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Sometimes I hate being right. At least this time it only cost some one a burt hand and a little pride.
I took my nephews shooting with me this morning and my FIL wanted to come along.
When it was his turn to shoot he gets out his mini-14 and a bag of 223 ammo. Well being the gun/ammo nut that I am I go over to check out the rounds and see that they are reloads. I ask him where he got them from and he said a friend had gave them to him.
I checked the bag and it said "Alabama ammo company".
I told him these look like reloads possibly bought at a gunshow and I make it a point not to shoot such ammo.
Being a growen man and me being his son in law he did not listen.
On the 7th shot it blew the plastic bottom off the mag, burning his hand and them we had to use a good amount of force working the action to extract the shell.
Now I've very little experince with bad ammo, could some one look at the pic and tell me what happened.
Last edited by WCF3030 on Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.
Hopefully I'm not overusing an old saw, but: "Widsom is often only gained thru experience, and a lot of that as a direct result of bad judgement." Hope yer F-I-L gained some wisdom.
Don't know exactly; might be eastern bloc surplus. Surely someone more famaliar w/such will chime in. Doesn't appear US.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Griff wrote:Hopefully I'm not overusing an old saw, but: "Widsom is often only gained thru experience, and a lot of that as a direct result of bad judgement." Hope yer F-I-L gained some wisdom.
Very true. I learned by getting some ammo at a gunshow for my Mosin Nagat in 7.62x54 14-15 years ago and had almost the same thing happen.
I shoot with perscription saftey gasses. Which saved my eyes but my face was burnt.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.
The gun involved was a Ruger Mini 14. A loose copy of the M1, M14, M1A. This type of action is gas powered and requires a certain pressure curve to function properly.
The ruptured case head looks to me like the load was the wrong powder and / or load causing the wrong pressure curve. It looks to me like the case fired out of battery or the action unlocked before the pressure fell to the proper level.
I've never owned a Mini-14, however two of my friend have and they have had to keep their ammo almost perfectly to mil specs to keep their Minis functioning.
Joe
Last edited by J Miller on Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think Joe is right. It looks like the pressure blew out the unsupported case head. Joe's reason as to why the case head is unsupported (actually AFTER ignition) is a reasonable one. Use the ammo in a bolt gun or that Handirifle. I doubt it does that there.
They type of loads used in gas guns is absolutely critical to proper functioning. While the Mini-14 isn't a "copy" of the M-14 it is purt near one. Shooters of the Garand and M14 know better than to use the wrong powder in that action. Well, they will eventually, as it can also bend the operating rod.
FILs come in all sorts. Some won't be taught a thing. Hope yours learned today.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie wrote:I think Joe is right. It looks like the pressure blew out the unsupported case head. Joe's reason as to why the case head is unsupported (actually AFTER ignition) is a reasonable one. Use the ammo in a bolt gun or that Handirifle. I doubt it does that there.
They type of loads used in gas guns is absolutely critical to proper functioning. While the Mini-14 isn't a "copy" of the M-14 it is purt near one. Shooters of the Garand and M14 know better than to use the wrong powder in that action. Well, they will eventually, as it can also bend the operating rod.
FILs come in all sorts. Some won't be taught a thing. Hope yours learned today.
Hobie,
I can see where that would have worked just fine in a H&R and would have maybe only put a split case.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.
It's been a long time since I had a Mini 14 and I can't remember any cautions to this effect but has anyone ever heard of a Mini bending an opp rod? If it's possible said FIL might want to check his.
Rusty <><
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Yes, one of the two friends I mentioned had to ship his back to the factory for an overhaul. One of the problems was a bent op rod, the other a burned out barrel.
Had a friend who was shooting some reloads a LEO made up and sold on the side. Apparently he just collected the brass from their range. Lord knows how many times it had been reloaded. From what we could tell he double-charged a .45 ACP case - not the easiest thing to do. It blew the magazine out of the grip, cracked both grip panels, and knocked the slide off. Fortunately my friend was wearing his shooting glasses otherwise he would have lost an eye that day.
