Big Bore......

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Ray
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Big Bore......

Post by Ray »

Snub-Nosed Revolvers.....

I have several of them. I know that they are considered somewhat obsolete in this tactitard world but I often carry one or two when I go out and about.

What is the current consensus of the forum ?

I see even charter arms makes or has made a .41 magnum !
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I've been intrigued by the Charter Arms Bulldog since first reading about them in a Gun Digest article from the 1970s. Only thing that has held me back was the indifferent quality control over the years. Seems like there have been good ones and bad ones. Which big-bore snubbies are you packing, Ray?
wm
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by wm »

I carry a variety of handguns but the three I carry most often (which is to say 90% of the time) these days is a S&W 36 38 spl with 3" barrel, Charter Arms 44 spl Bulldog with 3" barrel, or S&W Shield which is in its own way is a snub nose.

They are all a compromise …… giving up barrel length and mass which degrades shootability and ballistic performance in order to gain in carry comfort and concealability. Obviously I think the trade off is worthwhile, otherwise I would carry larger firearms.

Everyone's circumstances is different …… body type, environment, expectations, etc. but I think the important thing is mind set. Being alert, mindful to avoid violent encounters, matters more then what iron you pack. Next in importance is mind set. If a violent encounter happens is your mind right to deal with it. So often you hear people who are assaulted say 'I couldn't believe it was happening. I just stood there and couldn't quite make myself believe it.'. And finally being confident and competent with the firearm you own. Owning a firearm doesn't make you a shooter any more then owning a guitar makes you a musician.

And finally shooting is a perishable skill. Practice it. Often.

That's my opinion based on my 52 years. Over thinking it sells a lot of bandwith and advertising but it really is pretty simple. YMMV

Wm

P.S. Humans have not gotten any stronger, tougher or more armored in the last 200 years. Nothing magical in bullets, they just make holes that cause fluids to leak. A human body loses enough fluid and it shuts down.

P.P.S. Just reread my answer and realize it may come off as me being a pompous a--! It didn't sound that way in my head when I typed it but it sure reads that way. I apologize for coming off like a know it all. That was not my intention.
Bill in Oregon
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

WM, you are offering perfectly sound advice -- the same advice taught here in a two-day course and qualifying session for the New Mexico concealed carry license.
The defensive handgun is really a small part of the total "weapon" you must deploy in a violent encounter.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by gamekeeper »

wm your advice and experience makes perfect sense to me, however being a subject of the crown I'm denied the freedoms you enjoy, I rely on you guys for accurate opinions on such matters.
So, I was pleased to see Ray's post on Big Bore snubbies. I've always had a liking for revolvers rather than semi autos, the few semi autos I shot before they were banned over here never felt as reassuring as a big bore revolver did, to me anyway. Not that UK law would have allowed me to carry it I always intended to buy a Charter Arms Bulldog, too late now, can't have one at all.... :evil:
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by JimT »

I had a 4" .45 Colt built by Gary Reeder some years ago. Carried it and hunted with it some. Not sure if that is a "snubby" but since I usually used a 7 1/2" it felt like one to me. :D

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Pete44ru
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Pete44ru »

.

I've had several .41, .44 & .45 revolvers over the years, including S&W Models 1917, M-29's & a M-58, Ruger Blackhawk's, a bunch of various 1911's, and (in the 1970's) a Charter Arms Bull Dog.

I found both the S&W M-58 & the 70's Charter Bull Dog very uncomfortable to shoot - although both had no reliability issues.

The 1911's and the Ruger's went down the road for one reason or another (I gifted a Remington 1911R1 to my oldest Grandson on his 21'st B-day).

I finally settled on a newer (Y2K) .44 Bull Dog - which I find reliable, accurate, easy to carry, and comfortable to shoot.


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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Pete, that's interesting. What is it about the newer Bulldog that makes it a better choice?
I know that for a while there, the Bulldogs occasionally broke the beryllium copper fire pins.
I'm thinking a Lee .429-200RF at 750 out of a Bulldog would be reasonable to shoot and still carry some oomph.
I have a Springfield XD 9 subcompact that I am just not bonding with.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Pete44ru »

.

