Elmer Keith's Kaboom on Forgotten Weapons

[AJMD429]

I missed this episode when it came out - https://youtu.be/3t5X8f__vpk

If I were more organized and had more spare time for such things, I'd subscribe to that 'channel'.

[piller]

What little I know about Elmer Keith is that he was the driving force behind the invention of the .44 Magnum. That isn't much. It is fun to learn about people who did things which led to advances in firearms.

[AJMD429]

Interesting to see the balloon-head case in the exploded cylinder he was using with his hot loads, AND to hear that he was using rifle caliber bullets (0.458") in a revolver designed around 0.454" bullets...

As an aide, "Hell, I was There...!" is one of the best books I've ever read.

Here's another Forgotten Weapons video on "Elmer Keith's No.5" in 44 Special - his highly-customized, highly-engraved, daily carry gun dating back 90 years.

https://youtu.be/r-ef3z9Sv3s

[wm]

Ian's a nice guy. Very knowledgeable but very approachable. Karl (Ian's partner at 'InRange') is bit more 'edgy' but he means well. If you like their material then you probably would also like C&Rsenal.

Check out this sample ……

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9kPggzvYtg

Wm

[JimT]

Back in the 1970's I spoke at length with Mr. Keith about this very thing. I had been reading his stuff and was intrigued with the 300 gr. bullet in the .45 Colt. Ruger had come out with the large frame Blackhawk in .45 Colt and it made an excellent platform for use of this bullet. I sized the bullets from .458" to .452" in 3 steps and they worked just fine.

I shared with Mr. Keith what I was doing and the loads I had been experimenting with and he gave me his opinion that I was on the right track. He told me that he had the .44 Magnum and didn't need hot loaded .45 Colts but that he was interested in what I was doing.

I also consulted with John Taffin and we came up with some ideas that worked fine. Later a guy I had never heard of by the name of John Linebaugh called me and said he had heard I was experimenting with 300 gr. bullets in the 45 Colt. He shared with me some of what he was doing and it was way beyond what I thought was capable. He taught me a lot.

I still have the original Lyman mold ... #457191. The bullet was actually designed for the .45-90 but was/is used in various .45 caliber rifles. We are shooting it out of a CVA single shot Hunter .45-70 these days and it works quite well.

Here is a photo of my old .45 Colt load with the 300 gr. bullet. I seated it out and crimped into the top grease groove instead of over the front band. They are too long to get into a Colt SAA or a S&W by mistake.

457191.jpg

[J Miller]

Interesting to see the balloon-head case in the exploded cylinder he was using with his hot loads, AND to hear that he was using rifle caliber bullets (0.458") in a revolver designed around 0.454" bullets...

As an aide, "Hell, I was There...!" is one of the best books I've ever read.

Here's another Forgotten Weapons video on "Elmer Keith's No.5" in 44 Special - his highly-customized, highly-engraved, daily carry gun dating back 90 years.

https://youtu.be/r-ef3z9Sv3s

I think there is / was more to it than just the oversized bullets. The .45 Colt factory bullets I have measured run from .455" to .457" depending on manufacturer. So his .458" bullets were not that far out of line.
The early .45 Colt bore diameter was nominally .454", true, but the chamber throats could be as much as .457" or more.

I have both "Six Guns" and "Hell I Was There" and if my memory serves me right he said he was using DuPont #80 bulk smokeless powder. DuPont #80 was found to be prone to pressure spikes and he quit using it when he found Hercules 2400.

That as well as the weaker balloon head case, the weaker cylinder of the Colt, ( probably a black powder vintage revolver ), were contributing factors.
( Did you notice the head stamp on that one? U.S.C. Co. = United States Cartridge Company. )


I think this artifact is one of the neatest things I've seen. A good examination by a forensic laboratory could tell us much.

Joe

[J Miller]

JimT,

I'm jealous ... you actually spoke to Elmer Keith? Arrrrghhhhhh......

Your load, well the bullet over a proper charge of Win 296(?) might be a good rifle load. Not sure my wrists could handle the recoil any more from a revolver.
I've read numerous times that you can duplicate the old 45-90-300 black powder load with that weight bullet and 296, and I've been contemplating trying it.
I'll bet my Marlin 1894 would love it.

Is that mold still available?

Joe

[JimT]

Midway has them ... pricey!

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010242567?pid=659251

[Jay Bird]

Never been a huge fan of the 45 L. Colt, probably because of Elmer and Skeeter steering me towards the 44 Spl.in my formative years.

