Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

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wm
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Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by wm »

Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF? Years ago someone I think on this forum went into great deal about the 35-30 wildcat, developers credited with bringing it along and alluded to why Winchester almost but not quite offered the Winchester 94 in 35-30. I could use a refresher on the history.

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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

Interesting. Eventually it seems Remington occupied the space with the .35 Rem. I always wondered why they made the .32 Win Special as it didn't really seem to be a substantial gain over the .30 WCF. If you were going to replace the .32-40, why not go to a .35 Win Special? Would it encroach into .348 WCF territory? I suspect we'll learn that is was more of a Marketing decision than a technical decision. I look forward to hearing from the forum on this.
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Nath »

How I understood 32 special it was rifled around black powder. I thought the special came before 30/30??
Correction: it was introduced after 30/30 but was designed for folk wanting to use black powder.....probably made more sense back then than now!
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by J Miller »

Don't recall the story, but ... wouldn't the 35-3030 be very similar to the 38-55 in size and performance? They do share the same basic case.

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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by marlinman93 »

My guess would be because the .35 Remington used the same rim diameter, and worked just fine in lever guns. No reason to have a rimmed cartridge the same as a rebated rim sized .35 cartridge.
The question I always had was why didn't Winchester produce any Model 94's in .35 Rem.?
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by AJMD429 »

marlinman93 wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:27 pm My guess would be because the .35 Remington used the same rim diameter, and worked just fine in lever guns. No reason to have a rimmed cartridge the same as a rebated rim sized .35 cartridge.
The question I always had was why didn't Winchester produce any Model 94's in .35 Rem.?
I agree.

I presume the reason for the lack of a Winchester in 35 Remington was patenting battles...?
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Lastmohecken »

I think they just never got around to it. But they did give the 35 cal a few chances. There was the 348 winchester, but it kicked harder and was chambered in the heavier and more expensive model 71, and then they did come out with the 358 Winchester which was basically the .308 win necked up to 35 caliber, and the 358 Win was a fine round for short to medium range, but it kicked harder and was chambered in heavier rifles then the venerable 30/30. And there was also the 35 Winchester in the model 95, another pretty good round.

But the 35 caliber has never remained popular for that long in basically all of it's calibers, except the .357 mag of course. And there never has been as many bullet choices available as the 30 caliber. Americans in general have just always preferred the 30 caliber over the 35 caliber. The little 30/30 has outlasted them all.
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Lastmohecken »

I have always wished that the Browning BLR would have been brought out in 350 Remington Mag. Another great 35 caliber, but just like Winchester and the Model 94, they never did, as far as I know. I always did wonder why the model 94 didn't at least get a chance with the 35 Remington.
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Nath »

Does not the win94 action need a rimmed cartridge to feed and function?
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by marlinman93 »

AJMD429 wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:53 pm
marlinman93 wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:27 pm My guess would be because the .35 Remington used the same rim diameter, and worked just fine in lever guns. No reason to have a rimmed cartridge the same as a rebated rim sized .35 cartridge.
The question I always had was why didn't Winchester produce any Model 94's in .35 Rem.?
I agree.

I presume the reason for the lack of a Winchester in 35 Remington was patenting battles...?
I doubt it since Marlin chambered Remington's .35 in their Model 336. And I've seen other bolt guns factory chambered in .35 Remington that were Remington rifles. At one time the .35 Rem. was an extremely popular cartridge, but Win. just never got on the bandwagon in the Model '94 for whatever reason?
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by jhrosier »

Lastmohecken wrote: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:17 pm I have always wished that the Browning BLR would have been brought out in 350 Remington Mag. ....
They did offer the BLR in .358 Win.

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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Jay Bird »

You won't find ANY rifle over 30 caliber that has been popular over an entire range of shooters of all ages. The reason?----recoil

You won't find ANY rifle under 30 caliber that has been popular over an entire range of shooters of all ages.....for big game...The reason?....people don't think it will do the job.

The 30 calibers do it well enough to please the masses.

The way I've always understood why Winchester did not introduce the 35-30 or 35 Remington into their line up was several reasons.....they did not want competition for their more expensive 1895 in 35 WCF, .......they knew The 35 caliber was encroaching on their 38-55 and thus, would be a niche caliber, somewhat like the 25-35,.....and at that time in marketing, manufacturers HATED to roll stamp the name of a competitive manufacturer on their own rifles, especially if you "King of the Mountain", like Winchester.

The 32 Spl came in much the same way as the 44 magnum did over the 44 Spl. Many hunters wanted a more powerful 32 caliber rifle cartridge and there was no way Winchester was going to come out with a new "32-40 Magnum" or "32-40 Express"....as tens of thousands of black powder rifles would be in pieces.....solution? Simple.....Winchester had the machinery and jigs for the 1-16 twist 32 calibers and all they had to do was rechamber it in a nickel steel barrel and add a snazzy name..."Special"---6
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Mike Armstrong »

I've never heard anything about Winchester even considering chambering a 94 or anything else in .35-30 (as the wildcat came to be called). If they did, they certainly didn't let the press or customers in on the decision.