I don't know exactly what's different, Bill, beyond the rubber bumpers and the fact that's it's stainless ILO blued carbon steel.

I do think the later BD sights are better, though.

I didn't have any reliability or accuracy issues with either my 1970's blued BD or this stainless Y2K version.

I do believe, however, that CA issues are really just passed on by non-buyers, and any stated/published CA issues are overblown by a minority of actual buyers that do have an issue - after all, it's the noisy wheel that gets the most grease. :mrgreen:

The internet has IMO helped to spread both good and bad news, wider & faster than prior years - and so I much prefer to make my own decisions and actually buy/try.

If whatever turns out to be less than I thought, it's easy enough to move it on down the road with very little loss (and sometimes a profit ;) ).


.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Sixgun »

I've carried all of these at one time or another......642 Smith at top.....Colt New Service Target 45 Colt....Colt Det. Spl .38....one of a handful Smith 629's with fixed sights and the Colt Single Action Slip Gun .45 very possibly used by Elmer Keith in 1928. With normal loads the big bores are easy to handle.----6

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1st Gen. Single Action Colts. Poof! Poof!

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Re: Big Bore......

Post by wm »

Sixgun …… how do you like the 642? I'm thinking of ordering a 442 as a back pocket sort of carry gun.

Wm

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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Sixgun »

Wm,
You know the old saying......."you may have a lot of guns but only use a few of them....or something like that. :D My 642 is my "ALWAYS" gun as Sheriff Jim Wilson says. I changed the grips to a smooth laminate and oven/epoxied the frame OD green. This thing glides out of my pocket...front or back.....rides well in my Carhart jacket and it (if I ever have to) can shoot right through the pocket with no worry of a malfunction. I have logged 1400 rounds out of it and she's still tight. Must have been dropped 50 times as it's always with me and takes the same tumbles as I do.

My duty load is a soft swaged 200 grain round nose with the round nose flattened out and is loaded to almost exactly 600 fps.....duplicates the old English 38/200 load which is well known to be an excellent stopper.

Some guys here don't like me because of my attitude towards cheap foreign guns. I've seen it all...I shoot my working guns, not a box a year then polish it up and neatly put it away......the cheapie Taurus and Rossi's (not all...hit or miss) last several hundred rounds before problems kick up. A gun is life insurance....I've seen the others hang up and guns can sense stress...yes...they can sense it.......and you don't need a malfunction because you wanted to save $100 so you can go out to dinner on a Saturday night....Buy Smith & Wesson, Colt, or Ruger.......I don't know enough about semi automatics to talk about them...except Colt 1911's.--6..... yes...I recommend the 442 you talked about.
1st Gen. Single Action Colts. Poof! Poof!

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Sometimes you got to suck em in like a vacuum cleaner! :D
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by piller »

Of course, a double action revolver without a hammer spur is going to be easy to draw or shoot through the jacket pocket. What you are going to trust with your life should be of top quality. Are you going to trust your car's brakes to Jimmy Joe's car repair and landscaping services?

I am not a fan of Smith & Wesson, and I like Ruger. I am not saying anything bad about S&W. They just do not fit me. The SP101s fit me, and PillHer can make the range personnel look up when she makes little tiny groups with her .327 Federal caliber SP101. She usually gets some questions about where she learned to shoot.

No matter. If you are going to trust your life to a gun, DO NOT GO CHEAP. I have a couple of cheap guns for just plinking and play. If I am going to trust my life with it, it must be worth trusting.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Paladin »

I am fond of 3in (a couple of shorter) revolvers and almost added photos of a couple of 4 in revolvers that I carry often. Lots of Rattlesnakes at the AZ house and the Alaska house has wolves and bears that have shown up a few times so LARGE bore is a good thing. A couple of .44s and .357s (,38 went with the divorce).22 Mag in AZ works well.
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wm
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by wm »

I have the brother USPS Inspector revolver to yours. I don't carry it often but it is one of my favorites.

THe Ruger Speed/Secuirty/Service Six line was a darn fine group. I understand why Ruger discontinued it but ……………. I am always on the look out for another one.

