.

The 'Blue Jacket' poster above is interesting....not a top-break revolver but I own an ancient Blue Jacket No.1 seven shot .22 short.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by M. M. Wright »

Bought my first top break in the 2nd grade from a fellow student. Gave him a ruler, an eraser and a nickel for it. Forehand and Wadsworth 38 five shooter. It was still around here up until the last couple of years. I buy, sell and trade them a lot. We SASS shooters have a side match for "pocket pistol" that is basically a cylinder dump at across the card table distance and you need to be well under 2 seconds with all shots on target to be in contention for a win. Back in the "old days" everyone knew to line the cylinder up so the firing pin rests between the cartridge rims as the gun is closed to keep it off the primer. Yeah some pistols have a hammer block but close it that way just because. The Smiths are by far the best and that's what I use. 32s are more competitive because of the lesser recoil but I like the 38 S&W and load it with black powder. It's a hoot! I don't even feel undergunned when I drop the little Smith in my pocket for concealed carry.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by gamekeeper »

I have noticed that in a lot of old black & white movies, small American top break revolvers are used, I guess that's where my interest comes from.
Historically those inexpensive little top breaks must have provided a lot of people all over the world with concealable protection.
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They certainly were better than having nothing.
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

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gamekeeper wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:35 am I have noticed that in a lot of old black & white movies, small American top break revolvers are used, I guess that's where my interest comes from.
Historically those inexpensive little top breaks must have provided a lot of people all over the world with concealable protection.
Old H&R Ads from my collection...

Click on any image to enlarge.
H&R Auto Ejecting Ad 01.jpg

H&R Revolver Ad 01.jpg

H&R Revolver Ad 02.jpg

H&R Top-break Ad 01.jpg

H&R Hammerless Ad 05.jpg

H&R Hammerless Ad 08.jpg
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

Post by gamekeeper »

Old No7 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:18 am
gamekeeper wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:35 am I have noticed that in a lot of old black & white movies, small American top break revolvers are used, I guess that's where my interest comes from.
Historically those inexpensive little top breaks must have provided a lot of people all over the world with concealable protection.
Old H&R Ads from my collection...

Click on any image to enlarge.

H&R Auto Ejecting Ad 01.jpg



H&R Revolver Ad 01.jpg



H&R Revolver Ad 02.jpg



H&R Top-break Ad 01.jpg



H&R Hammerless Ad 05.jpg



H&R Hammerless Ad 08.jpg

Old No7
Yup, affordable and reliable I guess that's what most ordinary folks wanted, in fact, that's all I look for and want nowadays. . . . :wink:
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Re: 5 shot top break revolvers ...... suggetions sought for further information

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Affordable and reliable is never a bad thing.
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