"Decoration Day" question

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Bill in Oregon
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"Decoration Day" question

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I just realized that I have helped place American flags on the graves of Confederate veterans along with all the other veterans in our local cemetery. The Decoration Day tradition of placing flowers on the graves of dead soldiers got much of its momentum from the women of the Old South honoring their slain from the very start of the Civil War. After the war, the Grand Army of the Republic -- a group of Union veterans -- carried the ball for making this a nationwide practice, and until the end of World War II it was mostly still known as Decoration Day.
Memorial Day as we know it today is meant to honor the memory and sacrifice of those who have fought and died for the United States. And yet, the Confederate States were a part of "this country" too. I feel it is right to honor their sacrifice for at least the "States' rights" principles they believed in,
Thoughts? I just haven't heard this question explored before. I wonder what my great-grandfather would have thought -- Third Wisconsin Cavalry. If you have seen the grainy old films of grizzled Civil War vets from both sides taking joy in each others' company, the question is certainly nuanced.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by AJMD429 »

I respect the soldiers who fought honorably on both sides of the U.S. Civil War, even if the motives of the political leadership (as usual) were impure.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by vancelw »

Confederates were true Patriots, fighting to stop the overreach of Federal authority.

The Grand Army of the Republic were Patriots, fighting to stop the dissolution of the USA.

I have ancestors that fought on both sides.

While both armies were victims of political spin doctors, they deserve to be honored for their commitment.

How many of us would March from Texas to Alabama or Pennsylvania, barefoot? I fear we will all wait too late.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by Blaine »

One of the earliest Decoration Days was in the South, but it was freed slaves honoring the graves of the Union Soldiers that freed them.
Slavery was dispicable, and if it took Federal Overreach to stop it then that's just fine with me.

https://www.history.com/news/memorial-d ... charleston
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by Bill in Oregon »

The history is complicated. Freed slaves did honor a number of Union dead in 1865. Slavery remains a horrible blot on our history.
I am still inclined to honor the sacrifice of both sides, which was very great. Like Vance, I had my Yankees from Wisconsin and my Rebs from Georgia risking their lives for their causes.



From Wikipedia:
The history of Memorial Day in the United States is so controversial that it constitutes an area of research. At Columbus [Georgia] State University there is a Center for Memorial Day Research.[5] It, together with the University of Mississippi's Center for Civil War Research,[6] are excellent starting points for investigating the topic.


1870 Decoration Day parade in St. Paul, Minnesota
The practice of decorating soldiers' graves with flowers is an ancient custom.[7] Soldiers' graves were decorated in the U.S. before[8] and during the American Civil War.

Some believe that an annual cemetery decoration practice began before the American Civil War and thus may reflect the real origin of the "memorial day" idea.[9] Annual Decoration Days for particular cemeteries are still held on a Sunday in late spring or early summer in some rural areas of the American South, notably in the mountain areas. In cases involving a family graveyard where remote ancestors, as well as those who died more recently, are buried, this may take on the character of an extended family reunion to which some people travel hundreds of miles. People gather, put flowers on graves, and renew contacts with relatives and others. There often is a religious service and a picnic-like "dinner on the grounds", the traditional term for a potluck meal at a church.[9]

On June 3, 1861, Warrenton, Virginia, was the location of the first Civil War soldier's grave ever to be decorated, according to a Richmond Times-Dispatch newspaper article in 1906.[10] In 1862, women in Savannah, Georgia decorated Confederate soldiers' graves according to the Savannah Republican.[11] The 1863 cemetery dedication at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, was a ceremony of commemoration at the graves of dead soldiers. Some have therefore claimed that Lincoln was the founder of Memorial Day.[12] On July 4, 1864, ladies decorated soldiers' graves according to local historians in Boalsburg, Pennsylvania.[13] Boalsburg promotes itself as the birthplace of Memorial Day.[14]

In April 1865, following President Abraham Lincoln's assassination, commemorations were widespread. The more than 600,000 soldiers of both sides who died in the Civil War meant that burial and memorialization took on new cultural significance. Under the leadership of women during the war, an increasingly formal practice of decorating graves had taken shape. In 1865, the federal government began creating national military cemeteries for the Union war dead.[15]

On May 1, 1865, in Charleston, South Carolina, recently freed African-Americans held a parade of 10,000 people to honor 257 dead Union Soldiers, whose remains they had reburied from a mass grave in a Confederate prison camp.[16] Historian David W. Blight cites contemporary news reports of this incident in the Charleston Daily Courier and the New-York Tribune. Although Blight claimed that "African Americans invented Memorial Day in Charleston, South Carolina",[17] in 2012, he stated that he "has no evidence" that the event in Charleston inspired the establishment of Memorial Day across the country.[18] Accordingly, investigators for Time Magazine, LiveScience, RealClearLife and Snopes have called this conclusion into question.[19][20][21][22]