Wm
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by 1894c »

this is an interesting post... went to a LEO briefing last week, the topic was "reaction vs action" in a OIS (officer involved shooting). We talked about how one needs to be prepared mentally to exchange fire, especially during a traffic stop or a DV (domestic violence). We talked about a couple of ambush incidents that have taken place recently, which resulted in the death or the wounding of an LEO.

The FBI has recently determined that if you come under fire from an individual that your chances of hitting the suspect with return fire is 17% (reaction). The chances of the suspect (who initiated the attack) hitting you is 60% (action). We had an interesting discussion among 25 LEO's. We ended our discussion when an LEO, who is a retired Marine and combat veteran, reminded us that we should greet everyone with a smile, and have a plan to kill everyone we meet (in some ways good advise). Not sure if the Admin will allow this sort of tactical thinking within our policy manual.

I use to be a big revolver guy, especially snub-nose...but now I'm strictly an auto guy, simply due to the capacity and quick reloading ability of a semi-auto pistol... :)

WM is right on the money..."And finally shooting is a perishable skill. Practice it. Often." -- I practice with my hand-guns almost every week, even when it rains, snows, or is hot...

My always gun at this point is a S&W M&P Shield M2.0 in 9mm...w/ 2 spare mags...
11808-Shield-M20_1.jpg
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Had the Shield in .45 and traded it toward a Ruger 1911. Of course, the 1911 was just too big.
Man, I have nothing but the greatest respect for LEOs and the risks they face "from out of nowhere."
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Walker »

My recently retired LEO cousin carries a glock 41. I had these set up with old guy defense in mind. Both in 45 colt.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by piller »

.45 Colt in a concealable revolver sounds good. It should be able to handle most interpersonal crisis situations.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by wolfdog »

I have had a couple of "big bore" carry revolvers one was an older Charter arms 44 bulldog(before the barrel under lug) that I shot thousands of rounds with without a hiccup, I had a 200 grain JHP load over Unique that was very accurate and effective on the pig I shot with it. Over was a Ruger 44 Blackhawk that I bought at a pawnshop for cheap. Someone who knew their stuff had cut the barrel down to the length of the ejector housing, made the sights and hammer more snag free, and put a Bisley style grip frame on it. Shot the same load as the Charter Arms very well but was a handful with full power loads. One firearm I really regret parting ways with as I will probably never see another like it. I also had a 2 5/8th inch Ruger Service 6 that I loved but loaned to a friend and she liked it so much I could never get it back. The only snub nose I have now is a Taurus Stainless M85 that I have about 1000 rounds downrange with no issues but most of those have been fairly light plinking loads with maybe 100 stout loads. I think I will look into the
Charter Arms 41 as I am a big fan of the 41 and was happy with the Bulldog.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by M. M. Wright »

Here's my old 1917, 45ACP. I use Wilson full moons because they work and lots others don't. I put the grips and Tyler T on it. Load is 200 grain XTP.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray »

Bill in Oregon wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:22 am
I've been intrigued by the Charter Arms Bulldog since first reading about them in a Gun Digest article from the 1970s. Only thing that has held me back was the indifferent quality control over the years. Seems like there have been good ones and bad ones. Which big-bore snubbies are you packing, Ray?
Chopped superblackhawk .....
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by guido4198 »

38 Sp. is sufficiently "Big Bore" for my concealed carry needs. I've found a Smith & Wesson 642 loaded with good quality +P ammo to be just about a perfect choice.
Slipped in a pocket, or carried in a Don Hume JIT it's the ONE that's on me all the time. I have lots of other choices, and if my state ever legalizes open carry, I'll change my EDC gun, but for now...the 642 makes the most sense because it's ON ME when I might need it and that makes it a better choice than the most awesome 20 shot tacti-cool guar-an-teed fight stopper I own...that's in a drawer at home.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by 2ndovc »

I carry the Speed Six and 442 quite often, but not as much as the 9mm Shield or the Sig 238. I pack the Officer's ACP a lot in the winter because I can hide it better, that or the S&W 610 go with me if I know I'm going to the East Side of Clev. for business. I haven't carried the Remington yet, haven't put enough rounds through it, but so far it's a good shooter and has fed everyting I've tried.

