Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Bill in Oregon
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8849
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Sweetwater, TX

Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Lots of theories on this. Many want a hard cast boolit that scarcely deforms but pencils right on through a game animal -- "letting air in and air out."
Others want some deformation to help open the wound channel and increase internal damage for a quick kill.
Paul Matthews, in his book "The Paper Jacket," concluded that he preferred dead-soft, homogenous lead delivered without leading via the paper patch to give maximum punch on the game target.
In the days of the buffalo harvest, Winchester loaded a lot of ammo for the big single shots using 1:16 alloy, which gives a BHN between 10 and 11.
The clip-on wheelweights that many use have a BHN of 12, and 18 when water-quenched.
Who is right?
What do you like, what do you hunt with it and why do you like it?
Leverluver
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: WY

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Leverluver »

Depends on what you are hunting and the velocity that the projectile is expected to impact at. For the 45-70 (which Mathews was talking about) I would agree with his assessment for the game he is talking about. I am not a "pencil through" person but with some cartridges on some tougher animals, it has it's place. And tin only hardness cannot be compared to equal hardness with antimony. Antimony is brittle and will fracture more readily if impact is fast enough and what it hits (bone) is hard enough. In expansion tests, in gelatin, I've blown the nose clear off piledriver style heavy weight bullets due to the high antimony content. In most cases, I'd rather be high content tin and little to no antimony, accept some expansion and keep the bullet together. I'm sure many others will disagree.
User avatar
fordwannabe
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3369
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:52 am
Location: Womelsdorf PA

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by fordwannabe »

I believe I have shot 15-20 animals with centerfire lead bullets,so a small sample but I like 50/50 pure and coww, water quenched. In doing some water jug test it seems to expand yet hold together..ish. Hard bullets seem to either hold together completely or explode into shrapnel(no not Kirk S.). What alloy is what I am testing now with that 35-30 from the other thread among other things. I will let you know how I make out.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18563
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Sixgun »

I've always used good ole Lyman #2 alloy. Leverluver and FW said it pretty well......only thing I can add to that is the shape of the bullet.....we've dropped elk in their tracks with a flat faced 45-70 buller.

You can also use pure lead up to 1800-2000 fps for a great mushroom in the lesser calibers like 30 cal......the trick is to have a clean barrel with previous experimenting as to POI. A few shots won't lead to the point of enough leading to where it affects accuracy.---6
Model A Uzi’s
Image
Bill in Oregon
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8849
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Sweetwater, TX

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Fellas, I am thinking 200-240 grain boolit at 2100 or so out of a .35 Remington for cow elk to 100 or a little farther.
User avatar
6pt-sika
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9466
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by 6pt-sika »

I’ve killed around sixty head of deer and two black bear with cast in a variety of cartridges . But mostly 444 and 45-70 . Anyway I used plain old WW alloy usually air cooled but some water quenched . The water quenched were mostly for gripping the micro groove a bit better when I pushed them hard to stabilize in 1:36 twist .
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
User avatar
GunnyMack
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9936
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:57 am
Location: Not where I want to be!

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by GunnyMack »

I've not used cast on animals however I have used roundballs from my .54 muzzle loader and .50 black belts in my inline. The RBs expand but tend to go through deer easily. The full diameter black belts are hollow points and expand but they go through. Personally I prefer a bullet to use its energy inside the animal. That leads me to now load a RB and use a bullet puller to put a hole in the ball- they really expand!
I was told years ago that if you put a piece of paper between the mould blocks in the nose the bullet will expand. I have cast 44s this way but never used them on game.
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
wm
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1379
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:03 pm

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by wm »

I defer to the wisdom and knowledge from others on this subject but will add that the question of alloy is only one part of this issue.

Factors like bullet shape, pressure, jump to leade, bore diameter, cup vs no cup, twist rate, velocity, temperature when shooting, type of game animal, distance (i.e. velocity upon contact), etc. are all subtle but important factors in outcomes.

For example we (my buddies & I) noted that 148 grain HBWC loaded backwards behaved differently when shot in 100 degree bright sunshine at the range one afternoon followed by shooting early the next morning at the indoor range in 65 degrees in air conditioning. Just that 35 degree difference effected the lead and lube enough to produce slightly different results. Frankly it may have also effected the powder to some slight degree as well.

Wm
User avatar
Shasta
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1556
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Shasta »

I had good luck using gas checked wheel weight bullets in my leverguns, or pure lead in my muzzleloaders or Sharps. Unfortunately, as of July 1, 2019, we here in the state if Kommifornia will not be allowed to hunt any animal with any bullet containing lead. This presents a special problem for me in that I prefer older style firearms. I can get all copper projectiles costing a dollar each or more, and I can get a 16-10 bismuth / tin alloy 1 lb. bar for $16, but that would produce only a very few 45-70 bullets, and I am reluctant to put such a hard and expensive bullet through mt vintage guns.
I had the extreme good fortune this coming hunting season to draw a CA tag for elk after years of trying. I had hoped to hunt with my flintlock or perhaps mt Shiloh Sharps, but it looks like I will be relegated to either my 6.5 Creedmoor or my .270 Win. All my old lead shooters are now relegated to plunking metallic silhouette targets I guess. :x

Oh yeah, they will also be requiring background checks on any ammunition purchase. Just a matter of time before they go after the components we reloaders use as well.

Shasta
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member


http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html

avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
User avatar
6pt-sika
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9466
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by 6pt-sika »

Shasta wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:01 pm
Oh yeah, they will also be requiring background checks on any ammunition purchase. Just a matter of time before they go after the components we reloaders use as well.

