A Biblical Conflict?

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BlaineG
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A Biblical Conflict?

#1 Post by BlaineG » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:04 pm

It was made pretty clear, more than once in the Bible, that Israel and the Jews are God's chosen people. But, according to the NT, only Christians may enter heaven. Just something that makes me go Hmmmmmm. Any thoughts on the matter?
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#2 Post by JimT » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:40 pm

I don't recall any place that says one must be a "christian" in order to go to heaven. The only place I remember where the word "christian" is used in in the Book of Acts, talking about what followers of Jesus were called in a certain city. Jesus did say that He was the only way to the Father, and He spoke about the need of believing in Him, but He never said anything about being a "christian."

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#3 Post by BlaineG » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:41 pm

JimT wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:40 pm
I don't recall any place that says one must be a "christian" in order to go to heaven. The only place I remember where the word "christian" is used in in the Book of Acts, talking about what followers of Jesus were called in a certain city. Jesus did say that He was the only way to the Father, and He spoke about the need of believing in Him, but He never said anything about being a "christian."
THAT is something I never realized. Makes sense. Might be hope for me yet. :wink:
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#4 Post by 765x53 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:31 pm

When considering the Jew's chosen status, think of the iconic poster of Uncle Sam. That kind of chosen.
Jews were chosen to be God's light in the World. They were chosen to bring God's light to all the World and, they did.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#5 Post by Old Savage » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:05 pm

Israel and the Jews are not synonymous terms.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#6 Post by Trailboss » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:33 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:04 pm
It was made pretty clear, more than once in the Bible, that Israel and the Jews are God's chosen people. But, according to the NT, only Christians may enter heaven. Just something that makes me go Hmmmmmm. Any thoughts on the matter?
Blaine, in the book of Genesis, God made a promise to Abraham and Abraham believed God. Because Abraham believed in the promise, God declared Abraham to be righteous in His eyes. This was seen as Abraham's ticket into Heaven. It was an event that opened the door to Heaven to all those who believed in the promise. Thousands of years passed before Jewish scholars realized that the name of the promise was to be Jesus. This happened approximately 400 years before the birth of Jesus as followed by many. Many Jewish scholars recognized that Jesus the Christ was a fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham (we call them Messianic Jewish Christians) . Many non-Jewish people also recognized the same (we call them Christians). Both groups get a pass to Heaven based on belief in a promise made to Abraham by God.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#7 Post by piller » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:36 pm

Palm Sunday is tomorrow. The start of one of the most important times in human history. No other man ever changed the world by giving his life to save so many from the consequences of their own actions on such a scale. I believe.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#8 Post by FWiedner » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:45 pm

.

Our Jewish brothers WROTE the Bible...

Whom would you expect them to declare as 'Chosen"?

:roll: :lol:
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#9 Post by Camel73 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:00 pm

The way I understand it the Jews were the original believers, but refuse to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#10 Post by wm » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm

Meh … I never concern myself with such matters. I grew up Roman Catholic in a nearly entirely Polish Catholic congregation (St. Stanislaus Kostka) during the late 70s & early 80s (a time of great surge in pride among Polish Catholics as we had a Polish Pope and the Solidarity movement in Poland) and a lot of the judgementalism of the time turned me off. My view is God has judgement well with in his hands. Jesus was pretty clear in his message of being kind, forgiving, and helpful. The Holy Spirit whispers encouragement and inspiration to me on occasion.

I'll leave judging others to the Almighty. I'll stay busy trying to live up to what I feel is right and just.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#11 Post by AJMD429 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:18 pm

wm wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:02 pm
Jesus was pretty clear in his message of being kind, forgiving, and helpful. The Holy Spirit whispers encouragement and inspiration to me on occasion.

I'll leave judging others to the Almighty. I'll stay busy trying to live up to what I feel is right and just.
Same here.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#12 Post by 6pt-sika » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:44 pm

I made it thru the first 17 years of life alright with my religion .