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Ray
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray »

Charter Magpug .41 waiting for daylight and his turn at the range.....
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wolfdog
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by wolfdog »

Definitely give range report, I for one am interested in getting one.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by GunnyMack »

Buddy of mine carried his 44 bulldog in a shoulder rig until he got a Glock 20. I carried a 7&1/2" SBH in a shoulder rig but it was hugely unpractical! Then I got my Glock 23. I'm not a fan of 9mm, but the 9 bullets have gotten better !
I made my Single Six .44 special with 4" barrel as a carry gun, it lived in my fishing vest as bear protection.
If I had my choice ( and I don't) to carry it might just by my Blackhawk 41 mag.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Jason, really liking that Speed Six, bro.
I took this path recently, but I have work to do. With a Lee 200-grain cast and 5.5 of Trailboss, it shoots at least a foot low at 10 yards, and I need to polish the chambers to get decent extraction. DA is a bit rough, but SA is outstanding.
Imagefullsizeoutput_1257 by ComeWatson, on Flickr
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Ray
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray »

Bill in Oregon wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:57 am
Jason, really liking that Speed Six, bro.
I took this path recently, but I have work to do. With a Lee 200-grain cast and 5.5 of Trailboss, it shoots at least a foot low at 10 yards, and I need to polish the chambers to get decent extraction. DA is a bit rough, but SA is outstanding.
Imagefullsizeoutput_1257 by ComeWatson, on Flickr
Billy, every bulldog i've tried shoots low. We elevate the front sight with roundballs and 160 to 200gr. bullets. The 240 and 246 gr. specials and russians shoot a bit higher. My son guesstimated how much front sight elevation he needed with 180 gr. hornadys and painted the front sight with white model paint from the top down to the point where the rear groove intersected for a repeatable sight picture.

These barely make 600 fps. but shoot to aim at 20 paces.

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Last edited by Ray on Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ray
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray »

wolfdog wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:16 am
Definitely give range report, I for one am interested in getting one.
It shoots....That's all I can say. I need to use a bigger target to see where i'm hitting. I was shooting at a beer can impaled on a sapling twig and did not even get close enough to scare it. Judging by the furrows plowed beneath, I was hitting quite low.

I had hoped that with the mild target loads I could replace the full rubber grip with banana peels from an older .38 but even the HSM 210 gr. cowboy loads were a handful.

May have to try these.....

https://choiceammunition.com/product/41 ... -cowboy-ch

510 fps. ! the specs. say.

.410" roundballs are backordered at track of the wolf.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Good to know, Ray. I still have some Starline .44 Russian brass left over from when I was running an open-top in that sweet caliber. I am familiar with the old rule of thumb about heavier bullets exiting the muzzle higher in the recoil arc, and am guessing that is very much in play with the Bulldog.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray »

hopefully lower recoil recipe for magpug......

starline .41 mag.

winchester wlp.....

1 cc (13 gr.) 2400......

.125" card down on powder......

.410" round ball down on card.....

smear of vaseline.......

.125" card over ball and just below case mouth.....

slight roll crimp over top card.....

your thoughts ???
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by HawkCreek »

I wish S&W would make something like their 686 L Comp is .45ACP
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by jeepnik »

Without a doubt, this is my favorite SBR (short barreled revolver).
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Old No7 »

30-30 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:04 pm
this is an interesting post... went to a LEO briefing last week, the topic was "reaction vs action" in a OIS (officer involved shooting). We talked about how one needs to be prepared mentally to exchange fire, especially during a traffic stop or a DV (domestic violence). We talked about a couple of ambush incidents that have taken place recently, which resulted in the death or the wounding of an LEO.

The FBI has recently determined that if you come under fire from an individual that your chances of hitting the suspect with return fire is 17% (reaction). The chances of the suspect (who initiated the attack) hitting you is 60% (action). We had an interesting discussion among 25 LEO's. We ended our discussion when an LEO, who is a retired Marine and combat veteran, reminded us that we should greet everyone with a smile, and have a plan to kill everyone we meet (in some ways good advise). Not sure if the Admin will allow this sort of tactical thinking within our policy manual.

