Loading BP Substitute (APP) in 45-70 Questions

86er · Post by **86er** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:25 pm

OK - I have an opportunity to hunt on a private place that only allows black powder (or equivalent substitute) muzzleloaders or cartridges. How they would know the difference w/ cartridges, I'm not sure but I wont break the rules.

I have American Pioneer Powder FFg for my MZLDR. I want to use my 45-70 and need to put together some cartridges. I have heard two thing: fill the case until the bullet just slightly compresses the charge - and use 54grains. So my question about this is twofold. How much powder and what will be the expected velocity with a 405gr bullet?

Next question: Can I use a conventional bullet or are loads like above for use with cast bullets only?

I also thought about dropping 50, 70 or 80 grains equivalent of Triple7 pellets - but I have not heard whether this can be done and how.

Any advice or tips are welcome.

cas · Post by **cas** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:00 pm

I've used APP in cartridge before. I little compression is fine with APP, but you don't want a lot. Fill it to a smidgen past where the base of the bullet would be. If you're using lead bullets a card or cork wad under the base would be helpful, but I've shot plenty without.

The "fouling" with APP is not like with the other powders or real BP, so you might be able to get away with jacket bullets. Don't know.

junkbug · Post by **junkbug** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:12 pm

I have used Goex Clear Shot, which I understand to be the previous name for American Pioneer Powder.

The Clear Shot worked OK with 340gr and 405 gr cast bullets, and LLA lube. I Did not weight the charges. I simply tried Lee dippers until I found one that put the powder just a hair above where I thought the base of the bullet would go. Very light compression only. This powder weighs less than black powder by volume, so perhaps 54 gr is about right. Modern cases will not take 70 gr of real black powder without using a compression die.

The accuracy was OK (5-6" groups at 100 yards) out of a Trapdoor Springfield Rifle that has a worn bore. These are the only loads I have fired out of the rifle. I have nothing else to compare them to.

If am not certain if you can use jacketed bullets under this powder, but do not know of a reason not to. The only reason I don't is that I don't want to wear the Trapdoor's bore any more than it already has endured.

I have heard that pellets can be used in cartridge loads. Don't know if you can run an 80gr pellet, and still get the loaded cartridge to feed in a lever gun.

Sean

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:19 pm

cas wrote:I've used APP in cartridge before. I little compression is fine with APP, but you don't want a lot. Fill it to a smidgen past where the base of the bullet would be. If you're using lead bullets a card or cork wad under the base would be helpful, but I've shot plenty without.

The "fouling" with APP is not like with the other powders or real BP, so you might be able to get away with jacket bullets. Don't know.

I shoot a bunch of APP in all of my rifles, including the 45-70. I do it pretty much as described by our pard, cas. I have never tried it with jacket bullets, so can
t say how it would do, but suspect it would be fine.

APP should be used with NO lube or with only smokeless lube (pretty much the same thing!) It makes it's own lube is what that say, and I have to say that it works as advertised! Clean up with Windex Multi purpose with vinegar and you done in a couple of patches. Oil bore with Ballistol or some other non-petroleum lube and your ready for that beer.

Goex Pinnacle is the same product with more consistent granulation and less "fines" (dust).