Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

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HawkCreek
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Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#1 Post by HawkCreek » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:45 pm

Anybody have one? I realize recoil isn't mild but my recent trip to Montana got me thinking. The 1895 Saddle Ring "Carbine" I was carrying on my saddle is every bit as long and likely heavier than a bolt gun with scope. The 94 would be smaller and lighter but the .450 would pack a wallop so I'm thinking of picking one of these up and having it cut down to Trapper length. I realize I'd lose some ballistics and gain some recoil but what a handy carbine for bear country!

Anybody have any experience? Thoughts?

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#2 Post by Pete44ru » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:21 pm

.

I had a Winchester Timber in .450 Marlin when it was first introduced (2004), but was disappointed with it in two ways.

* While the chambering seemed OK, I felt any of the real .45's I had (.45-70's, i.e.) were a lot more flexible in their available loadings.

*Both the .450 Timber, and the .444 Timber Carbine I had before it (1999), weren't as accurate as other type actions were.

FWIW, I personally feel that those cartridges are far better off chambered in an action better suited to their power than a Model 94 - like a Winchester 86 or a Marlin 336/1895 (I had both in .45-70 + a Marlin .444).

YMMV...…….

The best power in a lighter/scoped Winchester was IME a .356 Winchester BB94AE - which was effective for me out to (and occasionally past) 250yds on game.

That's my $0.02 - worth every penny you paid for it. ;)

.
IF IN THESE TYMES OF JEOPARDY,
MORTAL PERIL INVADES THY THOUGHT,
TAKE UP THIS TRVSTY PIECE,
TRVST IN THY GOD, AND FEAR THEE NAUGHT.

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#3 Post by HawkCreek » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:15 pm

Pete44ru wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:21 pm
.

I had a Winchester Timber in .450 Marlin when it was first introduced (2004), but was disappointed with it in two ways.

* While the chambering seemed OK, I felt any of the real .45's I had (.45-70's, i.e.) were a lot more flexible in their available loadings.

*Both the .450 Timber, and the .444 Timber Carbine I had before it (1999), weren't as accurate as other type actions were.

FWIW, I personally feel that those cartridges are far better off chambered in an action better suited to their power than a Model 94 - like a Winchester 86 or a Marlin 336/1895 (I had both in .45-70 + a Marlin .444).

YMMV...…….

The best power in a lighter/scoped Winchester was IME a .356 Winchester BB94AE - which was effective for me out to (and occasionally past) 250yds on game.

That's my $0.02 - worth every penny you paid for it. ;)

.
Thanks for the real world experience answer. My other option is finding a BigBore 94 and doing the same thing I just figured the .450 would be easier to find (and possibly a bit cheaper). I know I could get more out of a .45-70 but that round just wont work in the lighter 94. This wouldn't be a hunting gun for me just a light handy gun kept on the horse for bear encounters.

In Montana this fall everyone packed a pistol but the rancher I was working for has had encounters with aggressive grizzlies before and preferred a rifle be carried. The compromise was that any time a group of riders went out together someone (usually me because I had the biggest) carried a rifle. For better or worse this got me out of doctoring cattle and put me on "overwatch" for lack of a better term.

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#4 Post by .45colt » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:02 pm

My two big guns are now an 1886/71 Pedersoli 45-70 and a Marlin 1895SSss 45-70. If I were in Your Boots right Now this is what I would look for. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/835218234 . You might be able to find a better price on a used one . but it will handle any load that Your Shoulder can take.

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#5 Post by HawkCreek » Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:21 pm

.45colt wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:02 pm
My two big guns are now an 1886/71 Pedersoli 45-70 and a Marlin 1895SSss 45-70. If I were in Your Boots right Now this is what I would look for. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/835218234 . You might be able to find a better price on a used one . but it will handle any load that Your Shoulder can take.
I have a Browning 71 Carbine and an 1886 is on my short list but that will probably end up a .50-110... My Marlin is alright but I'll always prefer a Winchester. Both of those are easy and great choices but the 94 would be smaller and lighter and thus easier on the horse (and harder on my shoulder).

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#6 Post by AJMD429 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:15 pm

I think part of the appeal was to get the power of a "modern load" 45-70 in a modern lever-action rifle. Still, the cartridge is long-for-power, kind of like the 375 H&H, versus say the 375 Ruger. The latter can work in shorter actions, and in a levergun, that makes a difference not only in action length, but lever-throw.

