44-40 vs 30-30

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Bryan Austin
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44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Bryan Austin »

On a side note;

Grab some popcorn!

"The Winchester bore diameter is .429. All available soft points are about .424. One shooter gets finest results by swaging .424 bullets to .429 for Winchester rifles. Remington and Marlin rifles measure .424, therefore factory bullets are satisfactory in those barrels. Properly loaded, this cartridge has more knockdown powder than a .30-.30" ~ Sharpe - 1937

Although I have measured old 1920's JSP bullets to be .4255 to .426, I have measured some older dissected swaged bullets as small as .422, so I think there is some Merritt in what Sharpe says. I 100% agree with the 30-30 remark BUT only for closer distance shooting, I would prefer the 30-30 if it meant going hungry if I missed a deer with the shot at greater distances of 150 yards.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Grizz »

interesting.

I don't see anything about bullet weights. So kinda hard to evaluate this. But past 150 yards I'd need to get closer, or have optics, eh?
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by J Miller »

The old lead bullets were hollow based and would expand to seal the bore when fired. I have read that jacketed bullets for the 44 W.C.F. have fairly thin jackets and expand easily, I do however forget where I read that.

As for the 44 having more knockdown power than a 30-30 ...... I don't know.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Old Savage »

Can't agree with Sharpe.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by AJMD429 »

Either will do (30-30 's 44-40) if you are good at range estimation and have good sights and a steady aim.

As far as bullet diameter, couldn't you use some of the many available 44 Mag bullets for the 'oversized' 0.429" bores...?
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by M. M. Wright »

I am a proponent of the 44-40 and own a slew of them. A couple of years ago I decided that I wanted a 73 SRC for my every day companion so I found one from 1895 that could be refurbed to usefulness. After I got it shooting the barrel was slugged and it is .431. Too big I thought so I found another barrel that was in better condition. It too slugs .431 so I bought a new Miroku and it slugs .431. You should know that I have several mikes that are certified by North American Testing Lab so the measurements are accurate. No problem for me, I just hone out a mould to throw a .431or .432 bullet and pan lube them, shooting them as cast. Problem solved? Not on your life. These rounds won't chamber in my Colt SAAs so instead of having a pistol and rifle shooting the same round, I have to carry two different loads and keep them separated. PITA Anyone else have old Winchesters in 44 WCF that slug .431? Oh yeah, .429 lead bullets don't shoot worth a flip but jacketed aren't too bad. The 2 Uberti 44-40s I have slug .429. I can just barely get a .429 bullet loaded into a Winchester case to chamber in the old Colts. Sorry for the thread drift. None of these problems exist with the 30-30. Does a lead bullet and black powder make them more equal? I think it does. 200 grain bullet in the 44 and 190? in the 30. Case full of ffg in either should give about equal results.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Ray »

Me......30 W.C.F. but here is another opinion.

E.N. Woodcock 1913..... Winchester 1873 versus Savage 1899.

I have read with interest the discussion of the many different makes of guns, the different calibers for large game hunting, etc., and as I am not well up on "gunology," I have listened and wondered why there was so much agitation on the gun question. I believe that nearly all of the modern guns that are manufactured today are good--at least sufficiently good shooters for all practical purposes. Shotguns can be bought at $3.00 or $4.00 that do good work. Perhaps there is not a man in the country who has carried a gun as many days as the writer, but what has done more target shooting than I have.

Back in the 70's when men hunted deer in this section for the money that was in it, I often did not take my rifle down to shoot from one season's hunting to the next, unless by chance something in the way of game came into fields near the house. I was always in love with my gun and if I did not like it I would get rid of it at the first opportunity. I am still of the opinion that a gun is similar to a man's wife, you must love them in order to get the best results.