Had a friend who was shooting some reloads a LEO made up and sold on the side. Apparently he just collected the brass from their range. Lord knows how many times it had been reloaded. From what we could tell he double-charged a .45 ACP case - not the easiest thing to do. It blew the magazine out of the grip, cracked both grip panels, and knocked the slide off. Fortunately my friend was wearing his shooting glasses otherwise he would have lost an eye that day.
I experienced a case failure a couple months back with my 1911. Blew the last two cartridges out the bottom of the mag and blew the case head off. An experience not soon forgotten.
Terry, glad you FIL is o.k. Maybe he will listen to you next time huh?
Hobie wrote:I think Joe is right. It looks like the pressure blew out the unsupported case head. Joe's reason as to why the case head is unsupported (actually AFTER ignition) is a reasonable one. Use the ammo in a bolt gun or that Handirifle. I doubt it does that there.
They type of loads used in gas guns is absolutely critical to proper functioning. While the Mini-14 isn't a "copy" of the M-14 it is purt near one. Shooters of the Garand and M14 know better than to use the wrong powder in that action. Well, they will eventually, as it can also bend the operating rod.
FILs come in all sorts. Some won't be taught a thing. Hope yours learned today.
Hobie,
I can see where that would have worked just fine in a H&R and would have maybe only put a split case.
Excessive pressure is NOT necessarily indicated here only an inappropriate pressure curve (maybe).
This is remanufactured ammo, right? There's a difference. One is covered by liability insurance, the other is just a liability.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie wrote:I think Joe is right. It looks like the pressure blew out the unsupported case head. Joe's reason as to why the case head is unsupported (actually AFTER ignition) is a reasonable one. Use the ammo in a bolt gun or that Handirifle. I doubt it does that there.
They type of loads used in gas guns is absolutely critical to proper functioning. While the Mini-14 isn't a "copy" of the M-14 it is purt near one. Shooters of the Garand and M14 know better than to use the wrong powder in that action. Well, they will eventually, as it can also bend the operating rod.
FILs come in all sorts. Some won't be taught a thing. Hope yours learned today.
Hobie,
I can see where that would have worked just fine in a H&R and would have maybe only put a split case.
Excessive pressure is NOT necessarily indicated here only an inappropriate pressure curve (maybe).
This is remanufactured ammo, right? There's a difference. One is covered by liability insurance, the other is just a liability.
Yes it was reman ammo, with a official looking sticker on the bag saying "Alabama reloading company".
Which probably means it was reloaded down in somebodys basement next to there moonshine still & a police scanner, made from brass that they got at 10 cents a ton from the nearest military post.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.
My first thought was Slamfire?? I'm guessing this could also cause an unsupported case head failure situation. Noticed in the picture that there is a firing pin indent on primer. Could a slamfire, during the ejection cycle, create enough firing pin enertia with the Mini 14 to cause the primer indent?
I've reloaded 1000s of rounds, shot them out of minis both for myself/others using military and commercial brass with no problems. I actually load almost all my 223 with military brass, even for bolt rifles. It's not a problem as long as you remember it's different(less volume) than commercial 223 brass.
What this looks like to me is an overload caused by powder bridging while being loaded on a progressive press. You have to remember that this was in (formerly) crimped military brass. It looks like the crimp was removed through beveling or cutting it out, not swaging. There's nothing wrong with that, but you don't get as clear a picture of pressure by looking at the primer as you do with commercial brass. If you punch that primer out, I'll bet you find it's severely distorted/flowed into the crimp removal bevel. In other words, overpressured because it let go through the web of the brass not the side.
I saw something similar to that not too long ago. A dude was shooting his AR-15 with military ammo. The cases were all split lengthwise near the case head. The report of the weapon was way loud. I advised him to cease fire and check his ammo but he did not listen. It was definately military ammo, all battle packs. I left the range. I did not want to see the results of his foolishness. Be careful. 1886.
I got my lesson in OP (Other Peoples') reloads many years ago. Back then, M29 S&W 44 mags were scarce. I sold a brand spankin' new one to a friend mainly because I got tired of his begging. He went home and shot it using OP reloads. Round #1 demolished the high-$ pistol. Didn't put a scratch on my friend.
The fellow who made the OPs used a max charge of H110. However, in addition to a can of H110 there was a can of Bullseye on his bench. 'Nuff said. . . .