So when I was deciding on 'the best big-bore levergun' I looked at the 500 S&W, which is shorter, fatter, bigger meplat, and PLENTY of thump from a rifle. The Big Horn Armory Model 89 was perfect, although expensive (at my age, I'm transitioning from having "lots of pretty good firearms" to "a few really great firearms").

Size-wise, the Model 89 is slightly shorter than my Marlin 1894 44 Mag or a Marlin 336 30-30 (see below), or a Winchester 94, although the heft is more like a Guide Gun. Thump-wise (over 4,000 ft-lbs muzzle energy, Taylor Knock-out Factor of 64 for 400 grain factory load from Double Tap), and accuracy-wise (scoped, 5 shots in 2" at 100 yards), it is awesome. I can't see anything any other 'big bore' levergun could do that the Model 89 fails to do equally well, other than of course there is a huge nostalgia/historic factor with guns like the Winchester 1895, and perhaps less-so the Winchester 94 or Marlin 1895 derivatives. The stock and overall design makes shooting the heaviest loads NOT at all unpleasant, even from a bench during sighting-in.

Here is a photo to show the size of the very-powerful levergun. They make them in 460 S&W if you want to stick with 0.458" projectiles. They ain't cheap, but like I said, I am transitioning towards fewer and better - https://www.bighornarmory.com/product/m ... 18-500-sw/
Three Levers - 336, 89, 1894.png
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Last edited by AJMD429 on Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:03 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#7 Post by Grizz » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:24 pm

45 colt, I have that browning. it is a heavy rifle. beautiful, but heavy.

Hawkcreek seems to be looking for something lighter and handier.

What about a Winchester Model 92 ?? This is very light, with a better lockup than marlins. So, the problem with 44mags is the stupid slow rifling twist.. so I cannot use the 405g hardcast Redhawk load in a model 92 without swapping out the barrel. Not a bad idea.

But, a 45 Colt version can be loaded with a 405g bullet. Loaded to anything over 1000fps with the right bullet and fast enough twist will give you the wound forensics of a 45/70 trapdoor... just a thought

plus, the model 92 is the very best levergun on the planet, I think . . .

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#8 Post by BigSky56 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:01 pm

When checking cows horseback my saddle gun is a 94 in 30 wcf loaded with some 173gr hard cast fngc bullets. I've been in the alder thickets with cattle and brownies. I've used the same rifle to dump deer&elk, put a ghost ring on the backend a fire sight on the front end and your good to go. A nice light weight rifle is quick handling. A outfitter in the bob marshall Howard Copenhagen carried a 25/35 and dealt with brn & blk bears. If I was wanting a rifle pistol combo a 92 with a ruger redhawk in 45 colt a 300gr bullet at 1500 fps out of that rifle = a 45/90 .danny

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#9 Post by Nath » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:55 am

Pete44ru wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:21 pm
.

I had a Winchester Timber in .450 Marlin when it was first introduced (2004), but was disappointed with it in two ways.

* While the chambering seemed OK, I felt any of the real .45's I had (.45-70's, i.e.) were a lot more flexible in their available loadings.

*Both the .450 Timber, and the .444 Timber Carbine I had before it (1999), weren't as accurate as other type actions were.

FWIW, I personally feel that those cartridges are far better off chambered in an action better suited to their power than a Model 94 - like a Winchester 86 or a Marlin 336/1895 (I had both in .45-70 + a Marlin .444).

YMMV...…….

The best power in a lighter/scoped Winchester was IME a .356 Winchester BB94AE - which was effective for me out to (and occasionally past) 250yds on game.

That's my $0.02 - worth every penny you paid for it. ;)

.
Pete, that is the era when Winchester stopped trying!

Y'all know my findings about the lever connection at the bolt, it seems all the rifles from 1990 on were not fitted correctly.
It only takes a chainsaw file to relieve a hole some and usually groups tighten up.
The action is plenty strong but a bolt, any bolt on any firearm, if it can vibrate because it is not positively locked up will fail in regards to accuracy.
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#10 Post by Sevastopol » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:24 am

I have a newer Miroku made 94 in 450M. It's a take-down model called Trails End (IIRC), with a 20" ported barrel, Pachmeyr recoil padded straight stock. With a 1-4 VX2 on it, it comes in at just under 7.25 lbs. and, as all 94s are, it's a very handy rifle to carry. The 20" barrel makes it a tad front heavy when carrying it by the receiver, so cutting barrel length would move the balance point back some, while also reducing total weight.

Edited to add: Come to think of it, the take-down may not lend itself to having the barrel cut.