Then I took an Eastern Civilization class in my second year of college . One of the "textbooks" was the New Testament , and we were instructed to read as written as in any other textbook . That class screwed up my head for awhile as far as religion was concerned . And as one of my fathers now deceased friends used to say I had turned into a philosopher whether I cared to be or not . Over time I've evolved back to a place where I'm comfortable with Christianity and I suppose that can be attributed to my wife .
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#13 Post by BlaineG » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:44 pm

The simpler I keep it, the more sense it makes to me. Men have no doubt changed the meaning of so much of the original meaning of His Love. I opine that the OT message of Rule and Law and smiteing were put in place for survival. One example would be the Kosher Rules. They prevented death from food poisoning, which was no doubt God's Punishment for breaking the Law.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#14 Post by 6pt-sika » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:13 pm

I grew up in a Methodist household not hardcore but Methodist none the less and I suppose you could say I still am if I must pick a Christian denomination. I have however come to truely believe two things as far as ANY religions are concerned . The first and foremost is this “Religion is a wonderful thing as long as it’s NOT inflicted on those who don’t want it to be” . And my second is this , all major religions believe there’s a greater being God Allah whatever so just because a Buddhist believes in Buddha and I believe in Christ it does not make him
Wrong or me wrong . I truely believe (with the possible and very probable exception of Muslims) all religions in there own way are looking in the same direction . There name or definition may be different but they all basically agree in a greater being . Now I don’t give a d...a...m if you (said metaphorically) agree with me or not but that’s the way I see religion regardless of Christianity or whatever .
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#15 Post by EdinCT » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:17 pm

The Jewish people are the true vine todays biblical Christians are branches grafted into the true vine. Jesus Christ is the son of God he came to fufill the law and became the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of men. He paid a price he did not owe because we had a bill we could not pay. If we believe in him and what he came to earth to do our sins are forgiven.
To those who follow after other prophets all I can say is Christ was crucified and buried and Rose again on the third day. He was seen by many after he arose and acended back to heaven and he will return when the appointed time comes. He saved us not because of righteous work we had done but because of his mercy for us. So yes Blaine there is hope for all who call on him and asked to be reconciled to God. So Jesus is the way the truth and the life.
That is not the case of any other prophets when they died they were mortal.
That I take by faith and I have seen Gods hand at work over my life.But I know the Lord gave us free will so it is a choice if we wish to believe or not.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#16 Post by Old Savage » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:24 pm

Let it be done to you as you believe
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#17 Post by AJMD429 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:11 pm

Having several patients who are Buddhists, including some 'higher-ups', I did some reading on that philosophy and religion, from many sources, including Joseph Campbell, and several histories of the Dalai Lamas.

If you do that with an open mind, it will NOT undermine your faith in Christ, but will bolster it, and help you understand how those who lack that faith think, and how humans are ALL limited in our ability to see the Whole Truth, regardless of our chosen faith, or our 'level' within that faith. Those who are at the top of any of the legitimate religions* get close to seeing the Whole Truth, I'm sure, but any of us who dismiss or disparage others who are trying sincerely to live a good life and be true to their own faith, are missing the point.

(* "legitimate religions" means those who do not advocate violence against non-believers)
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#18 Post by Grizz » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:28 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:04 pm
It was made pretty clear, more than once in the Bible, that Israel and the Jews are God's chosen people. But, according to the NT, only Christians may enter heaven. Just something that makes me go Hmmmmmm. Any thoughts on the matter?
thought 1. the bible doesn't say "only Christians may enter heaven"

thought 1a. the bible does say that not everyone who claims to do works in the Name of Christ will go to heaven. [Mathew 7 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.]Christ's words. Christ who cannot lie.

thought 1b. the bible does say that whosoever will believe and trust Christ's offer will be in heaven with Him.

[Romans 10 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.]

["And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him
that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." -Revelation 22:17]

thought 2. the bible does say that God chose Abram, and made a covenant with Abram before he was Jewish, he was made Jewish by circumcision as a testimony to other nations of the special relationship. the bible also says that a "remnant" will be saved, it does not say that everyone with a Jewish heritage will go to heaven.

The thief on the cross next to Christ went to heaven with Him.

On the subject of religions, all religions are counterfeits of the truth, or direct abject denial of the truth. The Christian religion, some of it, is full of pus and vinegar. The early chapters of Revelation are Christ's warning to apostate churches of that day.

No one is going to wake up on the "other side" and be face to face with allah or joseph smith or buddah or any of the legions of hindu gods. THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. he states in the bible that he creates every soul, that he owns every soul, and he will judge every soul as to whether they are under Christ's Blood, of not.

The only condition of salvation in the Bible that I am aware of is to believe God and trust Christ. To believe is a verb, and action word.

[John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.] This is plain english, or greek, and doesn't require any expansion.

So far I've not found any instance in the Bible of anyone becoming reconciled to God without believing God and believing on Jesus, whom God sent, that is, believing that God sent Christ, that Christ died in our place, according to the OT scripture, that He was buried, and that He rose from the dead, according to the OT scripture. This is the gospel story, and it goes back to Abram's offer to sacrifice Isaac, in obedience to God, whose Name is YHWH, according to the OT scriptures.

[Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost]

AND [Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved] This from the apostle Peter after he was arrested for preaching Christ. Reading Acts Chapter 4 should persuade and convince anyone that the gospel, presented in both the old and new testaments, is true.

Jesus says in [John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.]

there is NO OTHER NAME. This includes the name associated with every "great religion", which is another term for "great big fat lie", because, you know, Christ is God, and God cannot lie.

thanks for asking !!!

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#19 Post by oldAG » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:20 am

6pt-sika wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:13 pm
I truely believe (with the possible and very probable exception of Muslims) all religions in there own way are looking in the same direction . There name or definition may be different but they all basically agree in a greater being.
I would suggest that you do a little research (maybe even sit down with a Muslim and engage in a discussion) and get to know what they believe about the prophet Jesus.
Not only do Muslims use the term P.B.U.H. when speaking of Muhammad but use that same honorific phrase for Jesus.
You may be enlightened.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#20 Post by 6pt-sika » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:35 am

oldAG wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:20 am
6pt-sika wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:13 pm
I truely believe (with the possible and very probable exception of Muslims) all religions in there own way are looking in the same direction . There name or definition may be different but they all basically agree in a greater being.
I would suggest that you do a little research (maybe even sit down with a Muslim and engage in a discussion) and get to know what they believe about the prophet Jesus.
Not only do Muslims use the term P.B.U.H. when speaking of Muhammad but use that same honorific phrase for Jesus.
You may be enlightened.
Let me enlighten you a bit !

Each year when I'm in the Philippines I have to come in contact with a boatload of muslims . Some "seem to be decent humans" other come across as A #1 A holes . I have a filipina niece who's boyfriend is a Morroccon Muslim , I was around him quite a bit back in November of last year and he came across like any of us . He also told me both his parents were college professors and while they are muslim by denomination they don't follow the religion as such . Now whether he was telling me the truth or not is yet to be seen . And I have no idea what PBUH is . But I do know what JFC is !

I think you missed what I meant in that sentence , my feeling is all major recognized religion possibly excluding muslims believes in a greater being PERIOD .
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#21 Post by mikld » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:29 am

I learned during my dealings with the public (bartender, restaurant mgr.) to never discuss politics or religion. I read the bible every day with my wife and leave the deep philosophical interpretations to those more intelligent than I. I rely on the Holy Spirit to "interpret" what I'm reading and give me the meaning. I know what my destination is, because I'm a "New Testament" Christian believing in the New Covenant...

I don't have a religion, I have a first hand, face to face relationship with Jesus...
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#22 Post by BlaineG » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:34 am

no idea what PBUH is
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#23 Post by Grizz » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:27 am

mikld wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:29 am
I learned during my dealings with the public (bartender, restaurant mgr.) to never discuss politics or religion. I read the bible every day with my wife and leave the deep philosophical interpretations to those more intelligent than I. I rely on the Holy Spirit to "interpret" what I'm reading and give me the meaning. I know what my destination is, because I'm a "New Testament" Christian believing in the New Covenant...

I don't have a religion, I have a first hand, face to face relationship with Jesus...
same here. philosophy is human wisdom, the bible is YHWH's wisdom, and as you point out, Christ's Holy Spirit interprets his Word to us....

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#24 Post by Grizz » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:40 am

a fundamental basic reality check is to ask myself whom or what I expect to see the instant I leave this world and enter the next...

IF this is something of my own vain imagination, or assumptions, or "thoughts", or cultural programming, or a foreign god that is not YHWH,
THEN, according to the bible, I can expect to see one thing, and I can expect to have an Oh ---- revelation

OR, IF I take YHWH at his word, if I believe on and call on Christ whom he sent, if I trust the arrangement they made before creation was made, if I trust in and rely on the the Savior, then God, Theos, YHWH, imputes Christ's righteousness to me.

It is all about him, not about me. I recieve and accept his grace, mercy, salvation, and eternity with him in his house.

this is not philosophy, it is the revelation of the old and new testaments. if I reject it I get to pay the penalty due me, if I accept it I get the account paid by Christ.

these things are binary. one view is in agreement with God's view, the other view is diametrically opposed to God. Both things cannot possibly be true at the same time. which is a merciful thing for me because I am so simple minded that I only need to keep one thing in my soul and mind.

naturally these comments are directed to the unbeliever or undecided with the hope that someone "out there" finds help for the journey...