By the 20th century, various Union memorial traditions, celebrated on different days, merged, and Memorial Day eventually extended to honor all Americans who died while in the U.S. military service.[1] On May 26, 1966, President Lyndon B. Johnson designated an "official" birthplace of the holiday by signing the presidential proclamation naming Waterloo, New York, as the holder of the title. This action followed House Concurrent Resolution 587, in which the 89th Congress had officially recognized that the patriotic tradition of observing Memorial Day had begun one hundred years prior in Waterloo, New York.[23] The village credits druggist Henry C. Welles and county clerk John B. Murray as the founders of the holiday. Scholars have determined that the Waterloo account is a myth.[19] Snopes and Live Science also discredit the Waterloo account.[24][25]
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by wm »

In my opinion peace and reconciliation that takes place after a civil war is very different then that which takes place between warring nations. While I would be very uncomfortable with a President honoring fallen soldiers of NAZI Germany or Imperial Japanese soldiers I find the idea of honoring Confederate soldiers much more understandable.

The Civil war was a conflict about two different visions for a future America that came from a shared history. Those visions were incompatible and one had to be suppressed but never the less they were both American visions of a future America. The Americans who share that now realized future can and should be able to look at both sides and see the good and bad while honoring the Americans who fought for their America.

Reconciliation is an ongoing process as is the perfectibility of America.

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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by JimT »

The Blue and the Gray
by Francis Miles Finch in 1867

By the flow of the inland river,
Whence the fleets of iron have fled,
Where the blades of the grave-grass quiver,
Asleep are the ranks of the dead:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Under the one, the Blue,
Under the other, the Gray
These in the robings of glory,
Those in the gloom of defeat,
All with the battle-blood gory,
In the dusk of eternity meet:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgement-day
Under the laurel, the Blue,
Under the willow, the Gray.

From the silence of sorrowful hours
The desolate mourners go,
Lovingly laden with flowers
Alike for the friend and the foe;
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgement-day;
Under the roses, the Blue,
Under the lilies, the Gray.

So with an equal splendor,
The morning sun-rays fall,
With a touch impartially tender,
On the blossoms blooming for all:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Broidered with gold, the Blue,
Mellowed with gold, the Gray.

So, when the summer calleth,
On forest and field of grain,
With an equal murmur falleth
The cooling drip of the rain:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment -day,
Wet with the rain, the Blue
Wet with the rain, the Gray.

Sadly, but not with upbraiding,
The generous deed was done,
In the storm of the years that are fading
No braver battle was won:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Under the blossoms, the Blue,
Under the garlands, the Gray

No more shall the war cry sever,
Or the winding rivers be red;
They banish our anger forever
When they laurel the graves of our dead!
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day,
Love and tears for the Blue,
Tears and love for the Gray.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by vancelw »

BlaineG wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:26 am One of the earliest Decoration Days was in the South, but it was freed slaves honoring the graves of the Union Soldiers that freed them.
Slavery was dispicable, and if it took Federal Overreach to stop it then that's just fine with me.

https://www.history.com/news/memorial-d ... charleston
A lot of people think guns are despicable.
I'm not fine with Federal overreach on any level
Rights not granted to the Federal government are reserved by the states.

Slavery was only one issue of the Civil War
It because a political tool late in the war to stop certain countries from siding with the south.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
Bill in Oregon
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Jim, thanks for posting that.

Here is the heart of it:

So with an equal splendor,
The morning sun-rays fall,
With a touch impartially tender,
On the blossoms blooming for all:
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by Blaine »

vancelw wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 pm
BlaineG wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:26 am One of the earliest Decoration Days was in the South, but it was freed slaves honoring the graves of the Union Soldiers that freed them.
Slavery was dispicable, and if it took Federal Overreach to stop it then that's just fine with me.

https://www.history.com/news/memorial-d ... charleston
A lot of people think guns are despicable.
I'm not fine with Federal overreach on any level
Rights not granted to the Federal government are reserved by the states.