Shasta
Hence the reason I constantly pick up powder primers and projectiles when I catch a deal somewhere . It’s better to have way more then you need rather then not enough to get by 8)
Parkers , Mannlicher Schoenauer’s , 6.5mm's and my family in the Philippines !
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by piller »

Shasta, that is harsh. Too bad you couldn't have moved when that wildfire caught you. Seems to me that I read somewhere that the study showing lead exposure destroying Condors was conducted specifically to give the results they wanted. I could be wrong.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
Sixgun
Posting leader...
Posts: 18563
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Sixgun »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:26 pm Fellas, I am thinking 200-240 grain boolit at 2100 or so out of a .35 Remington for cow elk to 100 or a little farther.

That's about exactly what a 33 Winchester does.....worked for me on a bull elk at 125.-----6
Model A Uzi’s
Image
Bronco
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 895
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:03 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Bronco »

I water quench what ever alloy I am casting! I used to use wheel weights, cannot get them anymore so switched to a #2 alloy. Anyway I read once and have since do, that when making them for hunting I place the cast bullets in a pan of water up to the crimp groove, or a hair above. Then take a propane torch and heat the nose just until I see the nose turn silver, then let the nose air cool. Gotta be quick to stop or they melt. Practice, practice, practice. Now I have a substantially softer nose than the shank. Shank about bhn 20 and the nose around 12.
To each their own but this works for me. Using wet newspaper bundles, the nose deforms more than a none treated bullet. Not a great mushroom, at the velocities I shoot at, but more of a groove diameter flat. I am probably over thinking and processing the bullet, but what the heck. All part of rolling your own :mrgreen: They still hold up when hitting large bone!
Gettin old ain't for sissies!
There just has to be dogs in heaven !
BigSky56
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:49 pm
Location: NW Montana

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by BigSky56 »

Beartooth bullets out of Idaho, low antimony so the don't shatter and flat nose to cause a cavation bubble when they hit flesh and blood. 173gr in 30 cal and 245gr in 348, can't keep them in deer or elk. In pistols the same outfit. danny
M. M. Wright
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:57 pm
Location: Vinita, I.T.

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by M. M. Wright »

I cast lots of 44-40 and 45-90 bullets. I use 20:1 alloy for most everything but like 30:1 for hunting bullets especially in the 45-90. I keep a couple of 20 lb ingots of each that are alloyed up from pure lead and pure tin. I don't know what difference it makes since I've never recovered a bullet. Sure makes pretty bullets though.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
User avatar
Tycer
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7690
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Tycer »

I use WW+2% tin+1% Magnum Shot. No shattering. Even quenched. Even into red clay. Decent deformation on bone or clay.
WFP bullet. Clean. Like a pipe was shoved through. Eat right up to the hole.
Follow the Linebaugh penetration tests of 1800 fps entry and heavy for caliber.
Kind regards,
Tycer
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saf.org - https://peakprosperity.com/ - http://www.guntalk.com
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by marlinman93 »

I've never hunted anything but mule deer with my old guns and cast bullets, so that's my only reference. I cast my bullets softer than most folks at 1:25 ratio, and that's what I use for targets or hunting. I've never had any problems with penetration on deer, or stopping power. My loads are generally around 1350 fps, with smokeless powder, and they get the job done. All my shots have been 150 yds. or less, and one shot kills.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy? BTB update

Post by Grizz »

I've only killed Sitka Blacktails in Alaska when hunting, except my first deer on the Mogollon Rim with a Savage 99.

In Alaska a friend was casting plain base 44 mag bullets and doing something to toughen the nose. I shot a lot of deer with that load, and only ever recovered one bullet that had penetrated the head and traveled along the spine.

After that I bought a stainless guide gun and started loading hard cast bullets that I bought from Beartoothbullets. I experimented with other makes and models of bullets, doing side by side water jug tests and firewood penetration so I could recover the bullets and compare them. I also did a hammer test on the various bullets and Marshall's alloy is not frangible and does not shatter at impacts far higher than encountering bone at moderate velocities. The BTB 525 grain piledriver departing the marlin at around, say, 1410 or a bit more. I have my load notes but not the chrono sheets that go with. That 525 penetrates 12 one-gallon jugs of water, which is about 6 or 7 feet of water. The bullet increased in diameter at the nose a bit, but looks like it could be reloaded and reused. I will post a picture when I stumble across one.

For me, this is EXACTLY what I want to see. This bullet can pass through both rear hip sockets of a coastal brown bear or moose or mad cow, or both shoulder sockets, or thru the head and a hip joint. This is what I want.

That 320gr my friend was casting was my main revolver load and it hammered deer like a big gun, complete pass through from any angle, so every setup was a meat maker. AND, yes, you can eat up to the hole. Unlike the exit wound through a ham from my 338 WM, which turned meat to jello...

That's all I know, and it ain't much, but my loads are accurate, reliable, trustworthy, and dependable...

Good Night Y'all

P.S. This is the piledriver recovered from jug # 12. . . there are not a lot of setups that compare to this. I know of one man who investigated my 405g 44 redhawk load. He got 1100 fps from his redhawk and penetrated 12 or 13 jugs. This puts the redhawk in the category of the fabled buffalo guns of times past.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Grizz on Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bill in Oregon
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8849
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Sweetwater, TX

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Thanks Grizz. Marshall's bullets do have a fine reputation.
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cast boolit hunting alloy?

Post by Grizz »

bump for photo
Post Reply