I always wanted as good a gun as there was on the market. By this I do not mean the highest priced, nor the highest power gun, but the gun that would do the business. A man by the name of Orlando Reese and I were the first to buy Winchester rifles in this section, and I think in this county. The guns were the common round barrel .44 caliber and we paid $60.00 apiece for them. The same kind of a gun can now, I think, be bought for $12.00 or $14.00. Previous to the time I bought the Winchester, I had been using a Henry rifle for a time, but it was not a good gun for hunting purposes. A few years later the .45-75 Winchester came into use, so I sold my .44 and bought a .45-75. I did not like it so I sold it and bought a Colts, which was a good gun, but one day I was doing some fast work on a bunch of deer and in my haste I did not work the lever just as I should and it jammed. This made me rather angry, so I sold it and got another .44 Winchester, which I used for a long time, but I disposed of it very unexpectedly.

I was coming out from camp after a new stock of provisions. My partner, Amersley Ball, was with me. We had not gone far after getting in the wagon road when we met a man by the name of Lyman who was on his way to the Cross Fork of Kettle Creek, for the purpose of inspecting the timber lands and wanted a gun to carry with him. Before Mr. Lyman was hardly in speaking distance he yelled at me and asked what I would take for my gun. Thinking that he was only joking I said $40.00.

Mr. Lyman came up to me, took my gun from my shoulders, looked at it and asked me if it was alright. I replied that if it was not I would not be carrying it.

Mr. Lyman replied, "I guess that is right," and taking a check from his pocket dropped down on one knee, filled it out for forty dollars and handed it to me, so I was without a gun right in the midst of the hunting season.

My protest was of no use, as Mr. Lyman took the gun and went his way, laughing at me. I received a little more for the gun than the usual price at the time, but there was no dealer at our place who kept the Winchester in stock. The dealers were always obliging and would take your order and get you a gun for a small profit of about sixteen dollars. I had no time to wait for a gun to be ordered, so I began to look about to find some one who had a gun for sale. Mr. Wm. Thompson, the publisher of a local newspaper in our place had bought a new .38 caliber Winchester to use in his annual outing and said that he would have no further use for a gun until another season that if I would give him $35.00, I could have his gun. I gave Mr. Thompson the money and the next morning we went back to camp.

After we had arrived at camp, I crossed the divide from the Sinnemahoning side of the Pine Creek side to hunt. I had not gone far after reaching Pine Creek before I struck the trail of five or six deer. After following the trail a ways I concluded that the deer would pass around the point of the ridge and pass through a hardwood balsam on the other side of the ridge.

I climbed the hill and made for the balsam in hope to head the deer off. I had only reached the brow of the hill so that I could look into the basin when I saw the deer. I thought to myself, there is a good chance to try my new gun, for I had not yet shot it. I drew on a large doe that was in the lead of the bunch and cut loose. The doe made a leap into the air, made a jump or two down the hill and went down, while the rest of the deer made two or three jumps up the hill towards me and stopped and looked back down the hill in the direction of the doe that I had shot. I pulled onto the shoulders of a buck, the largest deer of the bunch, who gave his tail a switch or two, wheeled, made a few jumps down the hill and fell, while the rest of the bunch made a lively break for other parts. I continued to scatter lead as long as I could see them.

I ran down to the deer that I had killed, cut their throats, removed their entrails, climbed some saplings, bent them down, cut off the tops and hung the deer on them. Getting a pole with a crotch at the end to place under the sapling, I pulled the deer up the best that I could and started on the trail of the others. I did not follow the trail long when I saw one of them had a broken leg. The deer with the broken leg soon dropped out from the others and went down the hill, crossed the hollow and went into a thick hemlock timber and laurel.

As it was nearly night, I left the trail and went home to camp. The next morning, Mr. Ball went with me to help get the wounded deer. We did not follow the trail far until we saw the deer fixing to lie down. I backed up and went up the hill above where we thought the deer might be lying. While Mr. Ball waited for me to give the signal to come. Mr. Ball had not gone far after I had howled, letting him know that I was ready, when out of the laurel came the deer. Mr. Ball was close, so that we both got a shot, killing the deer almost before it was on its feet.