I use to be a big revolver guy, especially snub-nose...but now I'm strictly an auto guy, simply due to the capacity and quick reloading ability of a semi-auto pistol... :)

WM is right on the money..."And finally shooting is a perishable skill. Practice it. Often." -- I practice with my hand-guns almost every week, even when it rains, snows, or is hot...

My always gun at this point is a S&W M&P Shield M2.0 in 9mm...w/ 2 spare mags...
Interesting info 30-30, but most of all...

BE SAFE out there -- And THANK YOU for your service.

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Re: Big Bore......

Post by piller »

In the Army, we were told that most people would shoot to miss rather than kill another human. That thinking must be trained out of you. Police officers need to be protected from spurious prosecution when they are on the job and must shoot a suspect. Yes, some of it is valid, but some is not. When a police officer hesitates and is killed, that is evidence in my opinion that the lawyers and liberals are to blame.
Rant mode off.

When possible, I carry something in a caliber starting with a 4 because it opens a larger hole. If it is necessary to shoot an attacker, then the largest hole I can make is better to save my life. I do not want to shoot anyone, but if I am attacked my life is top priority. I can perform CPR on the attacker when there is no way possible that he can continue the attack. If he bleeds to death before the ambulance arrives, it was his fault.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray Newman »

Back in the late 1980's two Lew Horton Specials crossed my path: 3" S&W 624, 44 Spec'l., 3" S&W 629 .44 mag. The 629 was nasty, very nasty, but tolerable loaded down to .44 Spec'l. velocities. The 624 was just fun to shoot.Would still have both, but a S&W collector just had to have them and I could not believe what he was willing to spend, so the two went home with him.

About the same time, a S&W Model of 1989, .45 ACP/Auto Rim arrived on the dealer's shelves. Gave myself a friction burn on my hand getting my wallet out. Still have it and it has been well tuned.

I found that big bore snub nosed revolvers are a bit much to carry concealed. I now carry a S&WM36, the Chief's Special.

Sometimes I wished that I still had the Lew Horton 624 as most were recalled and not many made. The few that I have seen command and sell for a high price. Another interesting snub nose is the S&W M15 2". Again 'sorta' hard to find.
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by wm »

I carry a Charter ARms 44 spl. Not everyday, but regularly.

I fear that often we let perfect become the enemy of good enough. Yes my revolver would be inadequate if I was facing a horde of (insert boogey men of your choice here …… terrorist, biker gang, demented nuns, zombies, whatever) but honestly that isn't likely to happen. What is likely to happen is me being in the wrong place, at the wrong time with a guy or two who mistake me for a easy victim. My revolver is up to that task of saving my butt IF I MAINTAIN MY SKILLS.

And make no bones about it, shooting a large bore accurately and well is a perishable skill.

Wm
Ray Newman
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray Newman »

Wm: well said!
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Grizz
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Grizz »

I don't consider 357 mag to be big bore, but Blaine and I were out plinking with my daughter's snubbie, which model I can't recall, but it's the one in the photo.... I had loaded some BTB 185gr bullets over LilGun for the Winchester carbine. I "think" that I "recall" the velocity from the carbine was 1700-ish, but my targets got filed somewhere else..... the idea was to get 30-30 like performance from the winchester.

Anyway I have some steel disks that I hang up, and both of us could ring them reliably with that 185gr load from the Smith. Not so far away, but at common deer encounter distance in Alaska. It was accurate to minute of deer. I was worried about cracking the forcing cone, but the gun survived. I wish I owned that one, but I don't. Not a big bore, but not boring either. :lol:

As far as accuracy goes, I never shot in on paper, but we had no difficulty hitting pop cans one morning when we found ourselves frozen into a little cove, in a multiuse recreational zone of a famous National Forest, shooting standard 158gr ammo.
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Ray
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Ray »

jeepnik wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:36 pm
Without a doubt, this is my favorite SBR (short barreled revolver).
Image


I've got one of those from back when cabela's clearanced the then current inventory for $99.99 and free shipping.
m.A.g.a. !
Bill in Oregon
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Re: Big Bore......

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Think I'd put the Navy grips on that cap and ball belly gun.
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