7mm to 338 to 45/70

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Grizz
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7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by Grizz »

when I moved to Alaska, lock, stock, and barrel in a previous century, I had a winchester 12ga trench gun and a marlin 30-30. I traded out of both, the marlin became a 25-20 model 92. I took some deer with it, but decided it was woefully inadequate for an environment where chasing down a mortally wounded deer might make a mortally wounded hunter if brer bear sprung the trap..... so I upgraded to a 7mm RM. I did this because in my preparation days, before moving, I met someone who lives in the Brooks Range and lives off the caribou migrations, overwintering in splendid isolation. His tale involved taking caribou from around five or more hundred yards. He shot the ones at the end of the string to avoid stampeding them, and only shot as many as he could process and get into the cache before they froze that day. He repeated this until he was assured of enough meat to last through breakup.

I loved developing the 7 for my needs. The remington bolt gun was unbelievably accurate with a peep sight in the rear scope mount. I made a lot of meat with it, but found a bullet lodged in the offside hide once and decided this was not a gun to carry in hopes of stopping a bear. That thought was reinforced by a fisherman whose Dad was a professional guide, and quickly gave up the 7mm after a number of failures of one shot stops. Plus I visited with a guy who was charged by a bear running downhill at him, he got 4 shots from his 7mm into it, and the bear knocked him over and out. When he came to there was a dead bear lying nearby.

So, I got a 338 WM... I loved developing the 338 for my needs. But wrong caliber for that location. The reason, at that time the 338 bullets I reloaded were TOO FRANGIBLE to trust at close range. There are lots of caveats, and I know of a couple of guys who killed brownies with 270s, and one who killed 50+ brownies with a 30-06. But in every case they killed NON-charging bears, as have lots of bow hunters. I was not mollified by any of those stats.

At the same time I acquired a 44mag superblackhawk and began developing loads for that. A friend in Juneau was casting 320 PB from a hard-ish lead alloy, and I experimented with loads until I found one that was accurate and a non-event from the 10" barrel. But the thing it was, it was a HAMMER on deer. I made lots and lots of venison with that, the only runners were heart shots and they collapsed quickly. But I was not confident that I had a bear stopper, even though that revolver was the closest I got to that point.

So then I got a 45/70 and I loved developing loads for that gun. In many penetration tests I found bullets that won't self-destruct on any animal from any angle, the heart or head shot was always available from any angle, and needless to say there is a certain level of confidence in those variables. The guide gun is amazingly accurate and consistent, more than enough gun for guides, and easy enough on deer out to the limit of my eyesight. We truly can "eat right up to the hole", unlike the jello left behind by the 338 when my sight line was off a scoch.

So then I got a redhawk so that, if one arm was in brer bear's jaws I might still get a shot off with the other hand, and I got a load from Marshall that put his 405Gr hard cast bullets into the category of the 45/70 at the business end, in the sense of massive penetration without bullet deformation, and no bullets stopping in the off side hide, which is my definition of a load failure.... and how I arrived here.

I KNOW ! I know. Everyone has their own definition. Stopping in the offside hide sounds perfect to some folks. I carry loads that don't, or shouldn't exit for social animal occasions. But outdoors, out of the city, I'm down to 4 firearms, two of which I will have with me walking in the woods.

You've been very patient if you got this far. Thanks for listening. This is mainly for my kids, but it's fun to share.
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GunnyMack
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by GunnyMack »

You make good points as to tooth fang and claw bullets need to hit and keep going. However, nosler partitions or swift a frames would probably have worked but no body in their right mind would want to find out?!
Thanks for sharing your experiences !
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by AJMD429 »

Always good to hear from someone actually living with, and depending on, their firearms. Most of just shoot dirt clods, garden pests, paper, and the occasional deer.
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2ndovc
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by 2ndovc »

Good read!

I've always wondered what I would settle on if living up there and a small battery of firearms. We've had a cabin in NW PA since 1967 and the black bear population has risen and fallen multiple times over the years. You just never know what you're going to run into up there. I always have a 1911 or large cal revolver on my hip but in recent years is seems like we have many more bears and they aren't as timid as they used to be. Once they hear or catch a sniff of the dogs, they usually beat feet but there has been a couple times that have been the exception. Both times because of a momma and her cubs. I was quite confident in my .45-70 with a magazine full of 405 hard cast would solve the problem. The first time all it took was a big, deep woof from my Great Dane and the bears took off at a fast run. The second time I was out by myself and momma bear was not pleased about my presence. One shot at her feet and they decided to go the other way. I sometimes carry an M1A, 1903 or an Enfield but the Marlin LTD III always makes the trip too.
Not surprisingly, I've had more issues with two legged predators than four up there. But that's another story.

jb 8)
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by Pete44ru »

.

What was very interesting to me, is the background on the prominent Alaskan bear guide, Ed Stevenson, and his settling on a Miroku/Winchester Model 1895 levergun, reamed to .375 Scovil.