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#25 Post by BrianSH » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:41 pm

My understanding is the the muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet, but not the son of God.
Jesus says if the message is rejected, take nothing from that with you, and shake the dust from your feet and move on. The muslims say to chop them.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#26 Post by oldAG » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:42 pm

As with all religions, there always has been, and always will be, a-wholes.
This link ( http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/2016 ... esus-30772 ) is a brief article taken from the 'U.S. Catholic' publication that reinforces what many will not consider, because of the zealotry of some of the adherents/sects to the Islamic faith. Just as there are zealots in the various Fundamentalist/Judeo-Christian faith(s), and others.
Despite what some people claim about the supposed inherent violence of Islam, the Christian Bible is not without its own excesses with respect to what acts of violence may be perpetrated on others.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#27 Post by 765x53 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:52 pm

BrianSH wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:41 pm
My understanding is the the muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet, but not the son of God.
Jesus says if the message is rejected, take nothing from that with you, and shake the dust from your feet and move on. The muslims say to chop them.
John the Baptist was the last prophet. Then, the age of prophets ended.
So, IF there was a being speaking to Mohamed, telling him that he was a prophet, that THING was not from God.
Mohamed knew the gospel, he knew the truth, and chose to lead souls away from God.
The evil creature that Mohammedans worship is not God.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#28 Post by Bullard4075 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:40 pm

Grizz wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:28 pm
BlaineG wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:04 pm
It was made pretty clear, more than once in the Bible, that Israel and the Jews are God's chosen people. But, according to the NT, only Christians may enter heaven. Just something that makes me go Hmmmmmm. Any thoughts on the matter?
thought 1. the bible doesn't say "only Christians may enter heaven"

thought 1a. the bible does say that not everyone who claims to do works in the Name of Christ will go to heaven. [Mathew 7 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.]Christ's words. Christ who cannot lie.

thought 1b. the bible does say that whosoever will believe and trust Christ's offer will be in heaven with Him.

[Romans 10 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.]

["And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him
that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." -Revelation 22:17]

thought 2. the bible does say that God chose Abram, and made a covenant with Abram before he was Jewish, he was made Jewish by circumcision as a testimony to other nations of the special relationship. the bible also says that a "remnant" will be saved, it does not say that everyone with a Jewish heritage will go to heaven.

The thief on the cross next to Christ went to heaven with Him.

On the subject of religions, all religions are counterfeits of the truth, or direct abject denial of the truth. The Christian religion, some of it, is full of pus and vinegar. The early chapters of Revelation are Christ's warning to apostate churches of that day.

No one is going to wake up on the "other side" and be face to face with allah or joseph smith or buddah or any of the legions of hindu gods. THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. he states in the bible that he creates every soul, that he owns every soul, and he will judge every soul as to whether they are under Christ's Blood, of not.

The only condition of salvation in the Bible that I am aware of is to believe God and trust Christ. To believe is a verb, and action word.

[John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.] This is plain english, or greek, and doesn't require any expansion.

So far I've not found any instance in the Bible of anyone becoming reconciled to God without believing God and believing on Jesus, whom God sent, that is, believing that God sent Christ, that Christ died in our place, according to the OT scripture, that He was buried, and that He rose from the dead, according to the OT scripture. This is the gospel story, and it goes back to Abram's offer to sacrifice Isaac, in obedience to God, whose Name is YHWH, according to the OT scriptures.

[Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost]

AND [Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved] This from the apostle Peter after he was arrested for preaching Christ. Reading Acts Chapter 4 should persuade and convince anyone that the gospel, presented in both the old and new testaments, is true.

Jesus says in [John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.]

there is NO OTHER NAME. This includes the name associated with every "great religion", which is another term for "great big fat lie", because, you know, Christ is God, and God cannot lie.

thanks for asking !!!
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#29 Post by M. M. Wright » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:43 am

Grizz, that's good preachin' brother!
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#30 Post by Booger Bill » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:32 pm

Simply put I nor you get to make the rules. I know we all like to pop off our version of how we would like it to be. God made the rules of salvation and I dont claim to understand every nuance but I fear God and attempt to follow the bible and Gods written rules of salvation.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#31 Post by piller » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:46 pm

Booger Bill wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:32 pm
Simply put I nor you get to make the rules. I know we all like to pop off our version of how we would like it to be. God made the rules of salvation and I dont claim to understand every nuance but I fear God and attempt to follow the bible and Gods written rules of salvation.
That is exactly the way I understand it. Not up to me to make the rules. I do have the choice to follow his rules or not. I want what is promised, so I try to follow the example his word gave while the word walked this earth. I am not the one who is in authority.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#32 Post by Pitchy » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:48 pm

This is how i feel about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tA7E7pbUws
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#33 Post by piller » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:14 pm

I remember hearing that song on the radio when I was around 10 years old. I loved it then and still do. It really means a lot.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#34 Post by Carlsen Highway » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:15 am

Jesus was, of course, a Jew, preaching within a Jewish culture. Jesus's teaching expanded the Jewish "chosen" people to include all people.