Now I was so infatuated with my new gun, that it was a case of love at first sight. This was in the late 70's. I have used several different makes of guns. I also had a .30-30 Savage, which I considered a good gun for big game, and in fact, I can say that the most of the guns that I have tried were all good. I however am still married to my little .38 Winchester. I can say that in all these, considerable more than thirty years, I have never run up against a subject but that this little Winchester was equal to the emergency.

Now I wish to ask, why it is that a hunter cares for a high power gun that will shoot into the next township and kill a man or a horse that the hunter was not aware of existing, when a gun of less power will do just as good execution in deer hunting? The ammunition for the gun of lower power costs much less and there is far less danger in killing a man or beast a mile away. We hear men talk of shooting deer 200 and even 300 yards. In the many years that I have hunted deer, I believe that I have killed two deer at a distance of from 50 to 75 yards, to one a distance of 100 or 150. I believe most deer hunters will agree that there are far more deer killed at a distance of 50 or 60 yards than over that distance. I think that if those hunters who kill deer at a distance of 100 or 200 yards will take the trouble to step off the distance of their long shots, instead of estimating them, they will find that 100 yards in timber is a long ways. Yes, boys, 20 rods through the timber is a long ways to shoot a deer. Why? Because the deer can not often be seen at a greater distance, where there would be any use of shooting at all, and the little .38 will do all of that and more too.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by piller »

I like my 30-30, but I have no experience with the .44-40 or the .38-40. All I can speak about is that the .30-30 is a good cartridge and still works for most game that I am likely to encounter.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Carlsen Highway »

I have read about that guy before - I think he was market hunting with a .38-40 in a Winchester 73.

I have shot deer with the .44-40 and black powder with lead bullets. (And smokeless) All at the 19th century velocity of around 1200-1300 fps. All the deer died (red deer - about the size of a mule deer or a small elk) none went more than twenty yards. All of the shots were around 75 yards except for one that was about 20 yards. All were complete pass throughs. The wound channels from what I could observe were thin and the .430 pure lead bullets punched through and kept going. I did not hit any major bones, except for the 20 yard shot which was a neck shot (did not pass through the spine).

I have a high velocity load with 200 grain XTP's (1650fps) but have not shot a deer with this load.

I have shot many of these deer with the .30/30 as well, almost all with the 150 grain bullet, at the same kind of ranges. I cannot see any real difference between what the .30/30 bullet does at these ranges and a .308 or a .303 Lee Enfield to be honest. The last deer I shot with a .30/30 was quartering angle I shot it in the front side and the bullet penetrated on a medium size hind (mature mule deer size I think) and ruined a rear haunch.
I have caught .30-30 bullets in deer (150 Hornady or 150 grain Power Points) all expanded nicely. I don't expect to ever get a .44-40 lead bullet back unless I hit a major bone.

My conclusion is that the .44-40 is a much better killer than any would imagine looking at numbers on a piece of paper. I would also count the .30/30 as a much superior cartridge. I might be better informed if I shot the .44-40 with modern jacketed bullets like the XTP though.

The lesson here I suppose is that deer, even big ones, are not particularly hard to kill if you shoot them in the right place. And if you shoot them in the wrong place it doesn't matter how powerful your cartridge is.

None of this has any bearing on whether I choose my .44-40 or my .30-30 (or my .32 Special) when I go hunting.

The difference in what rifle I choose nowadays is almost entirely dependant on whether I feel like hunting with a scope or not on that trip.
Last edited by Carlsen Highway on Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Carlsen Highway »

M. M. Wright wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:02 pm I am a proponent of the 44-40 and own a slew of them. A couple of years ago I decided that I wanted a 73 SRC for my every day companion so I found one from 1895 that could be refurbed to usefulness. After I got it shooting the barrel was slugged and it is .431. Too big I thought so I found another barrel that was in better condition. It too slugs .431 so I bought a new Miroku and it slugs .431. You should know that I have several mikes that are certified by North American Testing Lab so the measurements are accurate. No problem for me, I just hone out a mould to throw a .431or .432 bullet and pan lube them, shooting them as cast. Problem solved? Not on your life. These rounds won't chamber in my Colt SAAs so instead of having a pistol and rifle shooting the same round, I have to carry two different loads and keep them separated. PITA Anyone else have old Winchesters in 44 WCF that slug .431? Oh yeah, .429 lead bullets don't shoot worth a flip but jacketed aren't too bad. The 2 Uberti 44-40s I have slug .429. I can just barely get a .429 bullet loaded into a Winchester case to chamber in the old Colts. Sorry for the thread drift. None of these problems exist with the 30-30. Does a lead bullet and black powder make them more equal? I think it does. 200 grain bullet in the 44 and 190? in the 30. Case full of ffg in either should give about equal results.
Mr Wright,