Slavery was only one issue of the Civil War
It because a political tool late in the war to stop certain countries from siding with the south.
With that logic, then, Hitler's extermination of the Jews was of insufficient importance to have fought the war.
So, with that logic, it's perfectly fine for a state to override the 2nd Amendment?
So, with that logic, it's perfectly fine for a State to declare itself a sanctuary state and harbor criminals?
So, with that logic, it's just dandy for a state to approve of abortions up to the point where a healthy baby's head is sticking out in the air?
Wink/Wink Nod/Nod...yeah, the Confederates didn't care if we outlawed slavery. :lol:
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by piller »

If you do some research, you can find that the start of the War Between The States was over States Rights as reserved for them in The Constitution. Much as Ruby Ridge was about gunsmithing. The freeing of the slaves was the nuclear bomb option in that conflict. It was not even mentioned in the first 2 years.

Yes, Slavery was wrong. If you look at its roots in our Country, you will find the hand of Islam and the black on black crime starting it. Despicable!
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by vancelw »

BlaineG wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 1:53 pm
vancelw wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 pm
BlaineG wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:26 am One of the earliest Decoration Days was in the South, but it was freed slaves honoring the graves of the Union Soldiers that freed them.
Slavery was dispicable, and if it took Federal Overreach to stop it then that's just fine with me.

https://www.history.com/news/memorial-d ... charleston
A lot of people think guns are despicable.
I'm not fine with Federal overreach on any level
Rights not granted to the Federal government are reserved by the states.

Slavery was only one issue of the Civil War
It because a political tool late in the war to stop certain countries from siding with the south.
With that logic, then, Hitler's extermination of the Jews was of insufficient importance to have fought the war.
So, with that logic, it's perfectly fine for a state to override the 2nd Amendment?
So, with that logic, it's perfectly fine for a State to declare itself a sanctuary state and harbor criminals?
So, with that logic, it's just dandy for a state to approve of abortions up to the point where a healthy baby's head is sticking out in the air?
Wink/Wink Nod/Nod...yeah, the Confederates didn't care if we outlawed slavery. :lol:
You're arguing against yourself... :roll:

BTW, the world didn't know the extent of Hilter's holocaust until his army was in defeat.
Two millennia of Jewish persecution didn't get us involved in their protection.
To imply that we fought Hilter on the Jews' behalf is revisionist history.

And no..if the US constitution or its properly ratified amendments don't give a certain power to the Federal Government, it is reserved by the States.

Slavery is alive and well all over the world today, maybe not in such overt forms. (Ex: human trafficking, prostitution)
Ready to crusade against it, or are you okay with it since it's not in your backyard?
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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vancelw wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 am Slavery is alive and well all over the world today, maybe not in such overt forms. (Ex: human trafficking, prostitution)
Ready to crusade against it, or are you okay with it since it's not in your backyard?
But... it is.

:?
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by cas »

Unsettled history as to where it started.
https://youtu.be/lS1NyjidUnU
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by Tycer »

FWiedner wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 6:27 pm
vancelw wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 am Slavery is alive and well all over the world today, maybe not in such overt forms. (Ex: human trafficking, prostitution)
Ready to crusade against it, or are you okay with it since it's not in your backyard?
But... it is.

:?
Human trade or debt?
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by Blaine »

And no..if the US constitution or its properly ratified amendments don't give a certain power to the Federal Government, it is reserved by the States.
Ok....And, I agree. But: The Constitution begins by saying that all men are created equal, and are endowed with certain steadfast rights, and I don't think that you could read the Bill of Rights and NOT see that involuntary servitude, slavery, is forbidden. Unless, of course, you buy into that wonderful, old Southern Democrat idea that Blacks were not really men. :roll:
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by vancelw »

BlaineG wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:38 pm
And no..if the US constitution or its properly ratified amendments don't give a certain power to the Federal Government, it is reserved by the States.
Ok....And, I agree. But: The Constitution begins by saying that all men are created equal, and are endowed with certain steadfast rights, and I don't think that you could read the Bill of Rights and NOT see that involuntary servitude, slavery, is forbidden. Unless, of course, you buy into that wonderful, old Southern Democrat idea that Blacks were not really men. :roll:
More revisionist history. :roll:
Slavery was a world wide institution.
It was accepted every where. Read your bible.
No one on this forum has said slavery was right or defended it. That's in your mind.
But, it was not the root cause of the Civil War.
And it is not why Patriots fought in that war to defend their homeland.
Like I said, I had family on high sides
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by wm »

BlaineG wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:38 pm
And no..if the US constitution or its properly ratified amendments don't give a certain power to the Federal Government, it is reserved by the States.
Ok....And, I agree. But: The Constitution begins by saying that all men are created equal, and are endowed with certain steadfast rights, and I don't think that you could read the Bill of Rights and NOT see that involuntary servitude, slavery, is forbidden. Unless, of course, you buy into that wonderful, old Southern Democrat idea that Blacks were not really men. :roll:
+1

Jefferson Davis said Slavery was the reason.