Allah, is the name of God in Islam, and Jesus is revered as a prophet. I think it would be a mistake to tar all Muslims as being evil, when the element you are judging them by is a small group of Middle Easterners. Most Muslims are Indonesian and African. Just as it would be wrong to judge all Christians by the Spanish Inquisition, and the religious persecutions of the Irish Republican Army.

It is people who are failable.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#35 Post by BlaineG » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:43 am

Carlsen Highway wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:15 am
Jesus was, of course, a Jew, preaching within a Jewish culture. Jesus's teaching expanded the Jewish "chosen" people to include all people.

Allah, is the name of God in Islam, and Jesus is revered as a prophet. I think it would be a mistake to tar all Muslims as being evil, when the element you are judging them by is a small group of Middle Easterners. Most Muslims are Indonesian and African. Just as it would be wrong to judge all Christians by the Spanish Inquisition, and the religious persecutions of the Irish Republican Army.

It is people who are failable.
The moderatly large Somali district in Seattle, after 911....well, they piled up anything that would burn in the public streets and made a bonfire they danced around in celebration of 911. It was on the news a day or two, with video. I saw it. Can't find it anymore as it's probably been scrubbed in the name of PC. Several of their little shops and resturants were also investigated for funneling money to terrorist causes in their home country. So, sorry...all Muslims are by nature dedicated to dominate and destroy any non-muslim peoples. And, over the weekend on one of a Christian's holiest days:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/sri-lanka ... icials-say
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#36 Post by Booger Bill » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:39 am

A SMALL group of the muslims?? If so, the rest of them are all backsliders. Their Koran orders them to kill all infidels (non muslims) as I understand it.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#37 Post by piller » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:36 am

The Koran tells how to act when in the minority so that they can position for an overthrow and then become the rulers. It also tells that when they are ruling, that all non-believers must convert or die.

Read it for yourself, don't take my word for it when you can read it yourself.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#38 Post by Ray » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:56 pm

When "they", whoever that is, were touting the very small percentage of radical muslims, someone crunched the numbers and the totals of radicals equaled the combined populations of canada, mexico, and the good old U.S. of A.

Even spread out across the globe, that is a lot of peoples who want to kill you.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#39 Post by RobertS » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:07 pm

Luke 23:39-43 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was [a]hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving [c]what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come [d]in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

To me, this means simply to believe in Him and be saved. It's a gift, and the work has been done for us. The only requirement for us is the humility to accept the gift.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#40 Post by BlaineG » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:09 pm

Booger Bill wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:32 pm
Simply put I nor you get to make the rules. I know we all like to pop off our version of how we would like it to be. God made the rules of salvation and I dont claim to understand every nuance but I fear God and attempt to follow the bible and Gods written rules of salvation.
And, over the years, Human Men wrote about them. Fallible, human people. Just sayin'....

There was a sinner on a cross that was beside Jesus, a thief that had never yet accepted Jesus as the Christ. He was never baptised. Never been to church. But, was saved by Jesus BECAUSE the thief asked nicely and truely. Like I said: Keep it simple because Jesus MEANT to keep it simple. There is no Sin/Forgiveness Flow Chart. Accept Jesus, and receive Grace and Salvation. :wink:
If You Back Me Into A Corner There Will Not Be Enough Room For Both Of Us. :evil:

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#41 Post by Carlsen Highway » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:03 am

Booger Bill wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:39 am
A SMALL group of the muslims?? If so, the rest of them are all backsliders. Their Koran orders them to kill all infidels (non muslims) as I understand it.
Most Muslims are Indonesian. Literally a billion of them.

The Koran does indeed have things like that in it, but so also does the Bible. We choose not follow some of it, and so do Muslim people. These are my thoughts on this matter.
But I will not presume anyone wishes to hear any more of my private considerations, as it is not my purpose to risk causing offence.

My experience is limited as we have few muslim people around here, other than Indonesian, who are the friendliest people on earth. I have some small experience of Somalians, essentially refugees. It has not been positive, regardless of their religion. Those people grew up hard, and in a brutal world and they have not left it behind. I hope it will be the next generation who may be free of it.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#42 Post by Grizz » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:48 am

Allah, is the name of God in Islam, and Jesus is revered as a prophet.
The name of God is YHWH. HE SAID SO, and YHWH appears over 6000 times in the Hebrew OT.


allah is NOT THE SAME AS YHWH, and God's name IS NOT ALLAH. allah is one of the demons, among many worshipped by the jews in solomon's temple, and is the final straw that caused God to send the nation in captivity to babylon. this is all verified as historical fact.