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#11 Post by 6pt-sika » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:58 am

I had 450 Marlin’s in of all things , Marlin rifles ! Had the original 1895M , the 1895MR and the 1895XLR . Never hunted the MR as they made very few of them and wanted it to be nice when I resold it . But I killed several deer with both the other versions . To each his own but I never cared for post 64 94’s in any chambering .
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#12 Post by wvfarrier » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:50 am

I had the 94 in 450 in a takedown. It was really finicky on what it would shoot accurately. I ended up having one of my 1886 (45-70) rifles cut down to 18" and have been very happy.
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#13 Post by 2ndovc » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:04 am

I'm a big fan of the .450 Marlin. I have mine set up as a scout rifle, but stripped down I doubt it weighs much more that a 20" barreled Winchester 94. It's been my go to hunting rifle since I got it for Christmas in '07 and it really does a number on wild boar! Just knocks them flat! I've loaded it down for light target loads but haven't tried any heavier bullets than the 350 grain bullets it was designed around. Haven't seen a reason to. Especially after seeing what they do to a large boar.

Plus, if it gets damaged you're not losing a collectable.

jb 8)
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#14 Post by AJMD429 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:46 am

2ndovc wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:04 am
Plus, if it gets damaged you're not losing a collectable.
That's always a consideration...!

Nath wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:55 am
Y'all know my findings about the lever connection at the bolt, it seems all the rifles from 1990 on were not fitted correctly.
It only takes a chainsaw file to relieve a hole some and usually groups tighten up.
Hmmmm......... I don't know about that....did you post about it on here....???
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#15 Post by Nath » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:25 am

AJMD429 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:46 am
2ndovc wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:04 am
Plus, if it gets damaged you're not losing a collectable.
That's always a consideration...!

Nath wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:55 am
Y'all know my findings about the lever connection at the bolt, it seems all the rifles from 1990 on were not fitted correctly.
It only takes a chainsaw file to relieve a hole some and usually groups tighten up.
Hmmmm......... I don't know about that....did you post about it on here....???
Many times but no one follows it up. One gent did and I didn't see any follow up report.

The later W94's don't lock up correctly. The rising lug should take over from the lever during about the last 1/16" of bolt travel. However many a bolt is closed completely by the lever. Yes the lug is up but it has not taken control over the lever and it's connection with the bolt.
The levers hole should be relieved so it does not press on the connection pin in the bolt when the bolt is closed and in battery.

A symptom of this is not only ammo fussy and poor groups but a lever that is barely retained by the small detent plunger. Some levers have even been known to want to fly open on firing thus is the tension on the link.

Now, I have only ever owned three W94's but have handled others.
My first one locked up perfectly and was not ammo fussy and grouped well. About a late eighties rifle.
My second was a pain in the azz. Would not shoot at all and had ( later realised) lousy lock up.
My third had also had a lock up issue but now after much thought I had realised the potential problem.
So I shot a few loads to test then opened the lever hole at the bolt. Instant positive lock up. Non stressed lever in battery and groups shrunk!

I travelled to a range one day to check a 94 they had for sale. I inspected the carbine of 1990ish construction and told them it won't shoot well in this condition! They asked how I know then gave me a large target and 20 RDS. Sure enough it threw it's bullets all over the place.
I instructed them what to do and get back in touch with me but they never did.

In principle it is no different to a turn bolt handle touching the stock when in battery, a known cause of accuracy issues.

N.
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#16 Post by M. M. Wright » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:45 am

AJMD429 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:46 am
2ndovc wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:04 am
Plus, if it gets damaged you're not losing a collectable.
That's always a consideration...!

Nath wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:55 am
Y'all know my findings about the lever connection at the bolt, it seems all the rifles from 1990 on were not fitted correctly.
It only takes a chainsaw file to relieve a hole some and usually groups tighten up.
Hmmmm......... I don't know about that....did you post about it on here....???
Yes Doc, Nath posted about it on here and he's correct. Quite often the lever will be knocked down out of the detent by it's contact with the bolt through the pin which attaches it to the bolt. If I had access to the prints they were working from I could probably find you the tolerance stack that causes that problem. Mechanical and manufacturing engineers use a system called Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing to prevent such tolerance build up but like Nath said it's easily fixed with a chain saw file.
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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#17 Post by Daniel44114 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:38 pm