The main reason that wildcat exists is that it is a perfect rebore for a worn or damaged .25-35, .30-30, .32 Special or .32-40 that feeds fine in a 94 (or many other rifles, including Savage 99s with .30-30 head size ctgs.), uses bullets that are generally available for handloading, and is both very accurate and a proven killer of big game. The only fly in this ointment is that you need flat-nosed bullets in a tube magazine, which could be solved by using factory .35 Rem bullets or using cast bullets, which can be at least as effective as factory jacketed if shaped and handloaded correctly. 180gr. factory .357 Magnum "deer bullets" and .357 Maximum bullets and "LeverEvolution" bullets also work great, with a galaxy of other .357 pistol bullets to plink and hunt small game with.

Some of the wildcats were made up specially for shooting cast bullets on target ranges--many of those were custom single shots on Martini and other single shot actions, or on bolt actions that were set up for rimmed cartridges (I've seen Remington 788s and Lee-Enfields and Savage 340s made up for this use). .30-30 based wildcats used to be very popular with handloaders, partly because you could get all the once-fired .30-30 or .32 Special cases you could ever use by scrounging them at any range, formal or informal (I do NOT admit to this practice!).

IF you're a handloader and have a 94 with a bore in sad shape, the .35-30 AI* (no Bubba, not THAT AI!) is a very good choice that touches .35 Rem power without bustin' your wallet and/or your '94. IF you're a handloader....

*(The big advantage of the AI in this use is that it doesn't stretch cases like the tapered .30-30 family do, not the small extra powder capacity, which is only useful in a stronger action than a vintage '94 or '93, IMO).
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Malamute »

Its been mentioned a time or two already, but I dont believe the Winchester 94 action will function with rimless cases, so no 35 Rem chambering. The marlin action mostly enclosed the feeding cartridge, its basically loose in the action as its raised, the Winchester holds the rim of the shell as the carrier (lifter) raises the cartridge to feed, holds it until the bolt starts forward, then the rim is released by the cartridge guides as it starts forward into the chamber. No rim, no control of the cartridge to lift and be held in position to feed. The cartridge could end up popping out of the action when the carrier snapped up, or end up standing straight up.

I agree with Joe, the 38-55 pretty well covers whatever a 35-30/30 would do, and the "larger than 30 cal but not as powerful as the 30-40" (per Winchesters advertisement) was covered with the 32 Win Spl. Hindsight is great, but the shooting consumer was somewhat less informed and sophisticated in the early 1900s than today. Winchester had history with a wide variety of varying bores and chamberings, their decision on what they brought out was probably based on that experience, and what they did bring out was fairly popular in their time.

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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by Griff »

The 32 special came about due to complaints about the .30-30 being unsuitable for reloading with black powder. And it's more powerful than the .32-40.

As I recall the mdl 94 was chambered in (in order):
.32WCF & .38-55,
.30-30,
32 Winchster Special,
.25-35,
.44 Magnum,

The 94BB in:
.375 Winchester,
.307 Win,
.356 Win,
& ???

The 94AE in: (no particular order):
All of the 94 cartridges except the .25-35 (I think),
.45 Colt,
.38 Special/.357 Magnum,
.450 Marlin, & something else... I just can't remember 'em all!
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by 65bee »

Everybodys kind of been biting at the edges of this discussion. You have to remember that Winchester had introduced the smokeless .33 WCF in 1902, in the '86 model. Remington didn't come out with the .35 Rem. until around 1908. It was a matter of Remington trying to cover the bases by bringing out the .35 to compete with the .33, not the other way around. As good as the .35 Rem. was, the .33 WCF was just a little bit better ballistically.
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Re: Any one recall the story as to why Winchester never offered a 35 caliber round based on 30 WCF

Post by J Miller »

Griff wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:15 am The 32 special came about due to complaints about the .30-30 being unsuitable for reloading with black powder. And it's more powerful than the .32-40.

As I recall the mdl 94 was chambered in (in order):
.32WCF & .38-55,
.30-30,
32 Winchster Special,
.25-35,
.44 Magnum,

The 94BB in:
.375 Winchester,
.307 Win,
.356 Win,
& ???

The 94AE in: (no particular order):
All of the 94 cartridges except the .25-35 (I think),
.45 Colt,
.38 Special/.357 Magnum,
.450 Marlin, & something else... I just can't remember 'em all!
I believe the 94AE was also chambered for the 444 Marlin. I think.

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