Jesus is NOT revered as a prophet. They pay him lip service, that is all. You can verify this by the test of a prophet given by Yahweh. If a prophet says something is true and it doesn't happen, he is a liar.

Jesus said that he would be killed and he would rise from the dead, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. That means that the prophet test is applied to Jesus, and yes, he is the prophet. Jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but via Jesus. if the muslims actually revered Jesus, then they would convert to follow him to heaven, because it is the only way to get there. To revere is to worship, which they do not. Jesus created life, allah did not and can not.

it is TRUE that the process of reconciliation to Yahweh involves believing him and believing Christ about Christ's work on the cross, his shed blood, and the fact of propitiation. there is not one religious thing anyone can do to be acceptable to God, Christ has done it all, and believers believe this and trust Christ alone, and only his sacrifice. the second I actually believe this, I was a believer, and the moment I professed this I was saved.[Romans]

a word of caution though, dealt with by James who was dealing with early church apostasy....

James 2:19 KJV Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James 2:19 YLT thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

James 2:19 NLT You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

James was dealing with easy believism and early apostasy. The demons know who Christ is. They believe he will judge them and cast them into the lake of fire. yet they are not saved.

puzzle this out a little bit and the simplicity of "for by grace are we saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, less any man should boast", [grizz] becomes a lot more granular. the difference is in what Christ said: WE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. being born again is a supernatural act of sovereign God in the person of Holy Spirit who created and owns our souls. we can no more make ourselves born again than we could make ourselves born in the flesh, or become a wheelbarrow. This is Christ's teaching, not mine. God makes believers out of us.

Peter refined this granularity in unmistakable terminology. Peter the fisherman who denied Christ the night Christ was taken, who was restored to fellowship by the lake shore after the resurrection, said this:
1Peter 1

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


And one more detail, the meaning of "repentance". In NT, repentance literally means to change one's mind. IT DOES NOT MEAN to stop doing anything, or start doing anything other than changing my mind. this means I agree with God that he is Holy and I am not, I change my mind about my need of divine intervention to keep me out of the lake of fire, about the reason for and the result of the death of Christ on the cross, about the fact that Christ and Yahweh and Christ's Spirit are the one and only God. Believers BELIEVE GOD and transfer ALL hope and faith and trust to the Person and the work of Christ, with no "ifs", "ands", or "buts". As, for example, the thief on the second cross, he changed his mind. Remember, Christ reads our minds, and knows what is in us. And whether we are trusting him or trying to game him.....

Usually at this point someone will mention James saying that he will show me his salvation by his works, and this is right because scripture says that we are 'saved unto good works' and we are to walk in them.

HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT MEAN OR IMPLY THAT WE ARE SAVED BY OUR GOOD WORKS. IT MEANS THAT GOOD WORKS FOLLOW US AS SYMPTOMS AND FRUIT, THE RESULT OF BEING BORN AGAIN. NOT THE MEANS OF BEING BORN AGAIN.

I realize I am preaching to believers, but I want the unvarnished TRUTH to be read by the bots, the nsa, the fbi, and the rest of the hyper-corrupt political class, and whomever else happens by the camp fire....

Let us, those of us who are BORN AGAIN, agree together for this great country, that the pagan culture we live in would show itself to the lost for what it is, and perhaps God will have mercy on us as he had in Nineveh, and turn the hearts of the lost to Christ.

Blessings Y'all

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#43 Post by BlaineG » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:11 am

But I will not presume anyone wishes to hear any more of my private considerations, as it is not my purpose to risk causing offence.
Myself? I like to hear others thoughts. This forum is (generally :P ) offense-free.
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#44 Post by oldAG » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:58 pm

Grizz wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:48 am
Allah, is the name of God in Islam, and Jesus is revered as a prophet.
I realize I am preaching to believers, but I want the unvarnished TRUTH to be read by the bots, the nsa, the fbi, and the rest of the hyper-corrupt political class, and whomever else happens by the camp fire....

Blessings Y'all
You assume too much Grizz. You are free to preach your interpretation of your faith, as you define it, but that does not mean that those who do not believe as you do, are somehow wrong. Taking such a stance condemns you as one of the "my god is better than yours" zealots.