“African servitude at that time was not confined to a section, but was numerically greater in the South than in the North, with a tendency to its continuance in the former and cessation in the latter. It therefore thus early presents itself as a disturbing element, and the provisions of the Constitution, which were known to be necessary for its adoption, bound all the states to recognize and protect that species of property. When at a subsequent period there arose in the Northern states an anti-slavery agitation, it was a harmless and scarcely noticed movement until political demagogues seized upon it as a means to acquire power. Had it been left to pseudo-philanthropists and fanatics, most zealous where least informed, it never could have shaken the foundations of the Union and have incited one section to carry fire and sword to the other.”
The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government by Jefferson Davis


Georgia specifically cited its reason for leaving the union to be slavery in its declaration of cause for withdrawal from the Union.

“Our Northern confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts, after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large majority committed the Government of the United States into their hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state. The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution.”

As did South Carolina, Mississippi, and Louisiana.

It was simply a matter of economic interest in the South. Their agriculture relied heavily on slave labor and deprived of it they felt their economy would collapse.

Wm
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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It was accepted every where..
Everywhere didn't have our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Try again. All a steer can do is try. :lol:
:evil: This country had very selective Constitutionalism back before the '60s. Prove me wrong.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by wm »

BlaineG wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:15 pm
It was accepted every where..
Everywhere didn't have our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Try again. All a steer can do is try. :lol:
Great Britain abolished slavery in England in 1808 & throughout the British Empire with the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, the France & French colonies abolished it in 1848, Denmark in 1803, Spain in 1811 (though colonies in Cuba and Puerto Rico maintained slavery because of lucrative trade with involving the US), Sweden and Netherlands made any involvement in the slave trade illegal (shipping, finance, etc) in 1819, Portugal banned slavery in Portugal in 1819, and in its colonies in 1858, except for Brazil who banned it in 1851.

Starting in 1808 British navy established a squadron of ships permanently on patrol off of the coast of West Africa to impede and stop the slave trade.

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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by wm »

Toledo Ohio is one of the 'hot spots' of human trafficking in the United States according to FBI.

It is in our backyard.

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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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wm wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:37 pm
BlaineG wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:15 pm
It was accepted every where..
Everywhere didn't have our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Try again. All a steer can do is try. :lol:
Great Britain abolished slavery in England in 1808 & throughout the British Empire with the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, the France & French colonies abolished it in 1848, Denmark in 1803, Spain in 1811 (though colonies in Cuba and Puerto Rico maintained slavery because of lucrative trade with involving the US), Sweden and Netherlands made any involvement in the slave trade illegal (shipping, finance, etc) in 1819, Portugal banned slavery in Portugal in 1819, and in its colonies in 1858, except for Brazil who banned it in 1851.

Starting in 1808 British navy established a squadron of ships permanently on patrol off of the coast of West Africa to impede and stop the slave trade.

Wm
FWIW, the USA abolished the importation of new Slaves in 1807. Didn't do much good. I was never much impressed by Brittish treatment of peoples in their Empire. Even the White Boers were treated like cattle. The Irish were probably treated worse than Blacks.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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The Irish slaves were treated much worse than the black slaves here in the U.S., particularly in the Northern States. Read your history.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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piller wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:16 pm The Irish slaves were treated much worse than the black slaves here in the U.S., particularly in the Northern States. Read your history.
I can read just fine. The Irish, while treated very badly, were not owned and not slaves. Indentured servants were abused very badly, tho. Read your history.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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Actually, they were owned more than indentured. Indentured was made illegal long before the war between the states.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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Chattel slavery was not abolished by law in Brazil until 1888 and persisted illegally until at least 1896.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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BlaineG wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:59 pm
piller wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:16 pm The Irish slaves were treated much worse than the black slaves here in the U.S., particularly in the Northern States. Read your history.
I can read just fine. The Irish, while treated very badly, were not owned and not slaves. Indentured servants were abused very badly, tho. Read your history.
Comprehension seems to be the issue.

Confederate soldiers were Patriots.
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

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vancelw wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:10 am
BlaineG wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:59 pm
piller wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:16 pm The Irish slaves were treated much worse than the black slaves here in the U.S., particularly in the Northern States. Read your history.
I can read just fine. The Irish, while treated very badly, were not owned and not slaves. Indentured servants were abused very badly, tho. Read your history.
Comprehension seems to be the issue.

Confederate soldiers were Patriots.
I agree...you should sue your ESL coach. :P
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Re: "Decoration Day" question

Post by piller »

ESL---Extremely Specialized Literature, as in works by Levin, Frost, and John Roberts?
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
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