My experiments in the .44-40 showed that a pure lead bullet, (or a lead bullet with 2% tin) would bump up enough to shoot well in an oversized bore, if you used black powder. The sharper ignition bumps up the bullet to fill the bore. A .428 bullet will shoot well in a .431 bore.
This is why the Winchester bore sizes were all over the place in the black powder days - it wasn't critical. Winchester factory .44 WCF was loaded with pure lead bullets. You may be aware of this already and prefer to not use black powder, but I mention it in case.

The writer in the OP, writing in 1937, may have been comparing the .44 WCF 200 grain high velocity jacketed load (1500 fps) and the .30-30 160 grain jacketed (1950 fps). At 50 or 75 yards you may well argue the point on which would do more damage, between these two loads.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Old Savage »

At what has been described Sharpe is right I would imagine. In my mind I was thinking of western hunting where distances can easily be 200-300 yds.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Great thread, gentlemen. Ray, thank you for posting that .38-40 memoir.
Beyond about 100 yards, I'd take the .30 WCF for the flatter trajectory and retained energy. Teddy Roosevelt thought that it was a relative laser.
Look forward to working with the .44 WCF.
Last edited by Bill in Oregon on Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by M. M. Wright »

Carlsen Highway wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:58 pm
M. M. Wright wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:02 pm I am a proponent of the 44-40 and own a slew of them. A couple of years ago I decided that I wanted a 73 SRC for my every day companion so I found one from 1895 that could be refurbed to usefulness. After I got it shooting the barrel was slugged and it is .431. Too big I thought so I found another barrel that was in better condition. It too slugs .431 so I bought a new Miroku and it slugs .431. You should know that I have several mikes that are certified by North American Testing Lab so the measurements are accurate. No problem for me, I just hone out a mould to throw a .431or .432 bullet and pan lube them, shooting them as cast. Problem solved? Not on your life. These rounds won't chamber in my Colt SAAs so instead of having a pistol and rifle shooting the same round, I have to carry two different loads and keep them separated. PITA Anyone else have old Winchesters in 44 WCF that slug .431? Oh yeah, .429 lead bullets don't shoot worth a flip but jacketed aren't too bad. The 2 Uberti 44-40s I have slug .429. I can just barely get a .429 bullet loaded into a Winchester case to chamber in the old Colts. Sorry for the thread drift. None of these problems exist with the 30-30. Does a lead bullet and black powder make them more equal? I think it does. 200 grain bullet in the 44 and 190? in the 30. Case full of ffg in either should give about equal results.
Mr Wright,

My experiments in the .44-40 showed that a pure lead bullet, (or a lead bullet with 2% tin) would bump up enough to shoot well in an oversized bore, if you used black powder. The sharper ignition bumps up the bullet to fill the bore. A .428 bullet will shoot well in a .431 bore.
This is why the Winchester bore sizes were all over the place in the black powder days - it wasn't critical. Winchester factory .44 WCF was loaded with pure lead bullets. You may be aware of this already and prefer to not use black powder, but I mention it in case.