It took Elmer 11 shots but he did manage to hit a 7' sq. target at 700 yards with this Colt single action "slip gun" put together by Harold Croft (same guy who built Elmers #5). of Philly back in 1928 and as written by Elmer in "Sixguns" on the chapter on Long Range Shooting. John Taffin did a "Campfire Tales" write up on it. This Colt was made in 1906 and is in perfect mechanics.

This thing is incredibly accurate......it's hard to shoot.....you really have to hold it hard and focus but with 9 gr. of Unique and a 260 Lyman 454424 (?) I can knock over the 200 meter rams from a rest regularly.

Joe said it right about the blow up.....300 gr....#80......possibly BP steel.....all at a time when nobody really knew the limitations. Elmer did the experimenting for us.----6




Mmmmmm...just thinking here...got the 300 gr. 45-90 bullets and a half pound of #80.....maybe I'll blow up the slip gun today.

[JimT]

Naw. Don't do that. It's already been done. And by the Master.

Love that little slip gun!!

[Jay Bird]

[J Miller]

Midway has them ... pricey!

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010242567?pid=659251

E-GADS!!!!! Almost $85.00 for a single cavity mold???? Ouch!
It's been way too long since I looked things over.

joe

[Malamute]

I thought I recalled reading he had sized the bullets correctly for the Colt?

Regardless, there can/could be a number of contributing factors at play when the gun came apart with that load. I think Keith also said he was happy when 2400 powder came out, it was much better than No 80 powder for heavy loads.

[Malamute]

Joe, you may find one on ebay or on the castboolits forum. New moulds are pricey, used are often pretty reasonable. Theres also plenty fo good commercial cast available. as few of the heavies as I shoot, I never bothered with a mould for them.

[.45colt]

The older I get the more astounded I am at what Elmer did in His Lifetime . I doubt He ever sat still for very long.

[AJMD429]

The older I get the more astounded I am at what Elmer did in His Lifetime . I doubt He ever sat still for very long.

Another one of his vintage is Charles Askins - his autobiography called "Unrepentant Sinner" is a similar read to "Hell, I was There!" and definitely worth reading.

Those guys had an energy and drive you seldom see, and lived in an era where there were no social restraints where they roamed and with whom they associated for the most part.

[Bill in Oregon]

Ian says Keith was uninjured in this accident, but I thought Keith said it also blew the loading gate off and cut his finger pretty good. I have a .44-40 with a cylinder just like that one -- a black powder gun fired with, I believe, smokeless high-speed loads. I was not the shooter as this Colt was destroyed back about 1960. My Dad had loaned it to a friend ...

[marlinman93]

I've never been a big fan of the .44 Magnum, and prefer the .45 Colt or the .41 Magnum far more! But I'm also not been a fan of high recoil in any gun ever. I prefer to hold over a bit if need be, than have my hands and wrist sore from too much recoil. I enjoy shooting, and loads that hurt don't allow me to enjoy shooting.
My S&W Model 25-2, 8 3/8" in .45 Colt has been one of my favorite handguns for 40 years now. I've used it for mule deer, competitive shooting, and just plinking. It's tough for me to go to the range and not have it along, regardless of what else I'm going to shoot.

[Malamute]

I like both 44 mag and 45 Colt. Ive had several smith 29s over time, the favorite is a 4" I bought in about 1982. I carried it daily for years, camping, riding motorcycles daily, cutting firewood and everything else. It went everywhere I did, and slept in my sleeping bag with me. I figured out full power loads werent all the fun to shoot in large quantities, so the gun has had mostly 9 grs Unique with 240-250 gr cast bullets, which run about 1000 fps. I like having the ability to load it with full power loads in grizzly country, which starts outside the front door, but am happy shooting the medium loads most. The 4" is very nice to carry, Ive often forgotten Ive had it on after wearing it all day. If fits fine in vehicles, chairs, whatever, so problem. Its about a perfect all around daily carry gun if concealment isnt part of the equation.

4 inch 29.jpg

[kaschi]

In that video, Ian mentioned that some of Elmer Keith's guns were being auctioned off. Wonder what was up for sale an what they brought?

[.45colt]

Well here is an estimate of what the "Little Cowboy" achieved..... http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... 9-million/. Not Bad for a Cowpuncher.........

[Malamute]

In that video, Ian mentioned that some of Elmer Keith's guns were being auctioned off. Wonder what was up for sale an what they brought?

It happened several years ago. The post above has some info, google searching it will give more. There were some high quality pics of many of his guns online, I saved a couple.

[Bill in Oregon]

Malamute, there are few firearms as handsome as a big Smith N frame showing a LOT of honest use and holster wear. What a fine tool you have there.