Winchester loading tool

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OldWin
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Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

Hey guys. So I have a bunch of the 1874 and 1894 loading tools in a bunch of different calibers.
They work great, as I've used em a few times in the past. Mostly the 1874 in 38-40.
I have one, however, of this 1891 type for the 38-56. It's the only one in this style I've seen. Must be an early design for the 1886, cause I have the 1894 style made for 1886 cartridges also.
Am I right in this assumption? Some if guys must have these.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Pitchy
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by Pitchy »

Neat stuff there buddy. 8)
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GunnyMack
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by GunnyMack »

That is a nice bit o kit ya got Jay! Buddy of mine has his great grandfathers 86 that was bought new, he has the Winchester bullet mould and loading tools. That mould dropped a beautiful bullet! He still elk hunts with that 40-65.
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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

Thanks guys.
Yeah, I have a bunch of the bullet molds too.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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marlinman93
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by marlinman93 »

I only have two and they are the two later designs. One in .22WCF, and the other in .32-40. Both tools came with my cased 3 barrel Pope Ballard set. I've never used the .32-40 as I have die sets for that caliber that are easier. But the .22WCF I have used just because I don't own dies for it, and occasionally want to shoot it a bit.
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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

Thanks Marlinman.
I figured sure someone here had some of that style. I haven't run into anyone with one around here, but you also don't see many 86's here. The only thing that threw me was I have the 1894 style tool in 86 chamberings. Thats why I figured the 1891 type was an earlier design and dropped when the 1894 type came out.
I've only loaded with the 1874 type, but it worked great. Just did it for fun.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Sixgun
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by Sixgun »

Sum bit:h!!!!!!! This guy has the gall to show off the stuff that was in my gun room...until Jays last visit! Whew....must have sewn pockets in the sleeves of that dang buffalo coat.

On a serious note .....there is a myriad of loading tools from the period, each time, getting more practical and easy to use. I have/had civil war Colt moulds that are nothing more than a block of steel and a round ball cavity and conical cavity with steel handles about 3" long and a sprue cutter. Final diameters are all over the place, usually on the smaller side.

The early loading tools/moulds leave much to be desired as to using. In those days, time meant nothing and they sure did not shoot the quantity we do today. I wrap leather around the steel handles when I do use em..

You do have some very collectible ones there Jay. As you know, the 38-56 is the same as the 38-55 with slight cosmetic changes, such as lube grooves or profile so people who had both rifles would buy both moulds.

Just use em, be happy, and return the dang things next time your down! Here's a few pics from an old 1890's catalog. I believe I have catalogs from all of the major manufactures from the time period. Got to dig into them to find the Winchester ones...if you didn't already take em. :D. The last pic is a saver...if you like original guns, not the junk put out today. ----6

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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

Haha thank's bud.
Yeah, I got a bunch of them, but not the 1891 model. Just the one.
The other, more common ones, I have in a bunch of calibers.
Have molds that appear to be new.
My buddy had a box full of them in his shop and I went through and got the best ones. He let me have em for cheap.
The 1874 "tong tool" I've used a fair amount. It works surprisingly well and is fun. I used one in 44-40 too.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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marlinman93
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by marlinman93 »

I have some 1881 Marlin loading tools designed by John Browning that are really a nice tool! Browning designed the only tong tool that sized cases, and Marlin bought the patent from Browning. Each tool is serial numbered, so there weren't huge numbers built. I've reloaded .45-70, .40-60 Marlin, .38-55 Ballard and .32-40 Ballard with my 4 tools.
I also have Ideal tools marked Marlin Firearms Co. from the period when Marlin owned Ideal. Haven't used them much other than to use the molds to cast bullets on oddball calibers. But they work well, and just not as well as Browning's Marlin tool.
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Sixgun
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by Sixgun »

marlinman93 wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:10 pm But they work well
Yep..they sure do.....they had the accuracy thing worked out pretty good back in the day. Every old tong tool I've cast bullets with was always accurate...when shot out of old guns...... but somehow the later manufacturers of moulds changed things to make em work in all guns.....kind of what Lyman did when making 429421 ...changing elmers heavy driving band.....---6
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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

I've never seen the Marlin tools, just pictures. I've heard they are really nice though.
Good stuff, back in the day........
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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marlinman93
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by marlinman93 »

OldWin wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:45 pm I've never seen the Marlin tools, just pictures. I've heard they are really nice though.
Good stuff, back in the day........
The ones made from Browning's patent are extremely nice tools. The later ones made using Ideal patents by John Barlow who started Ideal, are very good, but certainly not on the level of the Browning design.
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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

Yeah. Old JMB sure had the knack and the knowin'. :D
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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marlinman93
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by marlinman93 »

The 1881 tool that Marlin bought from Browning predates Browning's involvement with Winchester. I often wonder if John Marlin had delved deeper into Browning's talent, and gotten to know the man better, if he would have been the recipient of Browning's genius and designs, instead of Winchester? It might of ended with Marlin being the giant of the early gun industry, instead of Winchester!
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
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fordwannabe
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by fordwannabe »

Vall are you trying tell me Winchester is bigger than Marlin in the early levergun world? What are you smokin man?
Yeah yeah I know it to be true but in MY house same same. I prefer a 336 to a Winchester 94 (most times)but prefer. 1886 to a Marlin 1895(most times) although I do have one or two🙄of each.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
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Rube Burrows
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by Rube Burrows »

Those are neat. I have always wanted to get a Winchester or Ideal loading tool in 38-55 or possibly 45 Colt, if they make one. I know they make them in 44-40 but I don't know if I have seen one for .45.
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marlinman93
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by marlinman93 »

fordwannabe wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:54 am Vall are you trying tell me Winchester is bigger than Marlin in the early levergun world? What are you smokin man?
Yeah yeah I know it to be true but in MY house same same. I prefer a 336 to a Winchester 94 (most times)but prefer. 1886 to a Marlin 1895(most times) although I do have one or two🙄of each.
More like "was bigger" Tom, than "is". Of course we know how it ended for Winchester, and Marlin. Both are around in a different form, but obviously Marlin's presence has been larger than Winchester's for a long time in recent years.