The writer in the OP, writing in 1937, may have been comparing the .44 WCF 200 grain high velocity jacketed load (1500 fps) and the .30-30 160 grain jacketed (1950 fps). At 50 or 75 yards you may well argue the point on which would do more damage, between these two loads.
Yeah, you're right. My bullets are probably too hard to bump up on firing. 20:1 or 30:1. I mostly use the 20:1 for cowboy shooting and the 30:1 for hunting and I mostly use black powder. I used to order it in 50 lb. quantities but am no longer able to go cowboy shooting, SASS is my game but knees are keeping me away. I guess I can open up the throats on a couple of my Colts so they can be loaded with larger diameter bullets but sometimes like to strap on a pair of early first gen Colts and load them up with ffg. Hate to alter any of those.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

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OK, I know little about casting, but shouldn't there be a way of casting bullets with a base that is indented so that it would bump up to seal within a reasonable amount? The same idea was used during the war between the states. Soft lead in sort of a Minie ball shape has earned a reputation for being lethal. How hard is it to cast at home? At low to moderate velocities it shouldn't need a gas check. I am not thinking about modern smokeless velocities, but rather the original black powder velocities.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by gundownunder »

Pillar, the mold you are thinking of is a nose pour mold. I've never used one but have read they are a bit more demanding to work with than a base pour mold. Not sure if anyone offers them as a standard line or if you would need to order a custom job.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by M. M. Wright »

I'm quite familiar with hollow base bullets as I have a 41 Colt that I cast and load for. It does remarkably well at 15 to 25 yards which is where I've used it. The mold requires a separate piece be placed into the bottom of the mold before each pore to form the hollow base. It's a pain but it works and gets me out of working with heeled bullets. And I don't shoot it a lot since I got it figured out.

Maybe I'll just have the 73 SRC's barrel relined with the same bore as my Colts. If I had known all these Winchesters had oversize bores I would have found a Uberti instead. Maybe some trading is called for but I already have a 20" octagon Uberti in 44-40. It's just not a SRC like I want.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Carlsen Highway »

piller wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:30 am OK, I know little about casting, but shouldn't there be a way of casting bullets with a base that is indented so that it would bump up to seal within a reasonable amount? The same idea was used during the war between the states. Soft lead in sort of a Minie ball shape has earned a reputation for being lethal. How hard is it to cast at home? At low to moderate velocities it shouldn't need a gas check. I am not thinking about modern smokeless velocities, but rather the original black powder velocities.
Those balls were also made of pure soft lead - the hollow base was to solve a different problem - to enable soldiers to load multiple times through the fouling the bore - so the bullet or miie ball is loose to ram down easily, and then has the hollow in the base to blow out the skirt and engage the rifling on the way out.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Carlsen Highway »

M. M. Wright wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:53 am
Carlsen Highway wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:58 pm
M. M. Wright wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:02 pm I am a proponent of the 44-40 and own a slew of them. A couple of years ago I decided that I wanted a 73 SRC for my every day companion so I found one from 1895 that could be refurbed to usefulness. After I got it shooting the barrel was slugged and it is .431. Too big I thought so I found another barrel that was in better condition. It too slugs .431 so I bought a new Miroku and it slugs .431. You should know that I have several mikes that are certified by North American Testing Lab so the measurements are accurate. No problem for me, I just hone out a mould to throw a .431or .432 bullet and pan lube them, shooting them as cast. Problem solved? Not on your life. These rounds won't chamber in my Colt SAAs so instead of having a pistol and rifle shooting the same round, I have to carry two different loads and keep them separated. PITA Anyone else have old Winchesters in 44 WCF that slug .431? Oh yeah, .429 lead bullets don't shoot worth a flip but jacketed aren't too bad. The 2 Uberti 44-40s I have slug .429. I can just barely get a .429 bullet loaded into a Winchester case to chamber in the old Colts. Sorry for the thread drift. None of these problems exist with the 30-30. Does a lead bullet and black powder make them more equal? I think it does. 200 grain bullet in the 44 and 190? in the 30. Case full of ffg in either should give about equal results.
Mr Wright,

My experiments in the .44-40 showed that a pure lead bullet, (or a lead bullet with 2% tin) would bump up enough to shoot well in an oversized bore, if you used black powder. The sharper ignition bumps up the bullet to fill the bore. A .428 bullet will shoot well in a .431 bore.
This is why the Winchester bore sizes were all over the place in the black powder days - it wasn't critical. Winchester factory .44 WCF was loaded with pure lead bullets. You may be aware of this already and prefer to not use black powder, but I mention it in case.