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/ ... &magid=104


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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by Merle »

GunnyMack wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:05 am You make good points as to tooth fang and claw bullets need to hit and keep going. However, nosler partitions or swift a frames would probably have worked but no body in their right mind would want to find out?!
Thanks for sharing your experiences !
I'll second this! :shock:
Merle from PA
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by M. M. Wright »

Thanks Grizz. Most enjoyable and informative. I too have an 86 Browning SRC 45-70 that's been shortened. It's the same length as a 94 SRC and wears a receiver sight. Very handy! I'm partial to 300 grain gas checked Pb and 5744.
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Grizz
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by Grizz »

Thanks Pete. Turns out Stevenson and I both came to the same conclusions the same way. If we had had failsafe solids early on, we might have progressed differently.

I never had to shoot a bear. I was surrounded by them and they are obnoxiously invisible when they want to be. I like that his latest rifle is 45/70/405.... I want to experiment with a 475gr TC bullet for the guide gun. I have a hunch about that. It might replace my standard, the 525Gr hardcast. 405 is great from my hand gun.

The ADF&G guys were carrying shortened 458 WMs when I was in the woods a lot. Which of course is the 45/70 on steroids and testosterone supplements. That's where you can drive projectiles to self destruction to see what happens.

The problem with the bolt gun is that the second shot, if possible, is a problem. The levergun has the best reload time short of a self-loader.

@M.M.Wright : I have a Browning 1886. I love that thing so much that it is a safe king. I've barely fired it, but I did notice it was fond of the 460Gr hard cast, which is what got me thinking about 475Gr as the halfway point between 425 and 525. After I get moved and into my shop, that question is going to get some attention.

Interesting comment about taping the barrel. I always do that. It helps keep dirt out too, like when the gun accidentally becomes a hiking aid. But at night the tape comes off and the gun barrel gets douched with WD-40 till it's running out the action, and the gun gets propped against the stove.

It's all old memories now, but they're good ones to replay.
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by piller »

I have a Marlin Guide gun. They are not as solidly built as the 1886, but they can still put a 405 grain hard cast LBT style bullet where it is needed. That should be all I need.
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Grizz
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by Grizz »

THANKS. is yours stainless? my stainless one holds up very well around salt water... and it is quite accurate in the stand up off hand the way I shoot it. and everyone who shoots it has a big smile and they hit what they point it at, so I am all around happy with it.

the machine work on mine is atrocious. I got it in Juneau a while ago, can't remember when. It was so badly made that I had to refit the lower unit to the frame, and then reshape the frame bottom to match. There are chatter marks in the machine work inside the receiver. I worked on the moving components for days, blue fitting the parts. It is a slick as a marlin can be now. This one was before the sale of Marlin, so there was bad blood at the factory. I looked at every one they had in the store and gambled.

I looked at a new one recently and it appears to be much better built than mine... a shame really, because I can't afford a new one now. But the one I have is a keeper, even if it is an ugly one.

I've thought about shortening the barrel many times, because it matters in the buck brush, but I worry that he might lose his amazing consistency. Can't tell you what that is on paper because I've never shot for groups. But seashells, clay fragments, and rocks are in serious peril.

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gamekeeper
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by gamekeeper »

Very interesting post, I can only dream of living amongst Bears but it's still nice to have some knowledge on the subject.
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by AJMD429 »

"The levergun has the best reload time short of a self-loader."

That's why I think if I were to be 'up there', I'd either have my 500 S&W levergun (BHA 89) or my 50 Beowulf (AR-15). Probably 500 grain hardcast from the former, and 400 grain solid from the latter.

Unsure what Handgun I'd depend on. I have a Redhawk in 44 Mag and one in 45 Colt, and both are about all my wimpy wrists can handle recoil-wise. Maybe a Glock in 10mm would be better though...
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Grizz
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by Grizz »

gamekeeper wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:43 am Very interesting post, I can only dream of living amongst Bears but it's still nice to have some knowledge on the subject.
I had a friend and neighbor, native to the area, who was terrified of the bears, and killed a lot of them, and still woke up on the floor of his house because he still dreampt of them.

I was never comfortable surrounded by type A predators, brownies rummaging under the house, and sizing us up as MREs..Sea lions and sperm whales ravaging the fishing gear and co-opting the harvest . . . perhaps, if I could resume my fishing "career" and you could visit, we could explore the bear's spaces . . . I wish . . . it's the invisible ones that scare me the most.
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Grizz
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Re: 7mm to 338 to 45/70

Post by Grizz »

AJMD429 wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:17 am "The levergun has the best reload time short of a self-loader."

That's why I think if I were to be 'up there', I'd either have my 500 S&W levergun (BHA 89) or my 50 Beowulf (AR-15). Probably 500 grain hardcast from the former, and 400 grain solid from the latter.

Unsure what Handgun I'd depend on. I have a Redhawk in 44 Mag and one in 45 Colt, and both are about all my wimpy wrists can handle recoil-wise. Maybe a Glock in 10mm would be better though...
It's a good point Doc. I think 50 Beo would be great. It's on my short list.

I didn't mention the semiauto PTR91, 7.62 G3 clone. It has 20+1 capacity and though 'only' 30 caliber, I trust that multiple 147gr Ball would stop Brer Bear... I just can't flick around an 11 pound firearm any more!

But about wrists and recoil and redhawks, if you chop the MV to just under 1000fps, and shoot 405gr hard cast, you will come close to the original 45/70 load at the business end. You can slow it down even more, doing comparison penetration tests. When I get back to it I plan to do just that, explore the lower end of the velocity range and establish a low speed performance bench mark.
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