According to the late Bill Brophy, he told me that John Marlin never wanted to grow Marlin by leaps and bounds. He felt doing so meant sporadic hiring of employees, and he'd rather keep a qualified work force, than build up a somewhat inexperienced work force to keep up with sudden increases in demand. This is why when demand for Marlin lever guns began to ramp up quickly, he simply stopped making Ballard single shot rifles. It allowed the company to keep up with demand, and not hire a huge workforce to do so. Plus the Ballard patent was owned by Schoverling, Daley and Gales, so every Ballard built put a smaller portion of the sales in Marlin's coffers than did guns they designed and owned fully. Easy business decision to drop a sporting goods company's product, and concentrate on their own products.
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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

I have one or two of the 1894 style tools in 38-55.

The early Marlin's (in my opinion) showed as good or better quality and finish as the old Winchesters. They also exhibited as good or better accuracy.
Where Marlin fell short was marketing. Winchester was very adept at advertising and marketing their products. They were also very good at eliminating competition by any means necessary. That is what killed the 1881 and 1888 Marlin.
The fact that he couldn't force Marlin out says a lot. The old Marlins were excellent rifles.
That said, I fell for the romance and marketing. :D
I have way more Winchesters than Marlins. :D
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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marlinman93
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by marlinman93 »

I don't think the 1881 and 1888 rifles were killed by anything Winchester did. More likely that they were simply less perfect designs than later LL Hepburn designed models after he hired on at Marlin in 1887 or 88. Louis Hepburn was another firearms genius, and he completely redesigned all of Marlin's models. The 1888 was a weaker action, and replaced by the simpler, and stronger Hepburn designed Model 1889. The big 1881 was replaced by the Hepburn designed Model 1895. Both models were leaps ahead of the previous models, and both had the Hepburn bolt with side eject feature still used in today's Marlins.

But Winchester was in a habit of running competition out of business, buying up patents and shelving them, and buying up companies and closing them down. There's a list of companies Winchester bought just to keep anyone else from buying them and reopening them. When Remington went bankrupt in 1886 Winchester tried to buy them and close them down. But the sale price was more than Winchester could pay at the time, so they partnered with Marcellus Hartley of UMC, who also owned part of the huge sporting goods company Schuyler, Hartley & Graham. Hartley wanted to save Remington, and Winchester fought with him for two years to try to get Remington closed down. Eventually Hartley bought out Winchester and saved Remington. Hartley was one of the few giants in the firearms industries that could compete with Winchester, and even better them.
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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

I had heard that Winchester tried to buy Marlin. Marlin, wouldn't sell, knowing he had a winner.
So, Winchester sued him for patent infringement for using top ejection, forcing them to go with the side eject Hepburn 1889. My favorite Marlin BTW.
That's why Marlin used the sliding loading gate on the 81 and 88. To keep from patent problems with King's gate.
Is this not true, Marlinman? Maybe I got bad info. I'm not a Marlin expert by any means. :D
There is no doubt that the later actions are a big improvement. It may have been a natural progression, and I just "heard a story". :D
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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marlinman93
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by marlinman93 »

Never heard that, and I don't think it's true either. Marlin (like many other gun companies) used Burgess patents for some of their designs. Winchester and Marlin both paid Andrew Burgess royalties for the tube loading design of loading through the side gate. Burgess designed the sliding gate, so Marlin paid him to use that patent design. If you look at a Burgess, you'll notice a lot of similarities to the 1881 Marlin, less so in the 1888.
The change to side ejection was simply a Hepburn improvement to keep brass from going down your neck, and keep the elements out of the action. Winchester didn't own a patent for top ejection that I know of as that feature's patent had run out before the 1881 even hit the market. So anyone could use top eject freely, if they wanted that type of ejection. The patent dates back to S&W lever action pistols before Win. or Marlin existed as companies.
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Rube Burrows
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by Rube Burrows »

OldWin wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:03 am I had heard that Winchester tried to buy Marlin. Marlin, wouldn't sell, knowing he had a winner.
So, Winchester sued him for patent infringement for using top ejection, forcing them to go with the side eject Hepburn 1889. My favorite Marlin BTW.
That's why Marlin used the sliding loading gate on the 81 and 88. To keep from patent problems with King's gate.
Is this not true, Marlinman? Maybe I got bad info. I'm not a Marlin expert by any means. :D
There is no doubt that the later actions are a big improvement. It may have been a natural progression, and I just "heard a story". :D

If they tried to buy them out I am glad it never happened. Look at all of the great rifles we would have missed. Now we get two types of great lever guns running simultaneous. I personally love both brands and have both brands. I do lean towards Winchester more though. One of my dream guns is still the 1888 Marling though in 38.
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OldWin
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Re: Winchester loading tool

Post by OldWin »

I thought of that too, Marlinman. It was too late for a patent, and too vague.
I had an 1881 in 45-70 for many years. It was cool.
I have a 2/3 mag 1889 rifle in 38-40 I absolutely love. Probably my favorite Marlin.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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