The writer in the OP, writing in 1937, may have been comparing the .44 WCF 200 grain high velocity jacketed load (1500 fps) and the .30-30 160 grain jacketed (1950 fps). At 50 or 75 yards you may well argue the point on which would do more damage, between these two loads.
Yeah, you're right. My bullets are probably too hard to bump up on firing. 20:1 or 30:1. I mostly use the 20:1 for cowboy shooting and the 30:1 for hunting and I mostly use black powder. I used to order it in 50 lb. quantities but am no longer able to go cowboy shooting, SASS is my game but knees are keeping me away. I guess I can open up the throats on a couple of my Colts so they can be loaded with larger diameter bullets but sometimes like to strap on a pair of early first gen Colts and load them up with ffg. Hate to alter any of those.

If you are already using black powder, I would recommend try casting some bullets in pure lead, with a dash of tin added - as little as 1% will do just to make nice bullets - and load and try them. I am virtually certain this will cure this issue you have and you will be able to use them in any of your .44 WCF firearms. 50:1 will do just fine for hunting too, as I have proved to my complete satisfaction. (Winchester factory loaded the .44 WCF with pure lead bullets, although they recommended up to 20:1 alloys with larger calibers.)
John Kort tried the same thing as me and he got similiar results with an original '73 with a bore that slugged .434. He got a decent group of five shots at 50 yards into less than two inches (cant remember exactly) with .428 pure lead bullets/1 % tin. I was shooting .428 bullets in a .430 Uberti '73 and shooting 1.5 inch groups at 55 yards.

I stopped worrying about penetration with soft lead bullets after I tried to catch one in some water jugs. The penetration of a .44-40 lead bullet at 1200fps (black powder) out penetrated a .270 by half as much again and I can't prove that bullet is not still going in a northerly direction now. Its blew up the first jug, and punched a little .430 hole horizontally in the next five. A .270 will stop in three.
I took the same experiment into the field and shot some deer with my Uberti and stopped considering harder alloys when I got exit holes in all of them.

I will change alloys when I am going for accuracy - my best load for accuracy in a .44-40 is 6 grains of 4227 priming under 32 grains of 3FFF, compressed 0.2 of an inch, and loaded with the same bullet I normally use, but cast 20:1. (Which makes a .432 bullet - this will chamber in my Uberti but not my Rossi 92.)
I was shooting 1.5 inch five shot groups at 100 metres with this load, and standard factory sights.

Sorry I get to talking a lot when the .44-40 comes up. Its my favourite cartridge. I just loaded up some 250 grain FJP bullets because the place I am going next has got elk in it. Yeah, I know. Little gun. Big deer. It's just how I am made. It's not an adventure unless I can take my .44 carbine with me.
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Carlsen: Always love to hear you and Savvy Jack talk about the .44 WCF. Please don't stop.
JB
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by JB »

I have a 44-40 and enjoy shooting it, but the 30-30 is much better deer hunting round in my opinion. Much flatter shooting.
Larkbill
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Larkbill »

At the ranges we see deer at the farm based on this I may leave the 30 WCF in the car and shoot the Colt 45.
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Larkbill »

At the ranges we see deer at the farm based on this I may leave the 30 WCF in the car and shoot the Colt 45.
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Bryan Austin
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by Bryan Austin »

I may have missed someone commenting.... but Sharpe actually seems to contradict himself. He immediately claims it is not sufficient for deer. Then turns right around a few sentences down and claims it is more powerful (knockdown power wise) than the 30-30 when properly loaded....with no further explanation.
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KWK
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Re: 44-40 vs 30-30

Post by KWK »

Perhaps Sharpe was talking about the original loads as compared to the later, "high velocity" smokeless loads. Whelen's WW-I era book said the 1300 fps BP load could be used on deer, but the 1600 fps smokeless load was a big step up in performance.
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