Allah, is the name of God in Islam, and Jesus is revered as a prophet. That, too, is fact. You may not like being called out on it, but that's your prerogative.
All faiths have a belief in a God/Supreme Being. Does it not occur to you that, maybe, they are in fact in awe of the same Supreme Being?

Maybe not. It seems you have a closed mind to anything other than your way - my way or the highway. Somehow, I doubt that you could allow yourself to sit with a Muslim and discuss such a topic.

I wonder if that's why the Founders had Amendment 1 (the first one!) enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Just sayin'.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#45 Post by FWiedner » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:58 am

oldAG wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:58 pm
Does it not occur to you that, maybe, they are in fact in awe of the same Supreme Being?
If there is only one G_d, how could it be any other way?

:?:
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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#46 Post by oldAG » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:24 am

FWiedner wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:58 am
oldAG wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:58 pm
Does it not occur to you that, maybe, they are in fact in awe of the same Supreme Being?
If there is only one G_d, how could it be any other way?

:?:
^^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said.

Allah is the standard Arabic word for God and is used by Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews as well as by Muslims regardless of their native tongue.

Ergo; Allah is G_d, is the Supreme Being. Whatever version of the faith adhered to.
Here endith the lesson.

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#47 Post by Grizz » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:12 am

You assume too much Grizz. You are free to preach your interpretation of your faith, as you define it, but that does not mean that those who do not believe as you do, are somehow wrong. Taking such a stance condemns you as one of the "my god is better than yours" zealots. [thank you for correctly noting that I am zealous for the One and Only God...[It is Almighty God Who states that those who believe as you do, and as I did, are WRONG. Christ died for us BECAUSE we believe lies]

Allah, is the name of God in Islam, and Jesus is revered as a prophet. That, too, is fact...[ this is in fact a lie. period.] You may not like being called out on it, but that's your prerogative. [you are not calling me out, you are stating that God, Maker and Creator of the universe and all that is in it, is a liar. Did you read this? You just called God a liar.] [of course, that's your prerogative] [ Isaiah 42:8 Holman Christian Standard Bible:
I am Yahweh, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another
or My praise to idols.
]

[Isaiah 45:5 I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God.]

All faiths have a belief in a God/Supreme Being. Does it not occur to you that, maybe, they are in fact in awe of the same Supreme Being? [no they are MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT the same being. You in fact have conflated satan and the demons, the word 'idols' above, with the one, only, holy God] [perhaps you did this in ignorance, I don't judge that, but I do discern the difference between truth and lies, and you believe a lie that is diametrically opposed to the revelation by the one God according to Scripture]... [most "faiths" as you call them are idol worship and idols are conceived, aided, and abetted by satan and the demons, according to Scripture]

Maybe not. It seems you have a closed mind to anything other than your way - my way or the highway. [Actually, it is Christ who is telling you that it is His Way, or the highway. I am His messenger telling you His message.] Somehow, I doubt that you could allow yourself to sit with a Muslim [I've done this. they are just as confused and ignorant of God's revelation as you are] and discuss such a topic. [you have not rejected me or my faith, you are rejecting the Gift of God. that's your choice and it's on you. I suggest you READ THE BIBLE prayerfully and try to understand that your assumptions are NOT FACTS. Christ, right now, is telling you that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and NO ONE comes to the Father but via Christ. God's Mercy is that he gave you another day to repent, meaning change your mind, and be saved. What is keeping you from doing that RIGHT NOW?]...[Isaiah 45:5 I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God.]..[this is FACT because God said it and God cannot lie, and the resurrection of Christ proves it, even to someone as stubborn as I]
I wonder if that's why the Founders had Amendment 1 (the first one!) enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Just sayin'. [well, now that you mention it, it is exactly why the Founders wrote the first amendment, so that I have the freedom to try to persuade you to alter your eternity from the lake of fire] ....
Friend, I implore you, in the Name of Jesus Christ, to repent and believe the Good News that Jesus died for your sins, according to Scripture, that He was buried, and that He rose from the dead, according to Scripture. He is alive, and He died to keep you out of the lake of fire. Won't you please consider the danger you are in and escape to Christ's Kingdom?

In Jesus' Name, grizz sends

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#48 Post by Grizz » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:30 am

Ergo; Allah is G_d, is the Supreme Being. Whatever version of the faith adhered to.
Here endith the lesson.
THIS IS NOT TRUE.
I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God.
I am Yahweh, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.
you can believe whatever you want to believe, but you have just posted demonic propaganda. there is NO OTHER "version of the faith", there is one, and only one. please read this carefully:
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
Galatians 1
this means that there is one and only one Gospel, there is one and only one Way, there is one and only one Truth, and there is one and only one Life, and this is Christ and His shed blood. won't you REPENT, change your mind concerning Christ, and be saved RIGHT NOW?