I don't have a .450 Marlin.
I do have a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 and a Winchester Timber Carbine in .444 Marlin.
Both rifles are ported and I do not recommend them for hunting or shooting on the range. Both rifles are loud and my family will not hunt with me when I use them. I wear hearing protection when hunting and double hearing protection on the range.
Winchester makes this rifle without ports and if you go with the Winchester I would suggest you consider not having a ported barrel.
I do not feel there is any recoil reduction or less muzzle rise with the ports but that is a personal thought with nothing to back it up.
Personally I like the traditional tubular magazine lever action rifle and would prefer it. I would trade my Marlin Guide Gun for a Winchester in .450 as I prefer the slimmer feel of the Winchester. The recoil on these rifles is a factor in handling and I would not consider the take down version of the Winchester rifle - I am certain it is robust enough to handle the recoil but I want the forearm to stay in place under heavy bullet recoil and I would prefer the solid frame version.
The new Winchester has a different cartridge stop which seems to have solved the late production USRA rifles trouble with the cartridge stop.
The Browning has a small advantage in the clip if you are in and out of vehicles or on and off 4-wheelers.

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#18 Post by Nath » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:03 am

Daniel44114 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:38 pm
I don't have a .450 Marlin.
I do have a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 and a Winchester Timber Carbine in .444 Marlin.
Both rifles are ported and I do not recommend them for hunting or shooting on the range. Both rifles are loud and my family will not hunt with me when I use them. I wear hearing protection when hunting and double hearing protection on the range.
Winchester makes this rifle without ports and if you go with the Winchester I would suggest you consider not having a ported barrel.
I do not feel there is any recoil reduction or less muzzle rise with the ports but that is a personal thought with nothing to back it up.
Personally I like the traditional tubular magazine lever action rifle and would prefer it. I would trade my Marlin Guide Gun for a Winchester in .450 as I prefer the slimmer feel of the Winchester. The recoil on these rifles is a factor in handling and I would not consider the take down version of the Winchester rifle - I am certain it is robust enough to handle the recoil but I want the forearm to stay in place under heavy bullet recoil and I would prefer the solid frame version.
The new Winchester has a different cartridge stop which seems to have solved the late production USRA rifles trouble with the cartridge stop.
The Browning has a small advantage in the clip if you are in and out of vehicles or on and off 4-wheelers.
+1

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#19 Post by HawkCreek » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:56 am

Well I fell rather ashamed. The post from Grizz reminded me... I have a Miroku 92 Trapper length .45 Colt that I'd apparently forgot about. It's got a larger chamber that slightly bells the cases and after less than 50 rounds it went into the safe to be dealt with later...
I wont load it super hot as my sidearm is a .45 Colt and I dont want to carry a rifle load and a pistol.load that I have to keep separate.
I've never been a fan of matching calibers for the sake of ammo compatibility but a warm .45 Colt is plenty enough for big angry balls of fur with teeth and claws.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#20 Post by Pete44ru » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:35 pm

HawkCreek wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:56 am
I have a Miroku 92 Trapper length .45 Colt that I'd apparently forgot about.

It's got a larger chamber that slightly bells the cases and after less than 50 rounds it went into the safe to be dealt with later...



Have you explored any of the various ways to get the chamber corrected ?

My 1st try would be with Winchester, who may get it re-barreled as a fix.

My 2nd try would be to bore out the chamber a bit, then solder in a sleeve which could be chambered correctly.

Anything is better than giving up on something as nice as a Miroku.

.
IF IN THESE TYMES OF JEOPARDY,
MORTAL PERIL INVADES THY THOUGHT,
TAKE UP THIS TRVSTY PIECE,
TRVST IN THY GOD, AND FEAR THEE NAUGHT.

(The avatar is me, in 1948 ! )

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Re: Winchester 94 450 Marlin ??

#21 Post by HawkCreek » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:12 pm

Pete44ru wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:35 pm
HawkCreek wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:56 am
I have a Miroku 92 Trapper length .45 Colt that I'd apparently forgot about.

It's got a larger chamber that slightly bells the cases and after less than 50 rounds it went into the safe to be dealt with later...



Have you explored any of the various ways to get the chamber corrected ?

My 1st try would be with Winchester, who may get it re-barreled as a fix.

My 2nd try would be to bore out the chamber a bit, then solder in a sleeve which could be chambered correctly.

Anything is better than giving up on something as nice as a Miroku.

.

I haven't even made it to casting the chamber yet... I fired a few rounds of pretty weak American Eagle through it and saw that it was bulging cases. They don't bulge when fired through my Vaquero of Freedom Arms revolvers. But... The bulged cases still chamber in the Vaquero and I think the Freedom Arms as well.

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