Original 1886 no safety half cock.

[Willy-O]

I was just asked to look at an 1886 Winchester 40/65 made in 1893. The owner had recently inherited it from someone who had passed away. The metal looked brand new, then I realized that it had a very fine recent reblue job. The trigger pull was very heavy and the action stiff. It does not click into the safety notch, and when full cocked, the hammer does not seem to be as far back as other Winchesters I am familiar with. I disassembled it and could not see any broken parts, reassembled it and now it works smoothly except no safety notch and the hammer does not come back all the way for full cock. Full cock now is about half way back.When I had the hammer out, the hammer seems to have the normal half cock and full cock notches as normal. With the lower tang out and the hammer installed with the lower tang out of the gun it will go into half cock and full cock. When reassembled, no half cock or full cock all the way back. . . It now feeds, cocks and fires OK , but does not seem to have a safety half cock. I see no evidence of worn or broken internal parts. It does not have the set trigger. Any ideas? Willy-O

[Pete44ru]

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Welcome to the fire, Pardner !

Given it's age, and the fact that it's acting funky when fully assembled, I would first investigate wood shrinkage in the wrist area of the buttstock.

If that's allowing the lower tang to be pulled up a tad more than it should be, the closer (to the upper tang) position can interfere with trigger geometry.


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[Sixgun]

Somebody put a hammer from another model in your gun. They will fit but the notches are very close but not exact. ---6

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

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Welcome to the fire, Pardner !

Given it's age, and the fact that it's acting funky when fully assembled, I would first investigate wood shrinkage in the wrist area of the buttstock.

If that's allowing the lower tang to be pulled up a tad more than it should be, the closer (to the upper tang) position can interfere with trigger geometry.


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I agree. I've seen this before. The simple test is to remove the buttstock and see if it still does it. If it functions correctly then the wood has shrunk enough that when the tang screw is tighten it lifts the lower tang enough the trigger rises too. you may need to shim under the upper tang to make up for the shrinkage. I use thick card stock paper.

The only odd thing is you say the hammer doesn't go back as far as normal when cocked. That would also make more drag on the bottom of the bolt when levering.

[Willy-O]

Thanks for the welcome guys! I tried it with the butt stock off, and no change. The metal shows absolutely no wear, just some stock dings. It is a mystery why anyone would reblue it. Other than some heavy leading, the bore is perfect too. The hammer has the half cock and full cock notches too and if installed in the lower tang out of the gun, it half and full cocks normally. It does drag on the hammer when cycled too since the hammer does not catch in the full cock notch. The pix shows where the hammer rests when cocked; about half way back.

[Willy-O]

P1030921.JPG

I am having trouble posting pictures.

[Willy-O]

Two pix of problem.

[Willy-O]

I believe that it has the wrong hammer! The hammer does not have the relief in front to allow it to go forward to the safety notch when the carrier is all the way down with the lever closed.

[Willy-O]

I believe that it has the wrong hammer! See pix. Notice that the middle front of the hammer is not cut away. The pix shows the carrier in the position to allow the trigger in the safety notch.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I believe that it has the wrong hammer! See pix. Notice that the middle front of the hammer is not cut away. The pix shows the carrier in the position to allow the trigger in the safety notch.

I think the hammer is correct. however the notches may have been re-cut. About the only way to know is lay it over another hammer to compare.

There's another possible problem. If the trigger nose is too short as in it got damaged that would explain both the safety notch and full cock . If it is too short the hammer reaches the bolt before the trigger engages the safety notch and the full cock will be somewhat forward as you described.

BTW, the 86 and the 92 uses the same trigger.

[Willy-O]

Something is not right. It is in the safety notch.

[Willy-O]

Something is not right! it is in the safety notch here.

[Willy-O]

Could it be a wrong trigger with a too short latching surface? Something must have been lost and replaced with an improper part when it was being reblued. The original owner died and his grandson found this rifle put away in the attic in this condition.

[crs]

Gents,
Very interesting situation with which I have no experience or suggestions.

However, as a beginner, I would start at/with schematics of the action and try to see what is not right.
Are such schematics available to scale?

PS That appears to be a nice rifle and I wish you the best in getting back in full working order so you can post a Range Report.

[Willy-O]

Thanks for all the suggestions. It is a puzzler.

[Willy-O]

I am wondering if it originally had the set trigger and a standard trigger was substituted and is not the same fit.

[Pete44ru]

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According to this pic of a Model 1886 hammer for sale (Joe Salter), the hammer in your Model 1886 appears to be correct.


https://media.joesalter.com/ca/large/C1079/C1079-01.jpg

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[Willy-O]

Thanks Pete! I wonder if the model 71 trigger is the same? Might be worth a try.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Something is not right. It is in the safety notch.

It may be in the notch outside the gun but the hammer would be resting on the bolt when it's assembled
Someone has been whittling on that trigger. it is no where long enough.

This is what it should look like.

[Willy-O]

Steve: I think you are absolutely right! I believe the problem is the trigger nose is too short. Do you have one I could buy from you?

[Willy-O]

Steve/Nate: This trigger is only 1 1/8 inches and it should be 1 3/4". Now I have to fine one.