In Christ's Love, grizz

if you actually seek Truth, watch the video linked below . . .

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#49 Post by oldAG » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:39 pm

You post an interesting interpretation there, Grizz.
The video, to which you posted a link, is also "interesting".

At 6:26 in the video, we are advised that the only valid Bible is that of King James, and no other. Why?
Why not the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible, or the Geneva Bible, all of which preceded the King James version?
In January 1604, King James convened the Hampton Court Conference, where a new English version was conceived in response to the problems of the earlier translations perceived by the Puritans, a faction of the Church of England.

Or, even earlier than that, a commissioned (by Pope Damasus 1, in 382) revision by Jerome which resulted in the Vulgate, itself a translation from the yet earlier Vetus Latina.
All of which, by definition, are iterations/translated versions of yet earlier texts. A bit like evolution, really :D , a (dangerous) proposition to which one assumes you do not believe (video @ ~20sec)

Have another read of this (and note its origin) http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/2016 ... esus-30772 , or is it your belief that those of the Catholic faith are somehow heretical when compared to your faith? They do, of course, believe in the same G_d as you? Or do you still hold that "My G_d is better than your G_d"?

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Re: A Biblical Conflict?

#50 Post by Grizz » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:39 pm

oldAG wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:39 pm
You post an interesting interpretation there, Grizz.

Sir, I didn't post interpretations, I posted scripture. Take it up with God if you don't like it.



The video, to which you posted a link, is also "interesting".

Sir, I am glad you enjoyed it. Please comment on the point of the video, its purpose.

At 6:26 in the video, we are advised that the only valid Bible is that of King James, and no other. Why?

That's a good question. It's that man's preference, for which he has good reasons. If you have to ask those 'why nots', then you need to read the internet more, I don't time to explain it.


Why not the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible, or the Geneva Bible, all of which preceded the King James version?

In January 1604, King James convened the Hampton Court Conference, where a new English version was conceived in response to the problems of the earlier translations perceived by the Puritans, a faction of the Church of England.

Or, even earlier than that, a commissioned (by Pope Damasus 1, in 382) revision by Jerome which resulted in the Vulgate, itself a translation from the yet earlier Vetus Latina.
All of which, by definition, are iterations/translated versions of yet earlier texts. A bit like evolution, really :D , a (dangerous) proposition to which one assumes you do not believe (video @ ~20sec)

Sir, you confused yourself. You missed the fact that the Septuagint, a translation from Hebrew completed hundreds of years before Christ, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, are in near perfect agreement. No evolution there. Besides which, modern archaeology is turning up more and more fragments of first century texts, scripture texts, hymn texts, teaching texts, etc. It is likely that we will soon have a complete manuscript dating from the first century, which predates everything we've named, and the early writings agree with the septuagint and dead sea scrolls in substance.

Have another read of this (and note its origin) http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/2016 ... esus-30772 , or is it your belief that those of the Catholic faith are somehow heretical when compared to your faith? They do, of course, believe in the same G_d as you? Or do you still hold that "My G_d is better than your G_d"?
"My G_d is better than your G_d"
Sir, you dishonor yourself when you lie about what I have said. I said that my God says that He is the ONLY God. is that so hard to understand? or are you unable to discuss what you believe from the point of view of God's revelation in scripture. So far you've not presented one iota of scripture as evidence for whatever it is you believe.... but I assure with all sincerity, that there is only one God, and that God is not allah.

Sir, just so you know for certain, THE GOD I SERVE AND WORSHIP IS THE ONLY GOD IN EXISTENCE. BY DEFINITION HE IS BETTER THAN ANY GOD ANYONE ELSE PROPOSES OR SUPPOSES. THE ONLY GOD IS BY DEFINITION THE BEST GOD. WHY WOULD YOU SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS THAN THE BEST?

THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE MY GOD WILL JUDGE EVERY HUMAN, AND EVERY HUMAN WILL KNEEL DOWN AND PROCLAIM THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD [WHICH IS YHWH IN HEBREW] TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.

Sir, I don't make this stuff up, I am reporting what Scripture says. What it says is true whether you choose to believe it or not. You will someday stand before the risen Christ and answer to Him. Methinks your attempt to associate Him with a counterfeit will not work out too well for you. IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO CHANGE YOUR MIND, and I PRAY YOU DO...


In Christ's Love, grizz

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